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Old 08-19-2007, 02:16 PM
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Arcing shots...

Whats your take on it? I have played in the woods 99% of the time for the past two years so it hasn't been an issue.

Yesterday outside of Toledo we were playing against a team we hadn't before in a far more open area. Basically a tall grass field (maybe 300 yards by 600 yards) with a pair of tiny "hills" (dirt piles made by a backhoe years ago). On the outskirts and within the field were multiple defensive positions (ad hoc cover made from old plywood crates).

So we were playing attack and defend and as the attackers we decided to split up an encircle so as to split the defenders fire coming from the "hill".

Anyway I moved from cover (the day was windy and shots were going wild) to a spot where I could get some better shots.

The defenders see me and start spraying up at an angle and are trying to walk their shots at me. BBs are coming down within ten or twenty feet all around me. They didn't hit me and we won that particular game.

But arcing shots struck me as kinda cheesy. Something a paintballer would do. And as I former paintballer of ten years I had seen it enough.

So whats your take on it? Is it legal? Illegal? Cheesy? Valid?

Last edited by The Mad Bomber; 08-19-2007 at 02:20 PM. Reason: sentence structure
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Old 08-19-2007, 02:21 PM
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Edit: now that I think of it. I change what I said earlier. A little bit of an arc is okay, but if they are shooting at something like a 75 degree angle I wouldn't like that.

Last edited by British; 08-19-2007 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 02:24 PM
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its legit, and sometimes necessary. have to remember we're shooting little plastic bb's, I'm still amazed they go 200ft accurately. some people don't have the the range required to hit you and have to arc them. also someone may be new and not know how to adjust/ use a hop-up or maybe their hop-up took a crap mid game. or they lubed the mag well just before the game and the hop-up if still a little slick.

i know what you're saying though and understand it but you have to realize that with airsoft their are a dozen reasons why someone would arc (or lob) their shots instead of adjusting their hop-up for them to go straight.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:30 PM
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Gravity takes its effect on everything. Real bullets even arc, just not to the extent of airsoft. There is nothing wrong with it.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:23 PM
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sometimes you have to adjust for wind and elevation in order to get a good shot off. i have seen a really good airsoft sniper have to point their gun nearly 30 degrees away from the target to get that shot, and they hit that target. i see nothing wrong with having to arch the BB. but if your talking artillery style arching, that may get a bit cheap, and i would be a little upset if i were hit on the top of the head from an arty BB!
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:24 PM
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I just haven't encountered it before. I suppose it's only natural.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:29 PM
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My opinion is arcing is fine enough. Like many points mentioned above. But only to a certain extent.

If it's to the point that you're using your gun like a mortar, firing in a severe arc in an effort to hit an enemy behind cover, that's not really realistic, and really should not be allowed. We're trying to simulate the fire of rifles, not mortars.
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:18 PM
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But at the point mentioned by spetsnaz, you would severely sacrifice accuracy. I don't feel I will ever see a strong argument against it. To disallow arcing, it would be the same as not allowing football qbs to lob the ball (hail mary is a brilliant example) and an outfielder to not be able to bomb into home. There is a sacrifice with distance and that is consistency and accuracy, making arcing ok.
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoNOTBLink View Post
Gravity takes its effect on everything. Real bullets even arc, just not to the extent of airsoft. There is nothing wrong with it.


Gravity effects everything at the same rate, bullets simply go faster and therefore travel more distance before they hit the ground.


But on the subject of arcing, I do not think that arcing to hit someone behind cover is good. I have seen and heard of someone changing their hop-up so the BB arcs WAY down, and hitting someone behind cover.

But a little arcing to have better range is OK in my book.
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Last edited by Trauma; 08-19-2007 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:16 PM
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I hate arced shots. They simply show the limitations of airsoft ballistics that were never meant to be exposed. One of the best aspects of airsoft tactics is the power of initiative: a huge part of winning the game is a matter of who sees/shoots first. And when you find yourself in a situation where you must arc shots (which probably won't hit the other guy anyway) much of that need for initiative on either side's part is lost. This is an especially disappointing end to a good game: to comb through the woods in a tactically sound way then end it by meeting the enemy in a wide open space where you can wave at the enemy and experience the awkard, boring outer edge of the airsoft universe.

In my opinion, a good airsoft field is even a field where making arced shots are the least possible.
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:20 PM
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Heres my arching story:

I was at sprinfield at OP110, playing an escort game. We were on a path advancing towards the enemy. A guy next to me with an M4 and a Hicap was shooting like crazy at nothing. So I asked him whatsup. He said look.

He had his hop up tuned perfectly, the shots were going straight out and falling down right behind a bush. Those guys arent calling any of their hits! He exclaimed.

Thats downright wrong and completely against the milsim priciples that we base our game on.
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:40 PM
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Unless you're using an m203, I say arching (on purpose) is bull.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:05 PM
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I think we might be talking about two different kinds of arching.

One is where a player angles up his barrel in order to get better range. I think this is OK. Not ideal, but it is not unfair. Both teams can angle barrels.

The other is what Hkrazy said, where a player changes hop-up so the BB drops down right behind some form of cover. This is wrong, as it give one side an unfair advantage.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:07 PM
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For any of you who know anything about real steel sniping, you must compensate for many factors, which all add up to arcing. I say it's fine, but when you are artying your shots it is just unrealistic. If you want to get someone behind cover, flank them.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:11 PM
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I agree. Shooting for better range, yes. Dropping over cover, no.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:15 PM
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It just come's down to calling your hit's. It dose'nt matter what the wind did to it or how much luck pushed it into you if it hit's your out. Just part of the game thats all. I've been taken out by some really chessy shot's, You know the ones where there is no way in hell they could have got me(as i put my red hat on) kind of shot.
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Old 08-20-2007, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK SE7EN View Post
It just come's down to calling your hit's. It dose'nt matter what the wind did to it or how much luck pushed it into you if it hit's your out. Just part of the game thats all. I've been taken out by some really chessy shot's, You know the ones where there is no way in hell they could have got me(as i put my red hat on) kind of shot.
Black, please don't take this the wrong way but,
I think that the issue here isn't not calling hits, but is more along the lines of whether or not you feel that it is sportsmanlike to lob your shots over obstacles that you normally can't see through, better yet that you don't don't have a line of sight/fire through.

This is assuming that people call their hits as they should >
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:31 AM
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I have a thought. In the real world, would a rifleman be able to hit a target behind a dirt mound by shooting over it and hoping the rounds stop above his target, make a 90 degree turn downwards and resume its previous velocity? I think that defies the law of physics. I say if you can see the target, but he's a little farther than your firing distance, its ok to lob, but only a little farther (no 30-75 degree angles). If you can't see 'em, but you know they're out there it's called flanking their position, or wait for him to pop part of his body out and shoot it. (following the rules though)
Do i think its sportmanship to lob your bbs?
For better range: yes (but to an extent)
To hit targets behind cover you can't see: No
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:28 PM
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What i was saying is if it hit's you it counts. It's part of the up's and down's of airsoft. Like when a paintball bounches of without breaking. If you think a rule change will stop it your crazy, that would be almost imposible to prove or inforce.
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACK SE7EN View Post
What i was saying is if it hit's you it counts. It's part of the up's and down's of airsoft. Like when a paintball bounches of without breaking. If you think a rule change will stop it your crazy, that would be almost imposible to prove or inforce.
Not necessarily, for example, many people/game organizers state that ricochets do not count. Enforcing rules in airsoft is primarily up to the player, as most rules are practically impossible to prove.
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:51 PM
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Thats true, but i'm only talking about arcing and not ricochets.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Klaus View Post
I have a thought. In the real world, would a rifleman be able to hit a target behind a dirt mound by shooting over it and hoping the rounds stop above his target, make a 90 degree turn downwards and resume its previous velocity? I think that defies the law of physics. I say if you can see the target, but he's a little farther than your firing distance, its ok to lob, but only a little farther (no 30-75 degree angles). If you can't see 'em, but you know they're out there it's called flanking their position, or wait for him to pop part of his body out and shoot it. (following the rules though)
Do i think its sportmanship to lob your bbs?
For better range: yes (but to an extent)
To hit targets behind cover you can't see: No
In the "real world", they use cartridges which fire 5.56x45mm NATO rounds ~3000 FPS through debris and walls and stuff in the way to hit a target, where it sometimes pitches and yaws through the target causing lots of pain and internal damage.

There are obviously differences between real life, and a recreational activity like airsoft.

Milsim, where you wear a semi-accurate loadout and use semi-accurate tactics to defeat your oponnent is great fun, but airsoft in it's recreational role is not training, and doesn't need to be 100% authentic to the point where you can't try to at least try to lob your shots a bit simply because it doesn't look like something you'd see a super high speed uber delta guy do. I don't see what's wrong with arcing, even if it's extreme. It probably won't work if you try it, you'll make a great target of yourself, and if it does somehow work, then that's hilarious and should be laughed and joked about.

Keep in mind that airsoft is a game, and that the way we use it is recreational, and I at the very least am trying to have fun. If I want to adjust my hop up to get my shots going where I want them to or aim high to lob BBs onto someone, good on me. As long as I'm not cheating or doing something unsafe or defying strict event rules I don't really care what it is, even if it's not entirely "realistic".

And if someone hasn't already, I just know someone is going to whine and moan about how unfair playing and lobbing shots comes from paintball, and how they wish paintball never existed and things like that. Seriously, find another scapegoat for airsoft's problems.

[/rant]
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