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  #1  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:49 PM
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How to calculate your gun's FPS with different BB weights

Disregarded.
BoltRig's FPS Converter
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Last edited by Boltrig; 09-27-2010 at 08:27 PM. Reason: non-working link
  #2  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:59 PM
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Even though if you use standard physics with trying to figure out BB distance, FPS doesn't affect range whether you want to think it or not.

It doesn't matter if you gun shoots 280 or 380, it's about the barrel and hop-up. I've seen and still witness Stock TM guns out range EI guns. It's a 100 FPS difference and yet it still happens.

I wish physics was that easy. But it isn't.

Also, ASGI's FPS ratings aren't necessarily correct. If at all, just head to AS or another Ohio Retailer, Everyone who works in these stores play on the field. I'm pretty sure they won't mind shooting your gun to do a final determination on what your gun is shooting.

I know my gun at AirsoftSmith straight out of my box shot 395. But with hop-up adjusted to my liking (with .25s), My gun shoots 380 consistent.

I'll wait for MechEng or another Engineer/Physics Major to wrap it up
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M0nk3y View Post
Even though if you use standard physics with trying to figure out BB distance, FPS doesn't affect range whether you want to think it or not.

It doesn't matter if you gun shoots 280 or 380, it's about the barrel and hop-up. I've seen and still witness Stock TM guns out range EI guns. It's a 100 FPS difference and yet it still happens.

I wish physics was that easy. But it isn't.

Also, ASGI's FPS ratings aren't necessarily correct. If at all, just head to AS or another Ohio Retailer, Everyone who works in these stores play on the field. I'm pretty sure they won't mind shooting your gun to do a final determination on what your gun is shooting.

I know my gun at AirsoftSmith straight out of my box shot 395. But with hop-up adjusted to my liking (with .25s), My gun shoots 380 consistent.

I'll wait for MechEng or another Engineer/Physics Major to wrap it up
See: (filler)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
So how does extra FPS affect my range? Right now though the easiest thing that I can do is calculate some range using basic physics, making certain assumptions. For starters we'll ignore hop-up, as we know it increases range, and I'm not going to sit here and work out higher level physics using specific air density and fluid dynamics. This model assumes a curved flight path, I know hop-up produces a straighter path, but you'll be surprised how close the figures from this model match to real-life.
Also I was saying if you did not know your gun's FPS, in your case you do, so you're fine to use the calculator
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Last edited by Boltrig; 09-27-2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: forgot [/QUOTE] :P
  #4  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:09 PM
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It's called a chrono.
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  #5  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Son of Liberty View Post
It's called a chrono.
poor man's chrono < FPS Calculator < Real Chrono

IMO it is easier to insert a few numbers than pull out a chrono or take out a coke can and guesstimate.

Saves you a trip to the store if you want to buy BBs to chrono with.
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
poor man's chrono < FPS Calculator < Real Chrono

IMO it is easier to insert a few numbers than pull out a chrono or take out a coke can and guesstimate.

Saves you a trip to the store if you want to buy BBs to chrono with.
Like I said before, you can still just give your gun to a local airsoft store, and kindly ask them to chrono your gun.

You then have an actual reading of what your gun is shooting. So when it comes time to actually play at an event you aren't surprised that your gun shot over 400 when a calculator said you didn't. The amount of time out of your way to go visit a store and chrono is worth the time; so that you won't waste your own time when you drive 2 hours to an event to find out that your gun isn't allowed.

Also, every Local Ohio store is owned/employed by people that play airsoft as well. We all love talking about airsoft...so take the time and make sure it's right.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:21 PM
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I kinda like the beer can calculation. Maybe SPEAR would allow those at their open events. MonK3y can you check on that? Ill bring the beers.
  #8  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M0nk3y View Post
Like I said before, you can still just give your gun to a local airsoft store, and kindly ask them to chrono your gun.

You then have an actual reading of what your gun is shooting. So when it comes time to actually play at an event you aren't surprised that your gun shot over 400 when a calculator said you didn't. The amount of time out of your way to go visit a store and chrono is worth the time; so that you won't waste your own time when you drive 2 hours to an event to find out that your gun isn't allowed.

Also, every Local Ohio store is owned/employed by people that play airsoft as well. We all love talking about airsoft...so take the time and make sure it's right.
You may find out what your gun is chronoing at any way you like. If you're someone like me, who has school and a job, I don't have time to go to a local airsoft store.

On another thought. Before you use this calculator you should already know what your gun chrono's with .2's so you wouldn't have to worry about being over the chrono limit. I doubt you are going to put .12's into your gun so everything would be a lower FPS. This isn't supposed to replace an actual chrono, it's supposed to be a quick alternative to get an idea of what you will shoot with a higher gram bb.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:32 PM
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You can buy a basic chrono for $40 and have accurate readings. Why even bother with the Coke Can Test?

Base your results on accurate data instead of guessing and estimates.

Also, the people promoting the Coke Can test as an accurate means of gauging anything are full of crap and thus promoting faulty data.
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Last edited by Texx; 09-27-2010 at 07:35 PM.
  #10  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
You may find out what your gun is chronoing at any way you like. If you're someone like me, who has school and a job, I don't have time to go to a local airsoft store.

On another thought. Before you use this calculator you should already know what your gun chrono's with .2's so you wouldn't have to worry about being over the chrono limit. I doubt you are going to put .12's into your gun so everything would be a lower FPS. This isn't supposed to replace an actual chrono, it's supposed to be a quick alternative to get an idea of what you will shoot with a higher gram bb.
I just don't see the reason of wanting to calculate what you gun is shooting with a higher gram BB. I guess it's an interesting tool, it's just something that ignores alot of laws and just puts things out of proportions.

I switch to a .25 BB for a reason, range...If you are really concerned about how hot your gun is shooting with any kind of BB you are in this sport for the wrong reasons...

That's just me.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:45 PM
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Ok I'm not sure you guys are getting the point of the calculator. There IS a download link at the bottom of the post, it contains an .HTML file which when you open will bring you to the calculator interface. You from there input what your gun chronos at with the bb you chrono'd with, you then enter the bb you want to know what you would chrono with and then enter the joules and press calculate, you will then see the muzzle velocity with your new bb.

EX: You know your gun chrono's 328 FPS with a .2g BB. You press calculate and come out with 1 Joule. You go to the next set of boxes, input the bb you want to know what you chrono with (for this example i'll be using a .25), so input .25 in the BB section, then input 1 joule as the power. Press calculate and it will come out with 293.37 FPS as your muzzle velocity with a .25.

This calculator is based on physics with the information YOU input on what YOUR gun shoots. There is no guessing involved. The first part of the post was for if you had absolutely no idea what your gun shoots with any bb.

I don't see how you would be in a sport for the wrong reasons if you want to find this out. If I shoot 380 with a .2, why would I be in this sport for the wrong reasons if I want to know what I would chrono at with a .28 or .3?
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:52 PM
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Like I said $40 will buy a chrono. No calculator needed.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
Like I said $40 will buy a chrono. No calculator needed.
Sorry I don't have $40 to spend on a chrono, and I don't see why I would go spend $40 to see what I chrono at with a heavier BB weight.

The equation used in the calculator is the same that is used in a chronograph. The only difference is that it is simulating your gun shooting (by taking energy output by your gun and the weight of your BB) so you don't have to do it yourself.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:57 PM
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Boltrig, this may not be the site for you. I recall your CrazY Sniper thread. Get it the game, or off the site.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:59 PM
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I know you intended to be helpful with this post, however your limited knowledge of the subject is showing here. There are several reasons why this is NOT a viable guide for either FPS or FPS related range.

1.) You are assuming that statistically all retail locations are properly representing their products with the correct FPS. For this to be reasonable, each manufacture would HAVE to chrono their own guns with their own chronographs using a standard BB weight (or better yet, switch to a much more reasonable Joule based system in stead of a mass dependent velocity system). However, this is not the case. I know for a fact that eVike inflates their claimed velocity readings using .12 gram BB's. Many other retailers simply take the manufacturer's specs straight from the wholesale website. This is not very accurate simply because most clone guns (and may higher end guns) are made in batches and all vary in compression, composition, etc from batch to batch. This means they will always vary in FPS. Someone who knows what they are buying knows what the FPS will be because they've been around long enough to know what to expect. They take it to be their responsibility to regulate their FPS so it agrees with the field they play with.

2.) You just simply cannot predict the flight path and behavior of an Airsoft gun using elementary physics equations. Do you even know where those equations were derived from? Do you understand what they where intended for? These equations are useless for someone who wants true data out of their setup because it lacks the variables for backspin over/under pressure, humidity related air resistance. Humidity related resistance is almost never linear. So being a powered function, FPS drops off quick after leaving the muzzle. This is where the hopup comes in. To get the fullest knowledge out of your rifle, you need to know more about projectile motion in more complicated systems. Want to read about it? Pick up Fowles & Cassiday's Analytical Mechanics Seventh Edition from Amazon. An excellent book, one reference I will never throw away.

3.) To be honest, this little guide will cause event organizers like us hell. Why? Because people will read this, think it reasonable, then use it to substantiate their "he's a cheater" claims on the field when they themselves have an extremely unhealthy understanding of their ballistics. The only true way to know the range and accuracy of your weapon is to collect field data. There are only so many things equations and computers can do before scientists have to become cleaver enough to devise an experiment. Luckily for us, its not too difficult to figure out...

For those who are concerned about their FPS and don't have time to "go to a store" I suggest this: Instead of buying another Airsoft gun (which you truly don't need, be honest) buy a chrono first. Not only is it a smart idea, but it is crucial in tech-ing your own guns. Knowing the true FPS of your gun and knowing how to tweak out compression can mean that you can reduce your spring tension in the gearbox, which reduces wear and tear. This increase the life of your rifle. You can't do any of this without an accurate (within 10-20 FPS) read of your muzzle velocity.
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Last edited by Spectre; 09-27-2010 at 08:05 PM.
  #16  
Old 09-27-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
Ok I'm not sure you guys are getting the point of the calculator. There IS a download link at the bottom of the post, it contains an .HTML file which when you open will bring you to the calculator interface. You from there input what your gun chronos at with the bb you chrono'd with, you then enter the bb you want to know what you would chrono with and then enter the joules and press calculate, you will then see the muzzle velocity with your new bb.

EX: You know your gun chrono's 328 FPS with a .2g BB. You press calculate and come out with 1 Joule. You go to the next set of boxes, input the bb you want to know what you chrono with (for this example i'll be using a .25), so input .25 in the BB section, then input 1 joule as the power. Press calculate and it will come out with 293.37 FPS as your muzzle velocity with a .25.

This calculator is based on physics with the information YOU input on what YOUR gun shoots. There is no guessing involved. The first part of the post was for if you had absolutely no idea what your gun shoots with any bb.

I don't see how you would be in a sport for the wrong reasons if you want to find this out. If I shoot 380 with a .2, why would I be in this sport for the wrong reasons if I want to know what I would chrono at with a .28 or .3?
I know, I used the calculator.

My gun is consistent at 380. It's not a guessing game for me (win for good compression).

Anyways, I used your calculator and tried to see the muzzle of .25 bb's (Which I know the actual chrono of).

It came to 338 FPS. Which is about 15 FPS off from what I chrono'ed my gun with (It's 353 FPS w/.25).

I also found interesting that with increased weight your effective range drastically goes down. Why would you even include this when you know for a fact this is completely opposite from what happens with hop-up.

I know this is without hop-up, but why even include this information? I just don't understand this point of range when your weight is inversely proportional to the range.

Your equation is a simple physics equation that should be used with throwing a ball straight in the air and finding out how long it takes to reach the top. It ignores air friction, which is the biggest enemy of this whole sport.

Also, This calculator is completely pointless because it doesn't address hop-up. No one will ever shoot without it so why even find half of these variables? It doesn't make sense.

You also don't have Bore Length, Compression Rate, Barrel Bore, etc.

Also another major factor is that when you shoot a BB with 0 hop-up, the BB naturally achieves a downward force because it rolls out the barrel. If I could get 170 feet with 0 Hop-Up with .2 BBs it would be a feat of science.

Just because a Retailer says your gun shoots 400 doesn't mean that. There is too many variables to be addressed with such a simple equation, it just won't work with a Kinematic Equation.

Go get your gun chrono'ed with whatever BB you want. That's the best and accurate way
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
Not sure about your gun's FPS? It's fine, you can either do a poor man's chrono with a coke can or use my equation (not necessarily accurate):
AirsoftGI FPS = X
Airsplat's FPS = P
AirsoftSmith's FPS = S
Evike.com's FPS = N
Your Gun's FPS = B

[(X+P+S+N)/4]-10 = B
Missing a variable? No problem, just subtract 1 from what you are dividing by. Ex. [(P+S+N)/3]-10=B
OK, let's look at this. First off, some retailers can get guns built to their specifications. Some manufacturers release their gun at a 350fps and some at 400+fps. Some distributors may put their own springs or have the mechboxes built to their own specs. So it's entirely possible that guns chronoed by any of those retailers will come in different because they have different specs on their gearbox.

So getting an average on what can essentially be five different guns that are only related by label or because they are similar manufacturer does not give you any kind of accurate results. It really only give you an average velocity without account for my earlier point.

Secondly, not all of those retailers will post accurate or even honest results on what their guns chrono. Some post manufacturers spec which are not always accurate or truthful. Again, basing your average on numbers that are not accurate or may be exaggerated or outright deception leaves alot of room for inaccurate data to contaminate your figure. It happens alot in airsoft. If you don't know this, you do now.

Finally, the accurate way for you to figure out what your gun tis shooting is to chrono your gun when you get it. By researching the gun in question, you will find out about the great variance of velocities the gun typically has out of the box and will have some idea as to what to expect.

An actual chrono on a chronograph will eliminate guess work. Base your assumptions on hard data, not guesswork and estimation. Get chrono from more than one chrono and average them. That will give you ACCURATE DATA to work with.

Additionally, I posted a blog a few months back about Retailers and what their word can be taken with.

Quote:
FPS stands for Feet Per Second, for those of you who hate anything other than SI units, one fps is 0.304 meters/sec (equivalently 1m/s = 3.28 fps). 328fps is 100m/s, and a 0.2g bb traveling at this speed possess the energy of exactly 1 Joule.

Energy (in joules) = 1/2 mass * velocity^2
Most of us here understand this concept. There are several well-written articles in the Beginner's Section to explain this. Those not obviously sticky'ed can be found using the search function.

Quote:
So how does extra FPS affect my range? Right now though the easiest thing that I can do is calculate some range using basic physics, making certain assumptions. For starters we'll ignore hop-up, as we know it increases range, and I'm not going to sit here and work out higher level physics using specific air density and fluid dynamics. This model assumes a curved flight path, I know hop-up produces a straighter path, but you'll be surprised how close the figures from this model match to real-life.

From basic physics, lets start with a basic equation:

s = distance
u = initial velocity
v = final velocity
a = acceleration
t = time passed

s = ut + 1/2 at^2

Assume you are firing the bb from a height of 1meter (i.e. with your rifle shouldered), lets calculate the time it takes for your bb to drop and hit the ground:

s = ut + 1/2 at^2 hence,

1 = 0 + (0.5* 9.81) * t^2
t = sqrt( 1/(0.5*9.81) )
t = sqrt(0.203...)
t = 0.45 seconds (2SF)

Hence time taken to fall 1 meter is 0.45 seconds. With a velocity of 328fps or 100m/s, this mean your bb will travel (328*0.45)=148feet or 45 meters before hitting the ground, giving you your effective range. If you don't know the energy of your rifle, you can either calculate it above, or use 1J and 2.31J as the limit for single action.


BoltRig's FPS Converter
Okay, you have the science of why down, but you've left out the element that effects all of your science. Assuming everything is tuned precisely, you have wind, weather, and the human element to foul up your science. Simple adjustments to your hop can help or hinder your math. Varying the hop nubbing can increase or reduce your range and velocity.

The bottom line is FPS does not guarantee increased range. While it can put more power behind your BB that may result in the BB flying farther, the resistance placed upon it by the nubbing, the airseal of components, and even the efficiency your mag feeding BBs can result in crappy performance that reduces your range. A simple factor of a dirty barrel can turn your $1000+ sniper rifle into a sputtering paperweight.

Like Monkey said, Marui Hops can out range heavily modded custom guns out of the box. They aren't shooting more than 300 fps most of the time. There are other examples in the airsoft world that need to be factored in. More power does not equal better range. You might improve consistency, but more range comes from several factor. I would hope you have more of a handle on that before you begin writing definitive articles, especially when some of your data is severely flawed.

Just saying...
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  #18  
Old 09-27-2010, 08:26 PM
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Close and delete please. I was in the process of making a video chronoing 2 different guns, then using the calculator so see if the results matched up, first gun did match up within 3 fps (5 shots in the chrono using the average). Not going to even bother with the second one after viewing the comments. I agree there were too many variables not included. Range was thrown in as an estimate, I didn't title it "See how far your gun can shoot". If your gun is field legal with .2's using this guide would not hinder your use of a gun at a field...

I tried adding something to the community that might be "cool" that a 15 year old, high school sophomore could make with the knowledge he learned from physics, javascript, and HTML. Instead I've been discouraged to make anything else to add to the community, this, along with my sniper review, and a post about what you thought about me adding another gun to my collection, have all been shot down. I have tried to act mature and make friends in a new Ohio community but it seems the teenage stereotype stays with me wherever I go. I can't post an opinion on something or try to back up a point without being "ignorant, opinionated, and immature".

And to reply to you HayStack, I don't see anything crazy about my "CrazY sniper thread", I was saying what gun I was considering adding into my collection, asked what the community thought about it, they didn't like it, so I didn't get it.
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Last edited by Boltrig; 09-27-2010 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:53 PM
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Veteran Win?
It always happens, can't beat it.
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 203 View Post
Veteran Win?
It always happens, can't beat it.
Always does, just gonna sit back and shut up like I'm supposed to since I'm new to the forums.
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  #21  
Old 09-27-2010, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 203 View Post
Veteran Win?
It always happens, can't beat it.
Not really.

I give you alot of props for designing all of this, but it just happens that an equation like this can't cover something that complex. It sucks but it happens
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:46 PM
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Your math simply doesn't account for the variables. Maybe if airsoft guns were clinical and precise like a phaser beam you could. But there are the variables that affect your results.

Airsoft isn't black and white, its more of shades of gray and then some damn fool throws a pink hello kitty into your pallet and you're left wondering "where tha' f**k did that come from?"

Your airsoft gun has the mechanical aspects that fit together and then there is skill meshes the mechanical into a living, breathing animal. The constant hours of tweaking, the minute shaving of components, the ebb and flow of the parts working together in harmony - the tuning of your gearbox and careful shimming of the gears, the careful application of grease here, the adjustment of the motor, and dry lube there, marrying the nozzle to the hop-up, and the hop up to your barrel - making sure the inner barrel is properly spaced with the outer barrel. And then slapping it all together and listening to the sound your gearbox makes when its happy. That's not science, but art.

You get a feel for how your gun sounds, feels, the little smells and how it reacts to your touch. You see it grinding away and know immediately when something doesn't sound or feel right. It becomes an extension of your body and others see it as a reflection of your very soul...

And it looks purdy up thar' on tha wall...
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  #23  
Old 09-27-2010, 11:58 PM
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Wow Texx, that brought a tear to my eye.
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  #24  
Old 09-28-2010, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltrig View Post
Always does, just gonna sit back and shut up like I'm supposed to since I'm new to the forums.
Your only huge problem is this: Even after a Physics Major totally proved you wrong and an Engineering Major backed him up, you still remain stubborn. You're 15, in a high school level Physics class, that basic stuff won't account for how many variables there really are. I know I'm rehashing most of the stuff that has already been stated but you just need to know your place. Disseminating information like this, that is false and fairly opinionated, will only result in you getting proved wrong and made to look like a total *** when you try to disprove things that can't be disproven. You came on this forum trying to spout off that you know everything that you post about, you don't. You're 15, the world is a lot bigger than what you may think. When I was your age I was the same way, it's a rite of passage. I got flamed a bunch when I started out here, everyone does, and if they don't then they're not learning. Even though some of us Vets may come off as an ***, just take it on the chin and don't whine about it. Because in the long run the information we pass onto you, you will then pass on to another kid who comes onto this board. So like I said, don't whine, just take the information presented to you, retain it and move on. Sit back and read what the more knowledgeable and older/wiser players have. And if you come back with a stupid retort like being too busy with a job or a girlfriend, I swear to God I will find you and I will smack the stupid out of you. If you can't get to a shop to chrono your rifle and you think it's within the limits, fine take the risk. If you come to an event and your rifle is shooting hot and you retort with "Oh hurf durf, my calculations disprove your readings blah blah," enjoy your car ride home to think about your stupidity. If you're not sure, then bring something you are absolutely positive will work. Until then, please, save the high school physics knowledge for high school physics class. I'm not trying to say I am a Physics Master, hell I'm an International Studies (Middle East) Major, I don't know **** about physics, though I did take it last year. Whatever Spectre says, take it to heart he knows his stuff. Sorry for the long winded post, but please, just read it and learn from it.

Peace Bros
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2010, 01:45 PM
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One question about the "pop can test", has anyone proven that the cans are all made of the same material and to the same specs? Too many variables.

At the field we chrono with .20g BB's nothing else. So knowing the fps of .23, .25, and .28's doesn't matter. We also bring 2 brands of chrono's to cross check. The difference between each chrono varies about 3fps, certainly an acceptable variance.

Paintball chronos (radar chronos) fail for one big reason, they measure the velocity of the bb long after it leaves the barrel. This always yields lower FPS (av -30fps) because the BB has already lost velocity due to wind resistance. Dedicated airsoft chronos measures the BB about an inch out of the barrel.
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