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View Poll Results: Would you or your team be interested in attending basic milsim classes? (NOTE: Only n
Yes. I am solo player. I would attend a basic milsim class. 52 32.50%
Yes. I speak for my team. We would attend a basic milsim class. 36 22.50%
No. I would rather take a hands-on approach and learn by practicing with a milsim team. 61 38.13%
I am not interested in milsim. 11 6.88%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 01-28-2008, 06:55 PM
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Milsim Certification vs. Education

ONLY NON-MILSIM PLAYERS/TEAMS SHOULD VOTE.

NOTE: This is a rough draft of the concept.

Milsim Team Certification would be a benchmark for non-milsim and milsim teams alike to attain. The idea is not to disenfranchise teams by enforcing a certification, but to bring teams into the milsim fold and set them on the right path. It would also be a good thing for teams looking for a challenge. The result would be more milsim-oriented teams attending milsim events.

The prospective team would have to pass a series of simple tests which judge their ability to perform in a manner befitting a milsim team (and its participation in milsim events).

Sample test scenario:
  • Team is given a warning order containing specifics about their test, including time, date, location, loadout and parameters of the test.
  • Team arrives at test field and is judged on timeliness and the ability to gear up and be prepared as per the warning order.
  • The test is witnessed by at least two representatives from different milsim certified teams.
  • The team is judged on adherence to safety, loadout and protocol as per the warning order.
  • The team is given an operation order and taken to their starting point.
  • The team leader is given the order via predetermined radio frequency to begin the test as per the operation order.
  • Judging commences on CoC obedience, team cohesion, team form, team discipline and team communication. The team is observed throughout the test.

Enhanced tests:
  • OpFor and props are used for the test to judge the team's ability to stay cohesive and react in a stressful situation. Team must show the ability to use the terrain to advantage.
  • The team is given a frag order via radio and is judged on their ability to adapt to a new situation.

The test criteria would be devised by the community--most likely by the most experienced and serious teams that have SOP's. Using this criteria, any of the certified milsim teams could put together a test. Each test would be unique, but contain all of the test criteria.

Pass or fail would be determined by the degree to which the team meets the test criteria. Teams that fail would have the full support of the milsim community to help them bring their team up to the level required to pass the certification. Passing certification gains you the respect of your peers and sets your team on the path to being more serious about milsim. Some organizers may choose to only accept teams that have passed the certification.

If the idea takes off there could be patches and certificates handed out to a team that passes. Wearing the patches to milsim events would be optional. The cost of the patches would be pooled by certified teams.

That's my idea in a nutshell. Thoughts?

I had another idea for an SOP framework course, but I'm still mulling over that one.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:21 PM
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Wow, that sounds pretty cool dude

+1 Rep point from Reaper :P
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:34 PM
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look's good oscar.... love to try this
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:53 PM
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Sounds like a good idea. Just a thought maybe I didn’t read it right and yes I know its a RD that’s why I'm tossing out ideas but something like this having people set up as a group to oversee this would be great and have everything be set to a standard. That way you don’t get that baby momma drama that can happen. But I like the idea. People want to have Ranger patches ECT on their uniforms because of the honor that goes with it this way you would be able to have a patch that you did earn and not risk offending people in the process. I would be happy to see progression and feed back on your idea.
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Old 01-28-2008, 07:57 PM
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I personally do not like this idea. To me it sounds an awful lot like AirsoftArmy's attempt to register teams with a central entity.

who will be the ones judging? what makes them more qualified to judge than other airsofters? Who will be making the tests?

plus where does that leave people that are not part of a team and dont really wish to join one but still enjoy milsim?
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:03 PM
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Personally, I don't think it would catch on and even if it did it wouldn't change much of anything. It would really only alienate individuals who are not on a team in my opinion. You would also either have teams getting more and more members, or more and more teams popping up.

While I'm not against Milsim teams becoming 'certified', I really think that it isn't necessary. I doubt organizers would limit registration to only certified teams. Not only would this limit the number of players they could possibly have show up, but also how would a team prove they are certified before showing up at the event? A database would need to be compiled, regularly updated and managed with not only the team name but also the names of the members who passed the test. What if the team shows up with someone else who wasn't their when the team passed the test? They're on the team, but haven't proven anything. What about teams from other states that want to come to the event? Maybe individual certification is a better idea. Then someone who wants to attend an event that the rest of his team in incapable of attending, he can show up, and show his certification to a team of certified players and ask to tag along for the ride.

Just some constructive criticism. I understand this is your rough draft though.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:12 PM
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^good points. I too think that if you were going to implement any sort of certification it would have to be on a personal level, not a team as a whole. I think some events struggle in numbers as it is, but to limit that further to certified only players and the number decreases exponentially.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:15 PM
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The central entity would be the milsim community of Ohio. There are enough serious milsim teams here to pool a consensus from. We all tend to agree on what a milsim team is or should be. A milsim team has an SOP and works together in a controlled and organized manner. It wouldn't be hard to come up with basic requirements that mirror what's expected at milsim events now. This isn't about dictatorship, it's about forwarding milsim in a constructive way and teaching teams about the importance of the finer points of milsim. What makes more sense for milsim?--Men working together in an organized manner toward a common goal or a bunch of players trudging aimlessly through the woods without leadership and knowing exactly what they need to be doing? The test would encourage teams that aren't organized to become organized.

As for individual players... Unlike casual airsoft, milsim is almost strictly a team effort. Players that are genuinely interested in the more serious aspects of milsim will find a team on their own anyway. I think it's a moot point. Players that can't be on a team for some reason can still take the test as part of another team.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:17 PM
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The thing is, who is going to appoint themselves as the first two certified teams, and what are the requirements for those initial certifications? My concern is that some people may object to or might not recognize self appointed teams. Depending on what the requirements are, there may or may not be more interest. I guess we'll see.

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Old 01-28-2008, 08:20 PM
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To my knowledge this is not the first time an idea like this has been thrown out there. Although maybe it is the first time it has reached the forums.

As Sidd points out, there are a bunch of questions that will need to be addressed for this to be fully instituted. Don't get me wrong, I am for something along these lines. But where will the lines be drawn as to what is milsim and what makes a milsim team? I know I've posed the milsim definition question before, and you've started a thread with you ideas on the subject, but this question will have to be answered by the community as a whole for something like this to work as a "gateway to milsim".

One base question that I have yet to mention is 'what makes a team'? I've seen plenty of teams with fewer than X players beat bigger teams. I've seen teams without SOPs out preform and act more disciplined that some teams that do. And, of course, I've seen events called milsim when in reality they weren't any more military or tactical than a speedball course.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:27 PM
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My thoughts b4 this gets too too crazy, though i do love me some crazy, any way I think its just something fun to be done and if the Cirts are used it would be for events that are going for a feel of 115% MilSim. example a game where they dont want people to be running around doing whatever, like at some games. Personaly I dont have a problem with that its just that for me I dont want every game I play to be an open one. I love a game where there are commanders and leaders and roles and orders ect. This cirt will just help mark those teams who are really into this idea and want to play like that at some games. So when someone else wants to host a game that are along these lines. But again just my thoughts. and well maybe we could all start collecting names of people who are interested in judging and vote on them to be the first pannel of people to give the tests. well yes there should be checks and balance to this. I say again work on flushing it out more.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonicUnicorn2 View Post
While I'm not against Milsim teams becoming 'certified', I really think that it isn't necessary. I doubt organizers would limit registration to only certified teams. Not only would this limit the number of players they could possibly have show up, but also how would a team prove they are certified before showing up at the event? A database would need to be compiled, regularly updated and managed with not only the team name but also the names of the members who passed the test. What if the team shows up with someone else who wasn't their when the team passed the test? They're on the team, but haven't proven anything. What about teams from other states that want to come to the event? Maybe individual certification is a better idea. Then someone who wants to attend an event that the rest of his team in incapable of attending, he can show up, and show his certification to a team of certified players and ask to tag along for the ride.
Yes, a database would have to be kept for teams.

The odd straggler that joins a certified team would most likely be familiar with their SOP and have practiced with them enough to be able to meet the grade. Teams from other states would be exempt from the certification since it's for Ohio milsim.

The goal here isn't to be uber anal about certification, but get teams in the right frame of mind for milsim events. The proposed test would judge your team's ability to function in a disciplined and organized manner--probably the most basic requirement for milsim.

If you've noticed, there's a common thread coming from the milsim players about what they'd like to see improve. Example: Problem: Dawdlers/Answer: Test the team's ability to be ready and on time. Problem: Stragglers/Answer: Test/observe for team cohesion. Problem: Disobedience/Answer: Test the team's ability to follow orders. Problem: Radio etiquette/Answer: Test the team's ability to keep the net clear, Problem: Don't Know Rules/Answer: Test the team's knowledge of rules...and so on.

The milsim community would have to vote on the initial parties to implement the certification criteria. I don't think the team size matters as much as the way the team handles itself.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
[I]
That's my idea in a nutshell. Thoughts?

Good luck...



I don't think any considerable number of people have ever even agreed on milsim being more than "mission based" airsoft. I don't want to sound like Blade here and say it'll never work, because it may work, and a lot of people may want to participate. I just think it's going to be a huge effort getting simple definitions worked out and agreed-upon.
I've seen 'milsim' teams that don't wear any common uniform, but work well together, I've seen 'milsim' teams that look nearly like clones of each other and were rarely (if ever.) actually working as a unit when the game was on. I've seen teams with "SOP's" bulldozed into the ground by teams without SOP's and I've heard alot of different definitions of what milsim is, and isn't.
Plus let's face it, there's still all the petty political nonsense going on with some teams.

Trust me, I am all for a structured system, and I'm all for standards, but thats going to be a monumental struggle, and finding enough players and teams that can put egos aside long enough to work together will be something I'd be amazed to see happen



So like I said..

Good luck.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:52 PM
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I agree with the above. Though working together as a team doesn’t always work but heck who knows. I like the structured system as well great idea there. And maybe it’s just something simple and fun as to just get a patch and a title and that’s all that. No more no less. Or maybe start comps with teams that are really wanting to do more. Maybe after comps best teams from Ohio can take on best teams from other states for those who are really into it. All in all I think it would be fun. Just the general idea probably needs to be established first if this would be something just a patch and title fun or maybe something more. Depending on what this system or what not will be used for then that sets you up to answer some of the questions like maybe how do you set the bounds for what MilSim is or isn’t. And also let us not forget that fun weekend games and the random player will never be forgotten. All those games will still go on and there will be many of them I am sure. So maybe talking to a mod to set up a pole question and refining exactly the goal of this "project" would be the next best step before too much effort is put forward. If there are enough people for it great then I say do it. As for those who are not for it.... well as of right now I do not see this as any type of restriction factor outside of the games that want that qualification. Its kinda like saying you can only have 600 rounds in mags at any time. If people don’t like that rule then they don’t have to play because there are games that allow you to have as many round in mags as you want. So there will always be options.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
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I agree with the above. Though working together as a team doesnít always work but heck who knows. I like the structured system as well great idea there. And maybe itís just something simple and fun as to just get a patch and a title and thatís all that. No more no less. Or maybe start comps with teams that are really wanting to do more. Maybe after comps best teams from Ohio can take on best teams from other states for those who are really into it. All in all I think it would be fun. Just the general idea probably needs to be established first if this would be something just a patch and title fun or maybe something more. Depending on what this system or what not will be used for then that sets you up to answer some of the questions like maybe how do you set the bounds for what MilSim is or isnít. And also let us not forget that fun weekend games and the random player will never be forgotten. All those games will still go on and there will be many of them I am sure. So maybe talking to a mod to set up a pole question and refining exactly the goal of this "project" would be the next best step before too much effort is put forward. If there are enough people for it great then I say do it. As for those who are not for it.... well as of right now I do not see this as any type of restriction factor outside of the games that want that qualification. Its kinda like saying you can only have 600 rounds in mags at any time. If people donít like that rule then they donít have to play because there are games that allow you to have as many round in mags as you want. So there will always be options.
Well said and I agree. I went into this with the concept that milsim is teams working in an organized manner (much like the military), using military structure, toward common goals. That's the simplest way I can put it. If you think of milsim this way, then you think of the team as the basic component of the milsim formula. Therefore, it makes sense that milsim teams should be able to move and communicate in an organized military-like fashion. If teams are doing this and following a military-like structure at milsim events then they're acting like a milsim team. The test criteria should reflect this line of thinking.

It'll be pretty easy to spot a disorganized team. They'll move in a random fashion, without a real sense of what they should be doing.

It would be an opportunity for more experienced teams to pass down the knowledge in a constructive and fun way.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
As for individual players... Unlike casual airsoft, milsim is almost strictly a team effort. Players that are genuinely interested in the more serious aspects of milsim will find a team on their own anyway. I think it's a moot point. Players that can't be on a team for some reason can still take the test as part of another team.
I have attempted a few times to find a team, but I have yet to be successful. I love to play milsim though. Will I be excluded from all the events?
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:11 PM
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Good luck...



I don't think any considerable number of people have ever even agreed on milsim being more than "mission based" airsoft. I don't want to sound like Blade here and say it'll never work, because it may work, and a lot of people may want to participate. I just think it's going to be a huge effort getting simple definitions worked out and agreed-upon.
I've seen 'milsim' teams that don't wear any common uniform, but work well together, I've seen 'milsim' teams that look nearly like clones of each other and were rarely (if ever.) actually working as a unit when the game was on. I've seen teams with "SOP's" bulldozed into the ground by teams without SOP's and I've heard alot of different definitions of what milsim is, and isn't.
Plus let's face it, there's still all the petty political nonsense going on with some teams.

Trust me, I am all for a structured system, and I'm all for standards, but thats going to be a monumental struggle, and finding enough players and teams that can put egos aside long enough to work together will be something I'd be amazed to see happen



So like I said..

Good luck.
Thanks for the moral support. I agree totally. Too many ideas, too much politics, too many ego's. I'm open to other ideas. Of course, this will never happen if there aren't people interested in making their team more geared toward milsim. If there were teams really interested in it they would be making an effort to move that direction on their own. There is no clear consensus on what people consider milsim to be. One extreme (myself included) wants teams to take milsim competition seriously. Another extreme wants to dabble in milsim without investing time in the details.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:13 PM
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I have attempted a few times to find a team, but I have yet to be successful. I love to play milsim though. Will I be excluded from all the events?
No, but like most milsim events you would be expected to work with an existing team (or you could volunteer as a roleplayer or event staff). If this were implemented I don't think the powers that be would have a problem with one or two people joining an experienced team for a restricted event. The problems milsim events experience tend to be from whole teams, not individual players per se.

If not a certification, maybe make it into a Milsim Orientation course or something... along the lines of helping teams get started on milsim concepts for their team.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:13 PM
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And what about the person who is a casual airsofter but is interested in playing milsim? There would have to be some kind of training period or something where a team or a few more experienced players would have to take a newer player wanting to play milsim under their belt so they can get teach them about team tactics and command structure and .......etc.

You beat me to it Oscar....
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:17 PM
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Before we put the cart before the horse I suggest we work on hosting dedicated milsim events on the local level. Most milsm is offered only at large events that only occur a few times a year. It would help if teams had more opportunity to practice strict milsim as much as open play. I know the Strikers offer this at their open events, but it would be nice to see some of the other established milsim teams offering the same. If open play style of airsoft is the only thing offered monthly, that's what most of the team are going to be. I wouldn't mind the opportunity to bring my team into that environment every chance I get, but we just don't have the chance and neither does anyone else. So before we go defining milsim and certifying milsim teams, let's get out on the field and work it out. Seeing those who are willing to put forth the effort first hand at open milsim ops will give you a good idea of what teams are or will be qualified for bigger milsim events.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:21 PM
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I think so yes trapshooter. and for everyone else the MilSim teams from what I have seen play MilSim style reguardless of the game type for the most part.
With that said if a team is marked as being a milsim team by the system (if set up) just ask if you could work with them at the next normal even. I am sure most teams would be up for that.

Oscar I agree with you saying its not a single person thats the prob but a "team" of single people. some times what happens at games that again I have noticed is that teams go there and all the people with out a team get put into one squad and there is no set SOP or leadership going on there and they dont care and go do their own thing. Thats fine but not always the best for a more military milsim.

so quick recap
to make sure that single people arnt left behind maybe teams who are marked at milsim or what not also add themselfs if they do or do not accept random people to join up for a game and if they do or do not mind teaching.
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:28 PM
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Evil Head:

We're doing this at Conquest every weekend. Milsim-style mini-ops. While the goal is team training for us (Blackeagle), it is also a way for other teams to learn and have joint training.

MinioN:

Agreed. Milsim teams should be taking the initiative to absorb those extra players and teach them some things along the way. We do it most every time we attend an event. Sometimes a team of independents can't be helped. The result is unpredictable, but when we're the leadership we try to place them where they'll be best served.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:01 PM
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Evil Head is right but then again maybe having a system in place might prompt more games like that. Or maybe more games like this will prompt the need and creation of the system...............Details tonight at eleven
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:23 AM
MK1 Sniper MK1 Sniper is offline
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Creating certications for milsim teams wouldn't necessarily guarantee that the quality of play would elevate. Additionally, people come and go and a team certified in 2008 might be less than qualified two years later.

What would be really beneficial in my mind would be for some of the better milsim teams to sponsor education/training events. Subject materials could be posted on this site with a requirement for participants to study the materials beforehand.

Education and training events could then center around the practical application of the subject materials including tactical demonstrations, walking people through situations, and live fire training in direct engagement of the milsim instructors.

I'm sure that enthusiastic players who are unfamiliar with milsim techniques (such as myself I might add) would enjoy learning more and becomming better players. This would, in turn, raise the level of play for the milsim teams as well

It might be a more practical way of getting the same result as certifying teams
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:35 AM
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I agree with you MK1. Im not really new to airsoft but I am new to the milsim aspect and event aspect of it now. I know I would be very enthusiastic about a training event or something like it and I think people who really want to learn and progress in milsim airsoft could really really benefit by having something like this.
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