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Old 09-23-2009, 10:18 PM
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CTW vs PTW Picture Comparisons (IMAGE INTENSIVE! 56k Warning)

Hello everyone,

As promised, I finally got around to posting up these pictures courtesy of "Slipknot". These pictures are between a CTW that I just recently got in stock and a PTW courtesy of "Slipknot". These CTWs are the ones without the new ECU or the Stainless barrel. However, I have spoken with Celcius and they will be shipping me the new ECUs and new barrels to install in all the CTWs I have in stock to bring them up to speed. Anyways... on with the photos! (Pardon the horrible lighting in some pictures, we didn't have the best camera or setup available.)

First off here is a picture of the overall celcius and the PTW we will be comparing it to:
Overall Celcius


CTW Receiver Left:


CTW Receiver Right:


(CTW-Top, PTW-Bottom)



Now for the upper receivers:
(PTW-Top, CTW-Bottom)


PTW Upper with CTW cylinder (Corrected photo description):


CTW Upper with PTW cylinder (Corrected photo description):


PTW Upper with CTW cylinder From Rear (Corrected photo description):


CTW Upper with PTW cylinder From Rear (Corrected photo description):


CTW and PTW Cylinders (PTW-Blue, CTW-Silver):


(PTW-Blue, CTW-Silver)


CTW Cylinder taken down:


CTW Piston:


PTW Cylinder taken down:


PTW Piston:


PTW and CTW Piston (Notice a slightly larger piston rack width on the ctw)
(CTW-blue, PTW-red):


Lower Receiver of the PTW:


Lower Receiver of the CTW:


Lower Receiver of CTW and PTW (CTW-top, PTW-bottom):


CTW and PTW lowers from the front (PTW-left, CTW-right):


CTW and PTW Gearboxes from top (PTW-left, CTW-right):


CTW and PTW Magwells from top (PTW-left, CTW-right):


Close up of CTW magwell and Logo:


Close up of PTW magwell and Logo:


Lower of PTW:


Now for trying PTW parts in the CTW and vice versa:
First we started with this picture. (CTW-top and PTW-bottom Receivers open - Before Switch)


Now we have switched the Uppers:
(Receivers open)


(Receivers closed)


We forgot to take pictures of the cylinders in each of the weapons once they were swapped (We will get these once we do the gearbox pictures).

The CTW does accept the PTW cylinder, however the CTW cylinder and the PTW cylinder goes in pretty tight into the CTW upper. I believe that the CTW upper is a little smaller in diameter than the PTW which causes this tightness. However, each cylinder fit into each upper without too much hassle. At most a little more pressure needed to be applied to insert the cylinders into the CTW.

The barrels/hopup units also swapped into each of the weapons.

With that said, I have covered all the pictures that I have at this time. We will be doing more pictures on the internals of the gearboxes and compare the two once I receive the new ECUs to install into the CTWs. I will also do a comparison on the new barrels.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. We will also do test shooting with the CTW once we receive the new barrels and ECUs to compare them to the PTWs.

Till then... the testing continues. 8)

Edit: Just was informed by Slipknot that the cylinder photos of the PTW and CTW are actually photos of them with swapped cylinders. So I stand corrected! Photos fixed.

Last edited by Angus; 09-24-2009 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:29 PM
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What kind of battery does it use out of the box? A regular PTW crane stock battery?
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karma View Post
What kind of battery does it use out of the box? A regular PTW crane stock battery?
I would actually recommend the Celcius 11.1v 1200mah 20C Lipo for it or another lipo equivalent or better. The CTW sadly does not run very well on a 9.6 as far as ROF goes. (The one I tested was a NIMH 9.6v Large Type 4500mah 35Amp Click Here to see battery). It seems that the CTW drains much more power from the battery than the PTW does. However, this is based on the old ECU, so that may be up for change once I get the new ECUs installed. I will report first thing when I do. 8) I am hoping that a high power 9.6 can be used better than it can now. As far as the PTW crane stock battery, I am assuming that it wouldn't be any better than the 9.6v that I used, however I have never personally used one.

Edited: Put in the battery types and specs.

Last edited by Angus; 09-24-2009 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
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I'd like to see some etching tests.

My bet is that if you check dimensions the PTW will have a slight superiority in tolerances that won't matter much. But I expect the CTW uses lower grade materials. Lower grade in homogeny, Rockwell hardness, tensile strength and ductile properties.

Just a guess. any chance of doing some hardness tests on the parts that need it? Gear faces, etc. Hell even the body if you're about it. Simple etch test could shed some light on quality.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillslam View Post
I'd like to see some etching tests.

My bet is that if you check dimensions the PTW will have a slight superiority in tolerances that won't matter much. But I expect the CTW uses lower grade materials. Lower grade in homogeny, Rockwell hardness, tensile strength and ductile properties.

Just a guess. any chance of doing some hardness tests on the parts that need it? Gear faces, etc. Hell even the body if you're about it. Simple etch test could shed some light on quality.
The PTW definitely does have tighter quality control. That is one of the main things PTW users will notice. The materials on some of the parts are noticeably lesser quality than that of the PTW.

I may try to do an etch test in the future if possible. (I would have to look up how to do that properly though because I have never done it before. If you can shed some light on it for me, I would be glad to try it when I can).

On another note.... sadly Slipknot's PTW suffered a very bad causality by falling less than 3 feet off of the chair while he was putting his ptw in the gun case, after taking these pictures.

Here is the result:

I am not sure why these bodies are not made out of better material so that they can with stand a little more abuse. 8( Nothing a new better quality lower can't fix though.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:42 PM
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I'm also interested on the changes they made to the circuity. (Pretty noticeable external difference.)

And, it's clear that they took shortcuts in places - not that I blame them. But in example; the gear box being left unfinished.

However, external / minor stuff like that I could careless about. The internal quality and differences are what I am looking for info on. (I.e. Hop up / Motor / Gears / Electronics)
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:32 AM
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I believe you mis-labeled the pictures of the views of inside the uppers (sights and the scratch on the PTW's delta ring are giveaways). It appears you swapped the respective cylinders in these pics as well?
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:28 AM
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I've got a comment on the battery. Most people assume a Lipo because of it's higher voltage will give you enough power. Well these people are completely wrong. Voltage only goes so far. When you speak of the 9.6v not working well on the CTW and then you recommend a "11.1v 20C" lipo, you're not making any sense nor telling us anything we need to know about voltage or amperage requirements.

When you say 20C what mah rating lipo are you speaking of? For those who don't know this is important becuase Lipo amperage is determined, just like any other battery, by the C rating (times) the mah rating of the pack.

Here are examples...
*11.1v 30C 3300mah pack provides 99amps (HUGE)
*11.1v 20C 1200mah pack provides 24amp (Pitiful - barely more than the average 9.6v Nicd pack)
*11.1v 20C 2000mah pack provides 40amps (Just enough to power a PTW since the motor draws 20-35amps on average to power a 400fps cylinder)

I can use a 12v 1500mah 40amp NiMH or my 11.1v 3300mah 99amp lipo and have the same exact ROF (16-17RPS). However is I use any 12v battery or 11.1v battery with less than a 35amp C rating then the ROF drops immedaitely.

So to be clear with your review and assertions on battery power, can you please be more specific with the Lipo you're speaking, and also please note the cell type(or rating) you used in the NiCD pack?

Thanks!

Last edited by Scorpion; 09-24-2009 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Man View Post
I believe you mis-labeled the pictures of the views of inside the uppers (sights and the scratch on the PTW's delta ring are giveaways). It appears you swapped the respective cylinders in these pics as well?
This is correct. Thank you for the correction. 8) Just before I saw this I checked my PM from Slipknot on WPA saying the same thing. I corrected the pictures and added an edited note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I've got a comment on the battery. Most people assume a Lipo because of it's higher voltage will give you enough power. Well these people are completely wrong. Voltage only goes so far. When you speak of the 9.6v not working well on the CTW and then you recommend a "11.1v 20C" lipo, you're not making any sense nor telling us anything we need to know about voltage or amperage requirements.
Sure thing. 8) Sorry for not clarifying in my original post. I will also add more description to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
When you say 20C what mah rating lipo are you speaking of? For those who don't know this is important becuase Lipo amperage is determined, just like any other battery, by the C rating (times) the mah rating of the pack.

Here are examples...
*11.1v 30C 3300mah pack provides 99amps (HUGE)
*11.1v 20C 1200mah pack provides 24amp (Pitiful - barely more than the average 9.6v Nicd pack)
*11.1v 20C 2000mah pack provides 40amps (Just enough to power a PTW since the motor draws 20-35amps on average to power a 400fps cylinder)

I can use a 12v 1500mah 40amp NiMH or my 11.1v 3300mah 99amp lipo and have the same exact ROF (16-17RPS). However is I use any 12v battery or 11.1v battery with less than a 35amp C rating then the ROF drops immedaitely.

So to be clear with your review and assertions on battery power, can you please be more specific with the Lipo you're speaking, and also please note the cell type(or rating) you used in the NiCD pack?

Thanks!
Ceclius only makes two types of Lipos. The one is a 1600mah 11.1v 12C lipo (Originally thought to have been 15C and not 12C. Corrected on 9/25/09). I am not sure of what lipo cells they are using to make it, but I do know that when using this lipo, the cells actually started to get warm from just a little use with the CTW. At the time those were the only lipos that I had on hand.

The other lipos they make that are made specifically for the CTW are 1200mah 11.1v 20C stock tube lipos. These ones seemed to work a bit better and did not heat up like the other one. Obviously, the 12C was not enough to power the CTW correctly, and was more than likely overdrawing the battery, hence the warmth. Once I get the ECUs installed I will see which battery works best that I have here and compare it to the PTW.

The 9.6v that I used was a NIMH 9.6v 4500mah 35amp Discharge battery from only battery packs, pictured here:
http://www.onlybatterypacks.com/show...temID=11698.26

When using this 9.6v on the CTW it was sluggish compared to the PTW with the same battery.

Celcius recommends using the 11.1v 1200mah 20c lipo that they sell from what I understand. As I stated above, I will test out different batteries to see which is the best route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox View Post
I'm also interested on the changes they made to the circuity. (Pretty noticeable external difference.)

And, it's clear that they took shortcuts in places - not that I blame them. But in example; the gear box being left unfinished.

However, external / minor stuff like that I could careless about. The internal quality and differences are what I am looking for info on. (I.e. Hop up / Motor / Gears / Electronics)
I will get pictures of that for you when I do the ECU swap. 8)

Edit: 1600mah lipo was 12C instead of the 15C I originally posted. Was just double checking to make sure and realized this.

Last edited by Angus; 09-25-2009 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:24 PM
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Anyone know why they use LiPos as a starter battery?
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:37 PM
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Thanks for the information on the batteries! That clears up everything I was assuming.

Lipo as a starter? It's from their marketing team and the fact that low amperage lipo cells like Angus is listing are the lowest level performers and are often VERY cheap to produce. In the world of Lipo batteries you get EXACTLY what you pay for. Be mindful of the crap Celcius is recommending. It's clearly sub-par.

As for that 9.6v battery, I'm not surprised to see the drop in perforamnce on the CTW. Poor current managment from the ECU, MOSFET not rated to deal with higher amperage draw applications, and low grade wiring could all be culprits. But unless someone does load testing on the components then it's all speculation.

Let's just wait for the 2nd gen ECU and wiring to arrive. Perhaps it's better.

Last edited by Scorpion; 09-24-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:40 PM
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Thanks for the info angus.

I am not an electronics engineer by any stretch of the imagination. (Just a Lubricant Engineer.) However, the fact the CTW and PTW perform differently on the same battery - specifically the CTW being "Sluggish" Is worrisome at best. To me, that's saying the gun requires high amperage to run - possibly leading to problems down the road.

However, if someone more up-to-date on electrical things wants to chime in and correct me (or at least give out some technical reasons / faults / whatever) please do. I'm very curious.

Edit:

Post sniped by Scorpion. Questions answered.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:49 PM
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LoL - Thanks Fox. Glad I could help When the new ECU gets installed in the CTW I want to see Angus do testing with a multi meter and see how much resistence is in the wiring and motor connections. It would help explain a LOT about the quality of assembly on the CTW.

Of course assuming it's a pre-built model and not one put together to perfection by someone with the highest quality parts on their own. (Like I did to my MAX kit)
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As for that 9.6v battery, I'm not surprised to see the drop in perforamnce on the CTW. Poor current managment from the ECU, MOSFET not rated to deal with higher amperage draw applications, and low grade wiring could all be culprits. But unless someone does load testing on the components then it's all speculation.

Let's just wait for the 2nd gen ECU and wiring to arrive. Perhaps it's better.
That is my concern as well. Supposedly the 2nd gen ECU is leaps and bounds better, but I want to see it for myself. On the note of the Lipos, I am fairly new to the world of Lipos, but intend to get some high quality ones in stock. (PM inbound scorpion. I figured I would ask you some questions since you seem fairly knowledgeable on them. )

The CTW lipos are very low cost indeed. I would imagine a better quality lipo would do wonders for the CTW, but if they fix the issues with the ECU and what not, hopefully that takes care of the problem. Time will tell. 8)

Sounds very interesting about having your mosfet and what not re-engineered, you will definitely have to post up your finds when you carry that out.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:51 PM
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Scorp, while I completely agree with you on the performance of the battery's ability to supply the circuit with enough amps to correctly power it; you also need to supply the motor with it's rated voltage. Also remember that motors are not linear (for those that don't know)

Angus, since you said the 9.6 was sluggish yet provided more amps then the lipo did, I'm curious what the voltage rating is of the motor. It sounds to me like the ctw motor isn't very efficient if it requires that high of voltage requirements to spin a gearbox similar to a ptw that runs fine on a 9.6v
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:42 PM
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Exactly what I was waiting to comment on Mav. Once we see the new ECU and wiring installed then we can narrow our search to motor requirements and battery output.

Also no one has taken into account if the batteries were fully peak charged! Keep in mind NiMH's only hold their full peak amperage for the first 200-500mah. After that they steadily drop from 80% power down to nothing. Lipos however hold their amperage output until 10% pack mah remaining! That's why Lipos are so awesome for airsoft, no motor slow down until the pack is really 90% done! But that advantage doesn't come without it's costs.

I stand by my earlier observation, let's wait. ECU and wiring will tell more of a story. Then we can break out the multimeter and start pointing fingers(or testing tips).
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:29 PM
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To clear up some vernacular - to me quality control and materials choices are two separate things.

Quality control is around testing your tolerances and materials such that they are being manufactured (as an end product) to the protocols you've specified.

If you choose a cheaper material, that may be, and almost always is, a conscious business decision, and so your QC will take that into account. QC to me means delivering consistent level of quality, not creating higher quality out of magic. You can't make a steel watch into a titanium watch no matter how tight your tolerances or how rigorous your QC is. You can make a very fine steel watch though, each performing consistently up to its peers in the manufacturing batch.

Just wanted to make sure we're not mixing apples to oranges as we talk about this stuff.
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus View Post
The one is a 1600mah 11.1v 15C lipo......
The other lipos they make that are made specifically for the CTW are 1200mah 11.1v 20C stock tube lipos.
(1600mah) 1.6Amp X 15C = 24Amp discharge rate
(1200mah) 1.2Amp X 20C = 24Amp discharge rate

Both batteries should have the same peak discharge rate. 24 Amps should be more than enough to power the PTW. Who knows on the CTW. It's eletronics could be much different and/or far inferior to Systema's, so there is really no way to know for suer. Systema's electronics are designed to provide a peak of 30Amps to the motor. I don't think it's variable. Voltage and Amps are both controlled by the Systema MOSFET in the PTW buffer tube. Lowering the voltage will effect performance though. Trigger response may be slower, but aside from that, the ROF should be about the same on same-voltage batteries that are fully charged, maybe just slightly less. Systema's PTW batteries have a peak discharge rate of 30 amps, but using a 9.6V over a 12V is going to slow down both ROF and trigger response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillslam View Post
To clear up some vernacular - to me quality control and materials choices are two separate things.

Quality control is around testing your tolerances and materials such that they are being manufactured (as an end product) to the protocols you've specified.

If you choose a cheaper material, that may be, and almost always is, a conscious business decision, and so your QC will take that into account. QC to me means delivering consistent level of quality, not creating higher quality out of magic. You can't make a steel watch into a titanium watch no matter how tight your tolerances or how rigorous your QC is. You can make a very fine steel watch though, each performing consistently up to its peers in the manufacturing batch.

Just wanted to make sure we're not mixing apples to oranges as we talk about this stuff.
I couldn't agree more. The Systema PTW is made for LE and MIL training, and is made to those standards. The CTW is made to be a copy of the PTW for the commercial/hobbyist market. While it's kind of fun to compare the PTW and CTW, just by looking at the pictures, you can definitely tell that the CTW is made to a much lower standard. Each product was made for a specific market. Is that a bad thing? Some people think yes, others no. It's all a matter of opinion.

Funny thing is, maybe in another three or four years, we'll all be discussing the differences between the PTW, CTW and all-plastic WELL version of these guns. LOL!!

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Last edited by Darkstar; 09-24-2009 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-24-2009, 05:58 PM
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I am curious how they each perform using the same cylinder. The cylinder was, at my first glance, a point of concern in terms of materials. Even the threading looks slightly suspect, but it could just be lighting, grease, etc. It may help clear up questions regarding the electronics. I think Hillslam's observations are dead on.
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:40 PM
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:50 PM
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Ok I own the CTW as well and When you guys figure out what the issue is with the batteries i wanna know. ive taken the CTW to op irene and many scrims, all and all I love the performance. the paint job is not the best, if you try hard enough it will chip. Another issue is that from time to time the gun chops a bb in half... but honestly that could be just because the mags for ptw and ctw blow ***. Anyhow the biggest concern is the power consumption..The CTW chomps through batteries. so let me know what the deal is. I also have the new chip on the way, and im hoping that that will solve the problems.
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:15 PM
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Yea my PTW has chopped bb's in half. Didn't think it was the mags but never really thought about it.
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:19 PM
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The BB chomping is the mags. I have a few mags that do that, more so when they are near empty. I am think the springs are worn out and don't push the BBs up into the cylinder fast/far enough.. but that is just my guess.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:37 PM
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Yep, the BB chopping issue has been around since day 1. It's definitely fixable provided you're mechanically inclined and have some patience.

First, you'll need to remove the two roll pins toward the top of the magazine. They're the two on the sides. Once you do this, you'll be able to pop the plastic part of the mag out.

Next you'll take of the clip on the front of the magazine. Easy Beazy! Then carefully remove the two small springs on either side of the feed lip, and then remove the to plastic pieces that retain the BB's inside the magazine.

Now comes the hard/sucky/I just permanently messed up my PTW magazine part.

Depending on how old your PTW magazines are, you may be in luck. Older PTW magazines are usually not glued together. The new ones are. Remove all of the screws on the PTW magazine and see if the two halves of the magazine pull apart. If so, just be careful with the spring as it's probably going to want to leap out of the magazine. Also be aware that there are two springs with a little follower in the middle of them, and also a follower that would make contact with the BB's.

If your magazine is glued together, it's going to be more difficult. You'll need to use an Exacto knife, or box cutter, or some other kind of razor blade or similarly thin tool to push around the seams of the magazines in order to break the glue seal and pry open the magazine. Just be aware that you CAN potentially break the magazine and ruin it completely, so don't come after me if you screw up your mag, because I'll tell you now, you should only try this if you're experienced with doing your own upgrades and work.

Anyway. If, by this point, you've gotten the magazine open and have gotten the spring out, here is what you want to do. Take the bottom portion of the second spring. Meaning, the spring that goes all the way inside the magazine to the stop, and not the spring that comes in contact with, or is close to, the BB's. Remember, there are two springs (unless Systema has changed something, at which point I'm totally wrong). Anyway, take the second spring, and stretch out the bottom half of the spring so that the spring is about 2 to 3 inches longer than it was when you first pulled it out.

Once you've done that, just reassemble the magazine and test it out. Hopefully you've solved the BB chopping issues and the mag will be as good as new. If not, well, there's the circular file if you want to use it. Or give it to someone who knows what they're doing. Either way, good luck if you attempt to fix your magazines yourself. I've done this to several of my magazines and I've never chopped a BB since, and that's been 3+ years now, so I know it works. It's just a pain because now Systema glues the two plastic halves of the magazine together.

Good Luck,

Darkstar out.
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:19 AM
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so still no word on the power issue?? oh angus is the systema gear box interchangeable with the ctw? and what about the actual motor? I was thinkin if the chip fixes the isse im not doin anything to my ctw but if it turns out to be the motor that is pulling all the power i may as well drop a systema motor in. not cheap so Im really counting on you to help me figure this whole thing out. Im really hoping the chip fixes it tho... by the way have you gotten the chips yet?? we havent.
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