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Old 07-13-2011, 10:28 PM
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Question 10.8v NiMh Battery Question

Hey guys, got a question for ya. I just bought a PEQ box for my Echo1 M4, and a friend of mine brought up the idea that the 10.8v NiMh battery inside the box might damage my gun internally because it's beefs up my ROF significantly. Is this possible? Or is there something I can do to prevent any damage? (I.E. more maintenance and/or internal upgrades)

Thanks

My Gun: Echo1 Stag-15 M4
Standard Internals, plus a madbull 6.03 inner barrel
standard motor
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:09 PM
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Nope, should be fine. Just keep your gun lubed up, so no friction will occur.

Putting a 11.1v 30c lipo will ruin your gun though.
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:18 AM
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Well that's a relief, and now I know not to get any LiPo's! But what does your gun have to have in order to be compatible with LiPo batts?
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:43 AM
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well, your gears, piston, piston head, and spring guide must be reinforced, and is able to handle that type of loads. also a plastic gearbox shell won't help.
Your motor also needs to be able to withstand that much current, and keep up with everything.

a properly shimmed gearbox is good to have too.

some non-upgraded guns can use a 7.4v 15c lipo no problem. but a plastic gearbox won't last. xD

that's why i bought a KWA; It's build to withstand lipos.

And the same rules for lipo's applies for LiFePO4's. they are like lipo's, but much much safer to use.

i hope this helps you!

if you have any more questions/ordering of batteries questions just feel free to PM me.

i should type up a thread on batteries.
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:57 AM
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The amount of damage incurred on your rifle will be relative in comparison to play styles other than your own. If you are heavy on the trigger and favor the full-auto mode, a higher ROF will result in more shots fired, and more stress over a shorter period of time on the same location over and over again. Hence, a greater chance of something failing sooner than if you fire at reasonable intervals in semi-auto. Other potential risks are trigger contacts burning from arcing as a result from the higher voltage rating. (This is the same reason why the 7.4V lipos have a low arcing affinity but still maintain snappy trigger response.)

As mentioned, the quality of craftsmanship on the gearbox, the quality of the components and the maintenance paid to it will also affect results. Since you are running a stock gun with stock internals, stock shim job and stock wiring, it is safe to assume that the 10.8 will put more wear on your gun.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
The amount of damage incurred on your rifle will be relative in comparison to play styles other than your own. If you are heavy on the trigger and favor the full-auto mode, a higher ROF will result in more shots fired, and more stress over a shorter period of time on the same location over and over again. Hence, a greater chance of something failing sooner than if you fire at reasonable intervals in semi-auto. Other potential risks are trigger contacts burning from arcing as a result from the higher voltage rating. (This is the same reason why the 7.4V lipos have a low arcing affinity but still maintain snappy trigger response.)

As mentioned, the quality of craftsmanship on the gearbox, the quality of the components and the maintenance paid to it will also affect results. Since you are running a stock gun with stock internals, stock shim job and stock wiring, it is safe to assume that the 10.8 will put more wear on your gun.
but not too much.
I assume by the time the battery causes any damage, he will already have it upgraded or replaced.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEDEISEL View Post
but not too much.
I assume by the time the battery causes any damage, he will already have it upgraded or replaced.
You can't make these assumptions. The cut and dry answer is that it will have an affect on a stock E1 gun. However like everything in Airsoft, there are NO certainties. That's really the point I try to make in my post.
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
You can't make these assumptions. The cut and dry answer is that it will have an affect on a stock E1 gun. However like everything in Airsoft, there are NO certainties. That's really the point I try to make in my post.
true. (filler)
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:21 AM
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It's difficult to determine how parts in any particular gun will fail without establishing a baseline first. Each manufacturer is different and each gun is also different, and may have some unique qualities that may hinder or accelerate wear.

Most, but not all, AEG manufacturers recommend using an 8.4V battery. Others, like KWA, use a 9.6V as a baseline. It just depends on who makes the guns, so don't take this as me recommended an 8.4V for all situations. As should be obvious, using your gun as recommended by the manufacturer will likely lead to the most life out of your AEG. Anything beyond that, and you're throwing caution into the wind.

The vast majority of Echo 1 guns do use an 8.4V battery as their baseline, though I've seen more people than I can count using 9.6V batteries with their E1's without issues. With a 10.8V though, you'll definitely be putting more stress onto your gearbox, gears and piston. The base voltage is a 22% increase, so you could surmise that your gun will break down 22% faster. As has been said, this isn't a solid estimate as there are many factors involved. I've seen brand new guns run as directed as well as guns fully upgraded with FTK's implode in 10 minutes just because someone used poor quality BB's. There are just so many things that can go wrong with guns.

Honestly though, your gun will likely perform fine for a good period of time. I've run several of my guns with a 10.8, including one of my old CA M4A1 RIS's, and only blew out one piston a year with a LOT LOT of use! I also ran a 12V in a stock Marui G36C for about a year before the gears finally exploded.

My recommendation on use would be firing mainly semi-auto or light full auto bursts. If you're finding any feeding issues when firing full auto, you may wany to back the voltage down again. I don't expect you will, but it's just something to be aware of. Also, don't use cheap BB's. Be sure you're using high grade BB's at all times and also be sure to clear your barrel with pure silicon to reduct the chances of a BB jam in your barrel.

Also, just to clear up a little bit of what THEDEISEL said, while lubing your gun is good, most E1 factory lube jobs are going to be fine as long as you haven't opened your gun yet. Never spray additional lube down the barrel or up into the hopup unit. Friction occurs regardless of how much lube is applied, but adding a sufficient amount to reduce mechanical friction is all that is needed. Once a gun is broken in, very little lube is needed.

Also, his stock shimming should be just fine as long as he hasn't opened the gearbox and lost or misplaced existing shims. Factory shimming is usually fine for most guns, and unless you start swapping out upgraded gearsets with different tolerances, you should be fine.

So just be careful running the 10.8 off the start. You should be okay for quite a while as long as you're going good on maintaining and cleaning your gun and using the best BB's possible. See how the gun is performing and if it makes you nervous, back it down to a 9.6V.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
well, your gears, piston, piston head, and spring guide must be reinforced, and is able to handle that type of loads. also a plastic gearbox shell won't help.
Your motor also needs to be able to withstand that much current, and keep up with everything.

a properly shimmed gearbox is good to have too.

some non-upgraded guns can use a 7.4v 15c lipo no problem. but a plastic gearbox won't last. xD

that's why i bought a KWA; It's build to withstand lipos.
Quote:
As mentioned, the quality of craftsmanship on the gearbox, the quality of the components and the maintenance paid to it will also affect results. Since you are running a stock gun with stock internals, stock shim job and stock wiring, it is safe to assume that the 10.8 will put more wear on your gun.
So if I'm reading this right, I either have the option of upgrading the internals of my Echo1 (first gun) or just buy a KWA or some other higher quality brand that has better internals.

So what if I get a KWA or other higher quality lower receiver, instead of either upgrading internals or getting a new gun? I have a quad rail for it, (Which doesn't fit but I'm working on it, possibly more questions in the future ) a good scope, and a decent grip so if by just getting a new lower receiver would help, can I just do that?

Thanks for all you help so far
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:38 AM
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Well now after reading darkstar's comment, i'll probably hold off on doing anything in the meantime, but I might as well get as much info while I can
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:40 AM
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Nexus,

I think they are just recommending possibly upgrades, but let them speak for themselves. I've run 10.8's on E1's without any short term problems, but if you're planning to run a 10.8 long term, you should probably look into the possibility of replacing the piston body at minimum. As long as you're not going super-crazy with your spring and are keeping it under 400 and preferrably around 350fps, a good piston will likely be about all you'd need.

I would personally not recommend buying a KWA for the sole purpose of running a 10.8. KWA makes excellent rifles, but unless you have the money burning a hold in your pocket, I wouldn't buy into the KWA just yet.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEDEISEL View Post
well, your gears, piston, piston head, and spring guide must be reinforced, and is able to handle that type of loads. also a plastic gearbox shell won't help.
Your motor also needs to be able to withstand that much current, and keep up with everything.

a properly shimmed gearbox is good to have too.

some non-upgraded guns can use a 7.4v 15c lipo no problem. but a plastic gearbox won't last. xD

that's why i bought a KWA; It's build to withstand lipos.

And the same rules for lipo's applies for LiFePO4's. they are like lipo's, but much much safer to use.

i hope this helps you!

if you have any more questions/ordering of batteries questions just feel free to PM me.

i should type up a thread on batteries.
First off, voltage is voltage, and amps is amps. It doesn't matter what composition battery it comes out of. A Li-po doesn't automatically mean "a lot of wear on your gear box." All the that matters is the total power output of the battery (or watts). Without getting over technical, a 10.8v Ni-Mh and 11.1v Li-po will give very similar results assuming the drain rate is the same.

On to the poster, since you're shoving a 10.8v in a PEQ box, it is pretty safe to assume that it is a mini style battery, and therefore will have a low discharge rate. You should be fine running that battery in that gun, most of our stock guns run 11.1v Li-po's with a low drain rate without any problems. The only thing we do is re-grease and shim (do it anyways), and add a MOSFET to protect the contacts. Something you might wanna look into.
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:03 AM
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Thanks Darkstar, just to clear this up, the sole reason for buying the PEQ box with the 10.8 batt was because it was a PEQ box, I wanted a quad rail for my gun and needed a place to put the battery. I have a battery bag but since it's wired to the front, the bag would just cover up rails and look pretty stupid.

So i looked for PEQ boxes and found this one with a 10.8 pre-installed. I'm not sure if it's technically a "mini-style" battery though.

As I understand it, as long as I keep cleaning my gun, keep using high-grade BB's and not going rambo on the full-auto, it seems I should be fine. Correct?
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusB23 View Post
So if I'm reading this right, I either have the option of upgrading the internals of my Echo1 (first gun) or just buy a KWA or some other higher quality brand that has better internals.

So what if I get a KWA or other higher quality lower receiver, instead of either upgrading internals or getting a new gun? I have a quad rail for it, (Which doesn't fit but I'm working on it, possibly more questions in the future ) a good scope, and a decent grip so if by just getting a new lower receiver would help, can I just do that?

Thanks for all you help so far
AR type lower receivers and upper receivers rarely mesh well if at all since each manufacturer has a different spec. Classic Army alone has gone through at least three different rear pin types on their uppers in the last eight years. Running the gun stock, but be prepared for something to fail. In contrast to "years of use," I've seen players at games break their guns the very first time they played with them regardless of the type of battery they use.
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusB23 View Post
As I understand it, as long as I keep cleaning my gun, keep using high-grade BB's and not going rambo on the full-auto, it seems I should be fine. Correct?
Well, I didn't say that that's a guaranteed way to keep your gun from breaking down, but rather suggestions on things to do to reduce the chances of a failure. Cleaning your barrel after every game and only using high grade BB's is something all serious airsofters should do. I can't tell you how many times someone has brought a gun into my shop with gearbox problems, and when I look down the barrel, it looks like the inside of a sewer pipe.

As Spectre experienced, I too have seen people come to games using all the right ammo and batteries and still have their guns go down for various reasons. That's not usual, but it does happen.
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