Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

[Torque]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1261...?mod=yhoofront

I never cease to be amazed... I like this quote:

"Who were the lame engineers who came up with a system that runs without encryption? Even the graduates of the local high school programming courses know better than to leave to chance an important security hole."

[Teddy Bear]

that is bull ****, and embarrasing, If it's true, well, I guess we got to carless

[bishopMP]

Originally Posted by Torque

"Who were the lame engineers who came up with a system that runs without encryption? Even the graduates of the local high school programming courses know better than to leave to chance an important security hole."

THAT would be the lowest bidder,

[Ozzsclan]

funny thing is that crap happens far to offten ask the 2 million Veterans whos identy basicaly were handed out like candy with the Va Empoyee who's computer was stolen,
Even Worse hows this for bull$****, haveing Congresinal hearings on weither or not to buy ...(yes that means purchase) more ammo or body armour for the troops,
you say the countrys going to hell in a handbasket ?
F uck me we were express mailed there ...

[CaineHazen]

Time to update my resume, I' sure there will be some openings in the civilian sector soon. Especially since I know some encryption...

[Teddy Bear]

Originally Posted by Ozzsclan

funny thing is that crap happens far to offten ask the 2 million Veterans whos identy basicaly were handed out like candy with the Va Empoyee who's computer was stolen,
Even Worse hows this for bull$****, haveing Congresinal hearings on weither or not to buy ...(yes that means purchase) more ammo or body armour for the troops,
you say the countrys going to hell in a handbasket ?
F uck me we were express mailed there ...

Carelessness..... Same day, Air dilevery, on a steel, silver, and gold platter made form the reascources we wouldn't use to help our troops.

"When your going through Hell, keep going".-- Winston Churchill

[Karma]

Insert 'our UAV is online' joke here.

[UrbanMarine]

I bet all the CODers are like I wanna hack a UAV wtf lolz.

[Dougrich]

This is what happens when you relie to heavily on technology. I'm not dissing tech, but what happens if say Russia or are our new overlords the chinese make and give away portable EMP weaponery? Our wonderful tech goes away and we're in the stoneage. The majority of our current airpower would = million dollar lawn decorations along with a lot our ground vechiles.

I'm not in the least suprised by this in fact I was suprised our eyes in the skies weren't hacked earlier in the conflicts in Afganistan or Iraq. Technology is a double edged sword you relie on it to much and it becomes your weakness and if you don't relie enough on it you'll have a cruise missle entering your throne room window with 2000 pounds of your dead.

[ninja_fish]

lets not panic folks. I'm sure there will be an encryption implemented soon enough.

Also its not exactly like the insurgents hacked (aka gained control of) the drones, they simply tuned into the video feeds. This is an evolution of cyber warfare and now the balls in the USA's hands to take the next step.

Originally Posted by Dougrich

but what happens if say Russia or are our new overlords the chinese make and give away portable EMP weaponery?

thats pretty far fetched amigo.

[Fish20]

Don't most of our airplanes/tanks/ have manual backups still? For example, can't an F/A-18 pilot even if electronic systems fail? I'd hope to God that our planes aren't at the mercy of an all electronics control system. I know that if the computer on board failed it'd be a total ***** to fly something like the F/A-18 (or most modern planes), but there must be SOME fail safe.

@ Ozzclan, the Congress has always controlled the purse-strings when it comes to war spending. Our country already spends a LOT of money on its military. In fact, we spend 41% of the globe's expenditure on military. http://www.globalissues.org/article/...itary-spending Personally, I think we need to decrease military spending if nothing else. I agree troops need better body armor, and maybe more ammo (though we still seem to be set there). I'm of the opinion that our military spending needs to shift itself in order to be more focused on current and forseeable threats. But, just as a side note, there has always been Congressional hearings on war spending. Even going back to the Continental Congress. That's just how it works in a Democratic, Capitalist, country.

---on the original topic---

While they didn't hack into and "control" the drones, having the ability to see video feeds from them is a damn important thing. You notice that the US has predator drones watching a house for a day or two, get the hell out of there. You see that US forces know you're staging an ambush, get out of there too. It lets the insurgency know who's gunning for them, when, and where. Of course that's not fool proof, but it can be very helpful. I'm not rooting for their side, please don't misread what I type. But this just goes to show we're fighting sophisticated forces, they know what they're doing.

[operator863]

Also we hafto realize, where do some of the best computer people come from? India, and THE MIDDLE EAST, i was expecting something like this. My Major and i had discussed it when he came home. it was a matter of time.

[D-Boy]

Fish is right. This problem is already resolved. No need for airsofters to lose sleep over this.

[NegSpace]

Yeah, they can intercept video surveillance, but they know we're watching anyway without it. Obviously it would be better if they couldn't see our video, but if they relocate... we'd see it still. Honestly, it would scare the bejesus out of me if I were an insurgent who could watch my enemy watch me and still do nothing about it.

Ultimately, I don't think this is a huge deal. Worst case scenario is stated above. Best case scenario is someone who successfully taps into a Predator's camera and says, "'Hey, that looks like our hut. Oh. OH SHI-' boom."

[Spectre]

Don't confuse ethnicity for ideology. Just because an individual is Muslim doesn't mean they condole the actions of those who oppose us in this war. India isn't a waring state either, and in a totally different region then the Middle Easts. Lets keep wild accusations out of the conversation.

Its a standard tactic of war, you take your enemies greatest strength and turn it into their greatest weakness. And in terms of technological development, bugs always exist. Fixing them is where innovation comes into play.

[Dougrich]

Originally Posted by the_ninja_fish

thats pretty far fetched amigo.

True, but I'm not talk as in presentence but in the future. There not exactly friendly towards us. The Russians in particular have supplied the Irans with weapons and if you recall from when we first entered Iraq they had supplied though in limited quanity NVGs to Iraqi forces.


I'm not predicting the next world war or anything. I just leary of Russia and China. They supply our enemies and we supply theres. It's merely just an observation of what could possible take place in the future especail with our drive to have less boots on the ground and more machines.

[Fish20]

Dougrich, we're just playing a new, "friendlier" version of the Cold War game. Besides, China needs us as much as we need them right now. Russia, well Russia should see a nice boom with the oil industry, not to mention their gas and oil companies are mainly state run. This is off topic, but I thought I'd throw it in there for something to think about.

[blacksheep_p]

Dougrich, there is a long history of super powers providing technology and weapons to third world parties to later have them become enemies...

In the 80's the United States supplied both the Mujahadeen and the Iraqi government with weapons and funds. In the case of the Mujahadeen they later turned into what is now the modern day Taliban and Al Queda, and they are still using the weapons we gave them today against our troops in the form of Stinger Missile platforms and Soviet era weaponry. And in the case of Iraq, we supplied their war against Iran for nearly 8 years in the 80's. Then later in 1991 we had to go into a conflict with Iraq and destroy the weapons we paid for, and again in 2003 in the current conflict. This happens all the time, it is a way for the world powers to keep the balance of power and not let one country get too powerful. If you really want to scare yourself, read some modern history, some stuff during the Cold War, some of the things the United States funded alone will keep you up at night.

As for this whole UAV thing... It is about time something like this happened to be honest with you. We have been fighting these wars with this sense of superiority, and it is about time something like this happens to make everyone pay attention. Just because they live in mud huts, does not mean they are stupid. I remember when they were shooting Pakistani and US hybrid Stinger missiles at my C-130 on my way back in country from leave in 2004.


As a fun side note, I was on of those vets that had their identities stolen... ( sigh ) That and the UAV thing both just go to show that you always have to hold your government accountable for their stupidity, otherwise dumb things like this happen.

[PyroPenguin]

Although mentioned by some, lets not confuse hacking with using existing, off-the-shelf-tools to view an unencrypted feed. While having the bad guys view feed can be bad, what if this was a trick? Leave some unencrypted to let the baddies think we are looking in a different place? Perhaps it is like using codes when broadcasting on an open channel? It certainly might a case of a brain-fart and forgetting comm 101...all traffic should be coded or encrypted to prevent enemy eavesdropping.

While I cannot speak directly about the fighters and helicopters; my brother-in-law flies for the Navy (TACAMO if you know what that is). He took me on a tour at Tinker in OKC of the base and jet (E6). The command and control planes have a fine webbing of gold in the cockpit windows to shield the plane from EMP attacks. While he didn't go into detail, he said all the systems are shielded against EMP and have (at least) double-redundant backups systems in case of failure.
Here is the first reference I could find.
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/...pecial/e6.html
The E-6 is the airborne portion of the TACAMO Communications System. It provides survivable communication links between the National Command Authority (NCA) and Strategic Forces. The E-6 is a derivative of the commercial Boeing 707 aircraft. Its a long range, air refuelable aircraft equipped with four CFM-56-2A-2 high bypass ratio fan/jet engines with thrust reversers. The weapon system is electromagnetic pulse hardened.

[shadowsnpr360]

yeah it takes $26million to produce it and $26 to stop them

[Ozzsclan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091218/...as_cyberattack
wow ...simply put ...wow ...i feel allkindsa safe now ...just like Randy Weaver Did when the "dogooders" murdered his wife and son, and the lowest bidder took over, and like **** Chenny shootin a judge,
agian you think this is bad " we're on an express eleveator ride to hell" woohoooo
a favourite quote here ..."shes gone from suck to blow" Spaceballs

[strikers_blade]

Why are you guys so surprised? First, they hacked the "transfer" between the footage waypoints, not the Drone itself, right? Even if they would have hacked directly into the drone and would have controlled it, you guys need to realize for every thing we do, someone else will find a way to undo it. Personally, I don't think the problem is the hacking by itself, it is the fact that they got caught or even more, took so long to hack it.

For every military gooroo out there planning an electronic warfare (i.e. drones, unmanned vehicles, weapons, etc), there is a hacker somewhere trying to take control on the whole system and either mess it up or turning it at his own advantage. Nothing really new here anyway...

[UrbanMarine]

Now I have to remake my tinfoil hat. Way to go government with your fake walls of security.........

[BIRDSTRIKE]

Sorry for the long post I can't not address these issues...

Originally Posted by Fish20

Don't most of our airplanes/tanks/ have manual backups still? For example, can't an F/A-18 pilot even if electronic systems fail? I'd hope to God that our planes aren't at the mercy of an all electronics control system. I know that if the computer on board failed it'd be a total ***** to fly something like the F/A-18 (or most modern planes), but there must be SOME fail safe.

Nope... Most birds are fly by wire. Makes them more responsive, less prone to failure from stupid human tricks and in some cases like the B2 flyable at all. Also most of the planes are not both fly by wire and cable operated (like grandpa used to make them). The last major fighter I know of (I could be wrong) that has cable backups is the F15. Oh and the A10 but it ha backups for its backups backups.

F16 loses it engine (I am looking at you Pratt and Whitney) and the emergency power unit fails to kick on... the things becomes a lawn dart. You lose control surfaces, hydraulic pressure, everything. The ejection seat still works though.

On the F22 a test pilot got locked in the plane on the ground for 5 hours when the canopy would not open. The base fire department had to take chain saws to the thing to get the poor bloke out... http://www.f-16.net/news_article1768.html.

Onto "hacking"...

As far as the insurgents "hacking" our UAVs. From the looks of it, the simply intercepted the video feed. Not really a hack if you intercept an unencrypted feed. Its like if green got on tans channel at a game,they are not hacking just listening to the channel. It should be Insurgents listen to UAV feed or sniff UAV feed. They did NOT gain any control over the drones, just got to see what the drones saw. The feed probably was not encrypted to save money, or bandwidth or processing power on either side of the transmission. I almost grantee they have already fixed it.

And now for the EMPs...

As for the the OH NOES they have an EMP!!! You guys play to much MW2. If you EMP your enemy you EMP yourself, unless you Faraday cage everything (good luck with that). There is not an enemy on the planet who wants to kill our technology that bad, how would they make their jihad videos or phone calls, or anything else but shoot at us.

Also a lot of our stuff is hardened for EMPs to the tune of the Soviets nuking us back in the cold war. Most civilian stuff (read stuff nonstate actors, aka our current active threat, use) is not hardened at all.

And last fun fact, the most effective way to make an EMP big enough to mess with large scale military operations is with a nuke. You can count on us raining fire from the heavens should anybody be dumb enough to send one of those our direction. With a nuke, the EMP is the least of your worries.

Steps off soap box...

[Fish20]

Birdstrike -

Wow, I'm *really* surprised by that. I thought for sure they had some sort of back up built into them in case something failed. I don't know how comfortable I'd be trusting myself to a computer. Of course there's always the ejection seat, least that works. (But then if the canopy doesn't open you're dead anyways). I realize that fly by wire is better, heck even my car has power steering But at least if my cars brain goes dead I can still steer, albeit it totally sucks.

As for the "hacking," I agree it wasn't hacking at all. But being able to effectively see what the enemy is seeing is a damn good way of choosing when and where to fight. Example: Set an ambush up, scan through what the drones are seeing. If you know they don't see you, you can be somewhat certain that your ambush is in a good place. (Of course the Coalition forces (or NATO forces if you're in Afghanistan) aren't just using drones for recon, but you get the drift). It's still a big loop hole, and surprising. Above anything else, it shows how sophisticated the enemy is.