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Old 06-02-2011, 10:35 AM
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Milsim: Concept and limitations

As previously commented in this thread: http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=34958

With all the new technology coming out lately and the new players joining the community, I feel that we need to review our stand on what milsim really imply and what kind of limitations are we looking for.

Some of you mentioned the need to control the Rate of Fire (ROF) while other think it would become detrimental for the event time schedule.

So here it is. Time to open the can of worms and just go at it. Please keep the topic civilized and out of flaming posts. I will ask moderators to keep a tight look on this thread so we don't derail it.

Few things you guys are more than welcome to discuss about:
- Team division (how do you create/divide the teams)
- Communication (Radio protocols and requirements)
- Referee & field officials
- FPS
- ROF
- team SOPs and Structures
- Magazines limitations
- BB limitations
- etc.

P.S. If you are bringing a negative aspect on the topic, I would at least expect a solution/option to fix that aspect.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:46 AM
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i can see how High volt lipos can take away from the effect of Simulating combat. but thats like playing call of duty and being pissed because you got killed by a noob tube "203 launcher" it just a video game. they put these weapons in the game to be used not regarded with distane because its easier to kill with. if it gets your team kills who cares what it is. now with that said i think that if people want to put games together with a set ROF then all power to them. Or maybe if a player wants to use a low volt battery to keep his ROF low and more realistic, then that should be fine. my favorite quote is VINI VIDI VICI, that has nothing to do with this but my second favorite is "TO EACH THEIR OWN".

ARC OUT
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:01 AM
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I have one question... BB limitations? I mean, I understand the idea of mag limitations where you can only carry so many, etc. and correct me if I'm wrong here but if airsoft is a sport of honesty, and that is a fact I hope we can all agree on, then why limit the number of non-loaded BBs on someone's person? I just don't really see why it is necessary to tell someone that they can only have midcaps that can combined hold 400 rounds as well as only having 1,000 more rounds on them. Why not instead say 400 round of mags and they can only be reloaded once or twice or whatever. Maybe my understanding of the concept is wrong, but I don't see a problem with somebody carrying 15000 BBs, as long as they can only load so many. The reason I ask this question is really because it seems pointless to have to walk back to the car or staging area or whatever between games just to get more ammo that you could have been carrying. Thanks guys, and try not to hurt my feelings too much
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:07 AM
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Spanky, you actually answered your own question
If the players know he will have to walk back to his car, he will be much more conscious and careful about how many times he reloads his mags.so limiting the ammo is the same thing than limiting loaded mag but at a much different level. A guy reloading a mag within 5sec will be as affected as the guy reloading within 20sec. At the same time, limiting ammo also leave room for "real" ammo dumps and crate carriers...which is another milsim aspect of the game.

That being said, it is only my own opinion on why such rules should/could/would exist. I am sure other players might think otherwise.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky View Post
I have one question... BB limitations? I mean, I understand the idea of mag limitations where you can only carry so many, etc. and correct me if I'm wrong here but if airsoft is a sport of honesty, and that is a fact I hope we can all agree on, then why limit the number of non-loaded BBs on someone's person? The reason I ask this question is really because it seems pointless to have to walk back to the car or staging area or whatever between games just to get more ammo that you could have been carrying. Thanks guys, and try not to hurt my feelings too much
Correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding the loose ammo limit was to simulate limited supplies for a unit. Also it was to discourage spray and prey by SAW's and just constantly feeding bags of bb's into the box mag. That way everybody has an ammo restriction and to balance out SAWs from just suppressing every infantry personal until the infantry ran out of ammo. I think the other part of it was to make ammo caches or supply depots as objectives to capture and hold. So by limiting ammo teams would have to be more selective in choosing their engagements.
I also believe there was a pretty in depth thread about this somewhere.
I'll try to find it and edit it in.

NVM sniped by Blade
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:22 AM
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Come on Blade don't start this...

People need to worry about having the REQUIRED equipment before even attempting to play with complex rules. People not having their red rag pisses me off more than a 30BPS ROF.

PS. Yes Phil...I'm mad.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:49 AM
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Spanky the first milsim event that the Ruins Raiders held was Operation Broadsword last year and one of the things that we did was limit the amount of ammo players could carry as 10 fully loaded midcaps with no more than I believe 1 speed loader of ammunition for each phase of play (roughly 3 hours). Each commander was given 20,000 rounds in reserve in the morning and 20,000 rounds in reserve in the afternoon and the players were told to make do. Extra ammo was awarded for completing specific objectives as well as ammo being taken away for allowing your enemy to complete some. This was one of the things I heard the most positive feedback about for outside the box thinking.

Here is what it accomplished:

1. Players were not limited by ROF or Full-Auto, however if you were out you were out and it was up to your commander to re-supply those units that he could. Players were much more controlled with the way they approached engagements and by the end of the phase players were having a "We Were Soldiers" moment realizing that they were almost bone dry on ammo.
2. Commanders had to exert much more control of their people to ensure that strategic areas and objectives were controlled and supplied where less vital areas had to make do.
3. Players exercised A LOT more teamwork and used tactics rather than a simple pray and spray to facilitate recovery of wounded, squad movement etc.

In short, it added an unconventional feel to the event and it was something players hadn't experienced before. Almost everyone liked it as a part of play and it is something that we have considered and will do again for just that reason.

Just my .02 on the ammo limit and why it works.

I do have to agree with Urban that getting players correctly kitted out and learning how to use the radio properly would go a long way toward improving the milsim that we have .
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanMarine View Post
Come on Blade don't start this...

People need to worry about having the REQUIRED equipment before even attempting to play with complex rules. People not having their red rag pisses me off more than a 30BPS ROF.

PS. Yes Phil...I'm mad.
And I agree with you, which is why it is your chance to develop your idea about gear requirements because as you may know, you do not need to be a gear whore to be part of a milsim event

So since you are mad and watching this thread, what should be the proper milsim equipment???
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:03 PM
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i agree with the statements of the previous users however, when you limit ammo we have to keep in mind what it will take to complete objectives.

my ROTC battalion tooks us to an FTX and gave us paintball guns and 10 rounds per lane. do you know how hard its it to take out a squad strength insurgent team with 10 rounds.

im not saying that any of you will only let us have 10 rounds but lets not get too hefty on the restrictions.

unless your doing a post apocalyptic game then i can see maybe 2 mags and like 2 speed loaders as all the ammo you have.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:18 PM
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I really like the idea of limited ammo. It's difficult to enforce, but the theory is sound.

I also strongly believe that the consequences of being shot should be higher, both to inculcate more realistic behavior, and to reward firefight winners. I'd love to see an event that allows respawning ONLY at the top and bottom of each hour, which has the added benefit of simulating reinforcement or reserve units. Quick respawns (FOBs, walking 100 yards then reinserting, etc.) are unrealistic, unfair, and greatly discourage discipline and unit cohesion.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:22 PM
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I also strongly believe that the consequences of being shot should be higher, both to inculcate more realistic behavior, and to reward firefight winners. I'd love to see an event that allows respawning ONLY at the top and bottom of each hour, which has the added benefit of simulating reinforcement or reserve units. Quick respawns (FOBs, walking 100 yards then reinserting, etc.) are unrealistic, unfair, and greatly discourage discipline and unit cohesion.
yo sir are a genius, and i applaud you.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:33 PM
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I say we drop the Guns pick up big foam swords and shields and LARP the next OP. I call dibs on being a Warlock!
(Lightingbolt!) (lightingbolt!)
But really I think ammo limits are fine. And it's not like every event you go to will have these limitations. I like what Blade does and has the different series....AKA 1xx,2xx and 3xx, the 1xx is real lax and ammo limits are not a issue. 2xx and 3xx brings more milsim factors to play. Makes playing these events as real as possible.

As far as lipos go I myself use one in my KWA m4 and I will agree the ROF is a bit silly lol. But with using midcaps its not like you can go balls to the wall to long before you are out of ammo. I usually just use semi or if I do run auto i do controlled burst. I like the trigger response the lipo gives me. Does the make it less realistic maybe a tad, but for real I've used my lipo to my advantage many times. I remember one time I had a group of guys held down in a building and there was a window with a kinda plastic sheet covering it like a curtain. It was pretty thick plastic and most bb's just bounced off of it. But when I unloaded on it with the lipo the curtain swung open and I was able to get hits on 2 people standing inside the building. All in all I guess it really comes down to what you like. I've myself will only put a lipo in my kwa for that reason alone.

I think what makes Milsim more realistic is players attitudes and mindset towards the game itself. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:38 PM
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I think what makes Milsim more realistic is players attitudes and mindset towards the game itself. Just my 2 cents.
Exactly this. Player attitude is 99% of what makes Milsim what it is. However, we do know that as time goes on, so does the capabilities of our guns. As ROF gets too high, I think this will eventually become a safety concern, and this imo is the single biggest reason against very high rates of fire. It's not a matter of over-complicating the rules, it's about keeping players safe. I honestly have no idea where a hypothetical ROF cap would be placed, and there's also the problem of implementing this rule. But, if our concern is over the "realism" of such high ROF I don't see much of an issue there. Midcaps and possible ammo restrictions would sort most of those kinds of worries.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:43 PM
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As I said on the previous post, some guns are recommending LIPO use only...so are we going to reject those users because they followed their gun's recommendation and spent their money on a LIPO??

If so, I guess, I will join you AFTER, LIPOs are en vouge.

What is MILSIM you say?

It's the mindset that we are, were, going to be, RAMBOs on a secret, special mission for the military. I am a SEAL. I am a GREEN BERET. I am a DELTA member. I am a MARINE. We are all in some form either living out or replaying a fantasy. Maybe some people join as a cheap and easy way to train. Either way, MILSIM is about the acting that goes into game play.

I think too many restrictions will turn off people and we will slowly die off. With the attack in California (which I am sorry, WILL EVENTUALLY effect us here in Ohio and to wherever else might be listening in.) By turning people off, we are killing the sport.

I do like the mag size restriction. I don't like High caps for several reasons. Part of combat is...running out of a mag and needing to reload. Can't do that with high caps. Also, I HATE breaking noise discipline and having some one cranking a wheel that can give away a position.

I do like brother India's suggestion about the respawn. I think that all games should utilize the rope method. 3 knots and you are out. Having in-game field officials to spot check the knots will ensure compliance with the rule. Then...respawns can be more crucial.

I just don't think we should go too crazy with the "No you can'ts".......
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:08 PM
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6mm hosted a game at Springfield years ago before most of the people in this thread played airsoft. In this game, ammo both loaded and loose was restricted to 600 rounds (something around there.) If a unit in the field needed additional ammo, they needed to call for it on the net as a "airdrop" resupply. As far as I can remember the game went pretty well. But this is still trying to eliminate something that has existed in the world of airsoft for years, and that happens to be individuals who are not mission focused.

Our team goes after the objective, we don't give a damn about anything else if its not in Rules of Engagement or secondaries. If we can break a firefight to get there, we leave. All to many times have we found it difficult to do anything simply because of people aimlessly wondering the field shooting anything that doesn't look like their color. Some of the more interesting games have been the ones where we can't tell who is friend or foe, and chance meetings in the woods are often tense stand-offs, not furious engagements which fail to benefit either side.

Its 100% the mindset of the players involved. Not the ROF of their guns, or even equipment. Those that have a serious mindset will follow suit with the typical aspects of milsim which include a radio with knowledge on how to use it, proper attire and gear, and understanding of their objective base, etc. etc.

How many teams operate with an SOP? Such as casualty collection point guidelines with a medical hierarchy. Guidelines for breaking contact, movement, shutting the hell up, etc. An SOP that binds them to following the mission even if it requires them to guard a VIP well behind friendly lines for a few hours with no trigger time.

So, where are the SOP threads here on AO? Squad structure and movement threads? I know some of us who have taken the time to write/formulate and plan SOP's would LOVE to aid others. There are some communication threads that really helped out, but the ideas behind them never flowed over.

I'm going to break this down, but not as a personal attack!

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What is MILSIM you say?

It's the mindset that we are, were, going to be, RAMBOs on a secret, special mission for the military. I am a SEAL. I am a GREEN BERET. I am a DELTA member. I am a MARINE. We are all in some form either living out or replaying a fantasy. Maybe some people join as a cheap and easy way to train. Either way, MILSIM is about the acting that goes into game play.
NO! You are not a Seal, you are not Sylvester Stallone. Almost all of the time, you are grunt. You have orders to do something that may not always seem glamorous. Who wants to guard a pile of munitions when they can be shooting badguys? No one, but it needs to be done. It is about acting, but not the same acting from sensationalized media and Hollywood movies.

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I think too many restrictions will turn off people and we will slowly die off. With the attack in California (which I am sorry, WILL EVENTUALLY effect us here in Ohio and to wherever else might be listening in.) By turning people off, we are killing the sport.
The legal restriction in California is totally different than the ones some wish to seek here. Although I don't agree with ROF restrictions, I see restrictions on Gear, Radio, BDU and the like as beneficial. I don't want to see 300+ games with players only interested at taking pot shots at each other and no actual movement between lines. If Milsim games dropped down to the 60-80 range where they used to be, I'd be totally okay with that.

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I do like brother India's suggestion about the respawn. I think that all games should utilize the rope method. 3 knots and you are out. Having in-game field officials to spot check the knots will ensure compliance with the rule. Then...respawns can be more crucial.
This has been done before, and actually was an interesting way of allowing team dynamics to take route. Mostly because it forced players to seek each other out once dead and rejoin as a squad. But the last time I saw this implemented (a few years ago), I also saw many people breaking the rules and going back into the fight before they were cleared. This mainly came from the fact that there where far too few game operators on the field to enforce the rule.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:18 PM
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- Team division (how do you create/divide the teams)
There needs to be a distinctive way to discern teams. I dont thik Green vs tan is bad.


- Communication (Radio protocols and requirements)
Having a radio is not mandated by most Armies but it is a good safety concern in Airsoft.

- Referee & field officials
I think small groups could be tasked with this per scenario, even Open Events could benefit from having OCs. 6mm Militia has used OCs at all our events to great success.

- FPS
Its fine where it is!

- ROF
I hear all these guys say they use the Lipos for snappy trigger responce. Well then SEMI ONLY for Rifleman.

- team SOPs and Structures
Over half the openplays are individuals with no team affiliations. Assign them to a team?

- Magazines limitations/BB limitations
Very hard to enforce but works well when implemented.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:34 PM
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Not so much BB restrcitions ... but the idea of RE-SUPPLY gets you closer to MILSIM.

Re-supply of all needed items:
  • Water (real)
  • Food (real)
  • Ammo (real)
  • Medical Supplies (simulated)
  • Spares (simulated)
Take your pick.

I think the concept of re-supply would be an excellect way to control ROF too.

Put a scenario together that limits mags and requires the capturing supplies to proceed to the next scenario. If not captured, then they need to decide to scrub the mission and call for an extraction (i.e. lose) or get creative and keep going after the supplies.

Third option would be a suicide mission, skip the supplies and win the next scenario but lose the war.

Pretty much fun if you ask me.

I've not seen this done effectively yet.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:40 PM
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I was going say something about referee, but Merc beat me to it. I also agree that referees should act like an OC (Observer-Controller) in the Army. They don't have to wear big visible yellow vests, and they should act as part of the team they are observing i.e. take cover and move with them. I know this may be too much for referees, but one of the major tasks of OC is to conduct AAR right after each scenario - this is how the Army becomes so powerful. They learn from their experiences and correct their mistakes. We can help beginners learn faster by doing this in Airsoft.


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- Referee & field officials
I think small groups could be tasked with this per scenario, even Open Events could benefit from having OCs. 6mm Militia has used OCs at all our events to great success.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:43 PM
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Not so much BB restrcitions ... but the idea of RE-SUPPLY gets you closer to MILSIM.

Re-supply of all needed items:
  • Water (real)
  • Food (real)
  • Ammo (real)
  • Medical Supplies (simulated)
  • Spares (simulated)
Take your pick.

I think the concept of re-supply would be an excellect way to control ROF too.

Put a scenario together that limits mags and requires the capturing supplies to proceed to the next scenario. If not captured, then they need to decide to scrub the mission and call for an extraction (i.e. lose) or get creative and keep going after the supplies.

Third option would be a suicide mission, skip the supplies and win the next scenario but lose the war.

Pretty much fun if you ask me.

I've not seen this done effectively yet.
i am all for this and would LOVE to see it in use at events in the near future
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:50 PM
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EDIT: I completly disagree with making it that those who have high ROF should be disiplend for it, making them lower it down or only using there rifle on Simi auto. Ridicule-us.

Good idea Rook. I of course think limiting the amount of water and food one is alowed on the field isn't the best, that will just create problems. But I understand what you are getting at.
Some teams in the past have used "Medic Cards" (STACC did this and some of us saw this at a WWII event in georgia, where I'm sure STACC came up with the idea, brilliant system by the way, but alas, only if no one is cheating :-( ) the "Medical Supplies" can be those cards, each team or squad is only given so many of these cards, once a card is used, it is useless afterwards UNLESS you can get a supply drop, then you will be replenished of your Med Cards and maybe get more.
The same for Ammo. Fight to get to a "DZ" that has all of the equipment or just some differnt things like it Just has Ammo, or mags, or "Med kits" maybe the chance to get to use a vehcile.

I have two questions regarding Ammo and Magizines for a sim like this (anyone can answer) the way I picture it is, I have to put all my bbs with a bunch of other peoples bbs and the same with my magazines, I am seeing my mags and bbs being stolen as a result of this..... (even if they are labled). if there is another way this was to be done, please help me clear that table hahaha.

In regards to Equipment and loadouts, I think we need to focus on stuff like this first before ROF and etc... the loadouts and gear should all pertain to the event, if it is modern, they should only have modern gear that at least LOOKS legit enough. if we are doing a special event that is for a certain time periode, then that's what should be done no mismatched crap, if they didn't wear DCUs then no DCUs, if they didn't have MultiCam or ACU, then no one should be allowed to wear those, terrorist or rebel loadouts should look like such. I am not a big fan of Contractor loadouts I only use that if I am getting to hot but they do have a good use on the field. There of course will need to be some leanence (sp) at first, but given time it would work.
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Last edited by Teddy Bear; 06-02-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:03 PM
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I think the real problem lies in some people not reading the rules and requirements before attending an event and expecting to be accommodated for their lack of preparation. If you don't like the no hi-cap rule, don't go. It's as simple as that. I see some hard core milsim events posted and I know not to go because it's not my cup of tea at this time. People rip on the hardcore guys for their expectations and want to wear whatever and use whatever at the more strict events. When's the last time you've seen a hardcore guy show up at a relaxed event or open play and demand that everyone go with lowcaps and semi-auto only? It's a two way street. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to play at events that are middle of the road, but if someone wants to try something new to make it more realistic, more power to them. If I don't like it, I don't go. How hard is that?

*Sorry, confused this thread with another.

Last edited by Pappy; 06-02-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Stupidity
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strikers_blade View Post
And I agree with you, which is why it is your chance to develop your idea about gear requirements because as you may know, you do not need to be a gear whore to be part of a milsim event

So since you are mad and watching this thread, what should be the proper milsim equipment???
Required items for a MILSIM event.

Goggles
x2 Red Rags
Water carried onto the field into any form (pouch, bottle, hydro)
Radio
Gun
Mid caps 10 or less
Matching faction uniform (Green vs Tan)

You can't require a gear type. Not all militaries are up to date on equipment (helmet, PCs, pouches etc). You could argue that for radios but they're more than just a tool for team coordination. If it's one of your 3xx series event, include a ROF restriction.

To make sure people have the above, compile an event checklist that is REQUIRED for event check in. As for enforcing the rules on the field, well....some players can't govern themselves then "strict" staff members will have to ref the event.
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Last edited by UrbanMarine; 06-02-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:21 PM
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I really like the idea of limited ammo. It's difficult to enforce, but the theory is sound.

I also strongly believe that the consequences of being shot should be higher, both to inculcate more realistic behavior, and to reward firefight winners. I'd love to see an event that allows respawning ONLY at the top and bottom of each hour, which has the added benefit of simulating reinforcement or reserve units. Quick respawns (FOBs, walking 100 yards then reinserting, etc.) are unrealistic, unfair, and greatly discourage discipline and unit cohesion.
I disagree, this usually ends up incubating camping and hinders movement. I think one aspect that we need reward in a game is movement. It keeps the game interesting and encourages teamwork. Most people's logic will be to camp since they don't wanna sit out for 45 minutes for an event they paid $40 for resulting in stagnant games.

I think maybe one of the goals for these restrictions would be to enact rules that reward behavior that encourages Mil-Sim type game play.

Also as a side note, I know this intended for serious Mil-Sim games and is not all encompassing but I think it is also important not to go too far, where there's too many rules and regulations to worry about and making the games more stressful and less enjoyable.
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Last edited by Loose; 06-02-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:43 PM
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I personally don't care about ROF, if the player wants to spray, constantly reload and run out of ammo that's their problem.
The only restriction I would say is fair would be making it so that anyone under 18 can't use an AEG with a ROF over "X" amount. ( just like the current FPS limit being 400FPS is for ages 18 and over)

There isn't a way to stop players from switching batteries after they have been checked, just like there isn't a way to stop players from changing their FPS after chrono. ( I've seen players with PTW's swap cylinders after chrono).
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Bear View Post

I have two questions regarding Ammo and Magizines for a sim like this (anyone can answer) the way I picture it is, I have to put all my bbs with a bunch of other peoples bbs and the same with my magazines, I am seeing my mags and bbs being stolen as a result of this..... (even if they are labled). if there is another way this was to be done, please help me clear that table hahaha.
iv been thinking about this and i came up with a few ideas.
1. event coordonators include a "bb charge" in the event entry fee and use it to buy a few bags per team (depending on ammo limit) of both .20 and .25 bbs and use these at supply points.
2. post a reff in charge of the supply point and simply do something like a coat check, give the reff your supplies and name, he gives you a number on a tag or piece of paper and lables your stuff with the same number. when you go to re supply you give the ref the ticket and he give you the ammo. this could add another level of control as well as the ref could dole out ammo based on the progress of the game ( more objectives = more ammo per person, or something like that)
3. run over to a surplus store and pick up some 50 cal ammo boxes and locks, each squad leader is given a designated box for his or her squad to use as their "ammo locker" at the supply point. at the end of the event all boxes and keys are collected for use at the next event

just a few ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy View Post
If I don't like it, I don't go. How hard is that?
and pappy wins the best answer if you dont like a movie why would you buy it on dvd? same applies to events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose View Post
I disagree, this usually ends up incubating camping and hinders movement. I think one aspect that we need reward in a game is movement. It keeps the game interesting and encourages teamwork. Most people's logic will be to camp since they don't wanna sit out for 45 minutes for an event they paid $40 for resulting in stagnant games.
thats why the rules would incoperate a reward for capturing additional supply points. this in addition to the standard objectives would make games more mobile imho. capture and secure a drop zone, take out a HVT and take out the enemy supply point or drop zone, sounds like a busy round to me. more so than capture the base

on the ROF thing, we have no right to tell people what not to buy so if the want to run a gun that shoots a solid stream of plastic, to each their own. but they will run through their alloted mags alot faster than me
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Last edited by storm401; 06-02-2011 at 04:52 PM.
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