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  #1  
Old 05-18-2009, 12:20 PM
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JG and Events

At Open 008 i chronoed 2 JG guns completely stock and brand new shooting ~415fps. Most events here in ohio, the limit is 400.

So my question is for other event organizers. What do we do about it? Do we start turning them down? How can we educate these people who intend to purchase a gun and attend an event where we know they'll be shooting hot? Should we now come up with a list of acceptable stock guns at events?(or a list of unacceptable guns)

If it were a modified gun, i'd have no problems telling that person they cant play. You modified it and knew the violation of rules while doing it. But these two cases were kids who just went to a store and bought a gun and came out to an event (2 hours away) assuming since it was stock and brand new that they'd be able to play.

please dont give advice unless you know your thoughts are reasonable and carry weight.
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:54 PM
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I can understand the situation with the players who have never chrono'd their guns and show up to play at an organized event for the first time. Most of these players have no idea what their guns are actually shooting. That does not change the fact that at some fields the 400 fps limit is set by insurance companies and not by hosts. For that reason there has to be a zero tolerance.

If the policy for the field hard-lines guns at 400 fps then there is no room for error. If your gun is shooting well above the posted limits, then you need to do one of the following:

1. Know what your gun is shooting before attending events with FPS restrictions.
2. Bring another gun shooting under the posted limits in the event your primary is shooting above the posted limits.
3. Be prepared to be turn away from an event if you cannot produce a gun that meets the field FPS limits.
4. Tune your gun down to an acceptable FPS.

The JG 400+ gun is not going to go away and fields will not bend the rules to allow them to play. It is up to the players with these guns to tune the down or expect to be turned away.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:10 PM
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I agree with Mav and Evil Head. The FPS limits are put in place for safety reasons, and with all other rules put in place with safety in mind there is no room for bending nor should there be. If you dont have any idea what your gun is chronoing at then its probably not safe for you to be aiming at other living human beings.

I have been playing for many years and I would never think to even ask for leniency on the FPS limits, so why would a new player expect the special treatment?


I have some other thoughts on the subject but i cant remember them right now
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:18 PM
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I have to agree! I have a couple guns shooting over 400, but I would never think of taking them to an event that is FPS regulated.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:26 PM
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This issue isn't really cut and dry though. Insurance companies don't set any standard for BB weight, only velocity, so if the gun shoots hot with .20g BB's, just use .25's. That isn't a very fair way to establish muzzle velocity limits. Red Dragon has APL Insurance and the paperwork Gary showed me only showed a hard limit of 400FPS. I don't remember seeing anything that mentioned BB weights.

In paintball, all paintballs are roughly the same weight because they are all the same size, and they are large enough that slight differences in weight doesn't change the mass all that much. Airsoft BB's are a difference story. Even though they are all the same size, they have different mass and therefore different weight. Therefore a .20g BB shot at 400fps with have much less energy than a .25g or .30g BB.

The discussion now moves into a whole new grey area. Do we limit guns to 400FPS as chrono'd with .12 gram BBs?? Or maybe .43?

In my opinion, the current AO Standard velocity rules are far more conservative than APL's paintball velocity standard. Airsoft maximum BB energy under AO rules are at most one third as much as the maximum paintball energy. My professional opinion is that until the APL sets hard bb weight limits, AO standard velocity limits is more than acceptable. But that should be the rule of law.

It would be best for players to ensure that players have their guns chrono'd prior to going to games. Local airsoft shops are more than happy to chrono guns for their customers.

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Old 05-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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I don't think there is a need to question it. I believe a standard has been established in the community. One that "works" in line with the insurance companies despite their lack of knowledge on BB weight.

400 fps with .20g BB's. Why even open it up for debate other than to change the rule for the minority rather than asking the minority to comply with the standard set by the majority.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
I don't think there is a need to question it. I believe a standard has been established in the community.

400 fps with .20g BB's. Why even open it up for debate other than to change the rule for the minority rather than asking the minority to comply with the standard set by the majority.
My point exactly
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:51 PM
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We already get enough people who want to chrono their guns with .25s to keep them under the age/MED limits, we should absolutely not even open this conversation to that option. It can only end in trouble.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:24 PM
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I feel like a jackass now because I am basically the same as the guys the original poster is talking about.

I just up and decided one day I wanted to play airsoft, bought a JG M4 S-System which is supposedly 420 FPS (I bought this before I knew the standards of FPS). I say supposedly because I have never actually had it chronoed.

At the moment I am considering selling it to my buddy (who only plays in unofficial games [read: his backyard, 40 acres]) for like $130 (originally $155) and then purchasing a different gun, I'm not exactly sure what I am going to do.

This, and my lack of tactical gear is what is keeping me from attending these sweet events.

Note: I'm NOT one of the guys the original poster is talking about, I am just in the same situation. The difference being I didn't drive 2 hours to an event just to not be able to play.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreamingBadger View Post

Note: I'm NOT one of the guys the original poster is talking about, I am just in the same situation. The difference being I didn't drive 2 hours to an event just to not be able to play.
This is understood and in most cases we try to remedy the problem at the field so that you can play. I lent my gun to a few people who were in the same situation as you. Nobody wants to be turned away especially if they didn't know what their gun was shooting. Not everyone has access to a chrono.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
400 fps with .20g BB's. Why even open it up for debate other than to change the rule for the minority rather than asking the minority to comply with the standard set by the majority.
Why? Because the community has had FPS standard set in stone since 2002. Those standards are known to be safe and the energy requirements of the established AO limites fall well below the current paintball standard. And since ABL has not established the BB weight for the 400 FPS limit, the sky is really the limit. As I said earlier, and what I think people are failing to understand, is that I can make a gun that shoots .30g BB's 400 FPS, and according to APL, I'm legal. Obviously I would be shooting well over 500 FPS with .20g BB's.

- The Airsoft Ohio standard of 400FPS (+/- 3% variance) as chrono'd with .20 gram BBs for ALL guns capable of full auto.

- The Airsoft Ohio standard of 500FPS (+/- 2% variance) as chrono'd with .20 gram BB's for ALL guns which shoot between the 400-500FPS limit must have FULL-AUTO function permanently disabled.

These are the two key benchmarks for gun performance and have been since 2002 for Airsoft Ohio and even longer in other states and other organizations. There are some organizations that allow high velocities, and some that restrict users to lower velocities. I don't see any reason to move away from the old standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
We already get enough people who want to chrono their guns with .25s to keep them under the age/MED limits, we should absolutely not even open this conversation to that option. It can only end in trouble.
As I currently understand APL's FPS limits, it's is ONLY a 400FPS limit with no BB weigh limit, so what you're referring to is already a danger. I'm going to check with APL to verify their velocity standards and report back.

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  #12  
Old 05-18-2009, 03:48 PM
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Something else insurance doesn't consider is MEDs. I'm going to assume that their standards are measured at 0 MED.

I agree that we don't need to be pushing the limits because newer guns are coming with higher FPS. The higher FPS is merely a marketing tool for these low priced guns. Hey kids look! It's cheap and it shoots 450 fps. BUY ME NOW.

Certainly APL needs to clarify it's limits.
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Old 05-18-2009, 03:51 PM
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Darkstar, what you said about bb's carrying less energy doesn't really mean much when you're comparing bb's to paintballs.
1. Paintballs rupture.
2. BB's have a much smaller surface area.

When the paintball ruptures, much of the energy is dissipated over a larger area because the paintball just went from one size, to much larger so the force is put out over a larger area. Paintballs are 68 caliber if i'm not mistaken, when they hit something they will be much larger than that for a split second, think of it like throwing a water balloon at something and it doesn't pop, the balloon if watched on a high speed camera will flatten out then go back to it's original shape, force dissipated over large area.

Now for the smaller surface area of a BB. This basically means that since it has a smaller area of impact, the force per square inch will be higher than if you took something with the same force and weight, but stretched it out to a foot wide. If you ever do any construction work, when you screw stuff together you use washers. Why? so that you don't put as much force on the wood or whatever you're putting the screw into, it puts the force out over a larger area.

EDIT:
What really shows this best is that I've never seen a picture of someone with a Paintball stuck in thier skin, but i've seen bb's stuck in skin. A paintball will leave a nasty bruise if it's shot really high, but a BB can and will penetrate skin, and leave a nice bruise.
:EDIT

It's for those reasons that i think there should be strict rules with the FPS of airsoft guns. We could just add MEDs, but this problem that Mavrick has pointed out will be more with new people, who will not (usually) be as capable of judgeing MEDs properly.

Something to be said to those that buy a gun, if you have a chance, take it to an Airsoft Store and see if you can chrono it, if it shoots hot you can have them down grade it right there.

Last edited by British; 05-18-2009 at 03:56 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-18-2009, 04:26 PM
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Darkstar, when you ask the APL about their specifications, please ask for the energy delivered at point-blank range. From there we can figure everything else out. However, I don't see any reason why we should rock the boat and change something that has worked well for us for so long. Change isn't always good.

And Bubbaplay is correct about the force over area, or pressure. A BB has much more penetration power than a paintball at speed.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaplay View Post
Darkstar, what you said about bb's carrying less energy doesn't really mean much when you're comparing bb's to paintballs.
1. Paintballs rupture.
2. BB's have a much smaller surface area..
Actually, it means a lot, especially when you account for mass, energy and surface area. Let's look at what you don't know about paintballs and relate it to airsoft. First, let me begin by citing the ASTM:

Quote:
ASTM International Standard F 1979 - 04, Standard Specification for Paintballs Used in the Sport of Paintball, specifies in requirement 3.3 that paintballs shall not weigh more than 3.5 grams. There is not a minimum weight requirement.
Now we can do a more direct comparison between airsoft and paintball. You can figure out that a typical 3.5 gram paintball travelling 250 feet per second will produce 10.1 Joules of impact energy. A .20 gram airsoft BB travelling the same velocity only produces .58 Joules of energy.

250 FPS:
3.5 gram paintball = 10.1 Joules
.20 gram airsoft BB = .58 Joules

Now lets compare the same projectiles at doulbe that velocity (and yes, I know that the APL doesn't allow anything over 300FPS for paintball).

500FPS:
3.5 gram paintball = 40.6 Joules
.20 gram airsoft BB = 2.32 Joules

Wow, in this case, a paintball has 17.5 times more energy than an airsoft BB! That would be nasty.

Now, a .20 gram BB travelling 400FPS has 1.49 Joules of energy.

Lets go back and look at the maximum that the APL allows at paintball fields, which is 300FPS for paintballs, which comes out to 14.6 Joules. Still WAY more than an airsoft BB. As a matter of fact, a .20 gram airsoft BB must travel at 328 to produce just 1 joule.

As far as impact energy of a paintball, since it is not rock solid and it will (hopefully) break upon impact lessing the amount of energy that is applied to the target, well, that's anyone's best guess. Since Spectre is a physics major, maybe he can come up with a calculation to take in all of the variables, I don't know.

What I do know is that getting shot at point black range with an airsoft .20g BB at 500 FPS or a paintball at 300 FPS while actually holding the muzzle up to your arm and pulling the trigger is going hurt like hell! You're not going to be happy at all about it, and you'll probably create a new pirate song in the process. But neither one is going to penetrate your skin. The paintball will definitely leave a bruise that will probably last for several months, while the airsoft impact will likely be gone within a few weeks.

BTW, the images you typically see of airsoft BB's that have penetrated the skin are usually from guns shooting above the 600FPS mark (as chrono'd with .20g BBs). There are events in HK where people crank their AEG's up as high as they possibly can.

Regardless of that, it's very easy to see that paintballs product more energy than an airsoft BB, even though I'd like to know how the impact surface area effects the difference between an airsoft BB and a paintball. Hey Spectre, do you have any kind of equipment at your school that can measure impact energy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaplay View Post
EDIT:
What really shows this best is that I've never seen a picture of someone with a Paintball stuck in thier skin, but i've seen bb's stuck in skin. A paintball will leave a nasty bruise if it's shot really high, but a BB can and will penetrate skin, and leave a nice bruise.
:EDIT
As stated above, these arren't the norm. I've never personally seen anyone ever get a BB shot under their skin. Only seen less than a handful of photos and one video. Not to mention, a paintball will break apart of shot in the 600FPS+ velocity range. Heck, paintballs will break apart pretty easily above 400FPS too. A rubber BB will penetrate your skin if shot fast enough too. A lot of things will penetrate your skin if shot fast enough. But within the established maximum 500FPS limit of Airsoft Ohio, an airsoft BB won't penetrate. Believe me, I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaplay View Post
It's for those reasons that i think there should be strict rules with the FPS of airsoft guns. We could just add MEDs, but this problem that Mavrick has pointed out will be more with new people, who will not (usually) be as capable of judgeing MEDs properly.
What really pisses me off here is that I made the same argument LAST year and people pissed and moaned and flamed me and called me a Nazi and all kinds of other crap!

Look, I'm not out to tell someone that if you're gun is shooting 401FPS that you CAN'T play! But we have to establish a REASONABLE rule set, and THOSE rules MUST be taken seriously. Let me spell it out for you since the retarded Admin won't repost the old velocity Airsoft Ohio velocity limitation chart. This is taken directly from the old Airsoft Ohio site:

http://web.archive.org/web/200208020...hpBB/rules.php
Quote:
Rule 6A: The maximum weight of a bullet, that is a 6mm plastic or biodegradable, is 0.36 grams. All weapons belong to one of the following three classes:
- Support Weapons: Any weapon that can fire full auto and/or has multiple HiCaps (High Capacity Magazines) or Box magazines. Maximum of 3500 BBs. The weapon is full length with bipods or look like a real support weapon. Maximum energy is 1.5J and no heavier BB's than 0.25g.
- Sniper Rifles: Any weapon that is either a semi or bolt action rifle. Full auto capability and HiCap’s aren't allowed. Maximum energy is 2.32J.
- Standard Weapons: A weapon that is classified as any weapon other than those above. Maximum energy is 1.5J and the bullets weight can't be heavier than 0.25g and no more than 600BB's.

The following engagement rules must be obeyed at all times (FPS measured with 0.2 grams):

- 0-350fps: Full auto and no engagement limit.

- 350-399: Full auto 25' minimum distance.

- 400-449: Semi auto 50' minimum distance.

- 450-500: Semi Auto 75' Minimum Distance.

This means that if you are using a replica that chronos between 350-399 FPS. Then you may NOT, under any circumstance, fire upon someone within 25'. You may attempt to "Surrender" them, but if they refuse to surrender, you still may NOT fire upon them.

In the spirit of good sportsmanship, it is encouraged that if you are surrended by someone with an upgraded replica within the minimum engagement limit, that you honor that surrender.

Replica's that are upgraded with the intention of beeing in the 350-399 FPS range will be allowed a 5% tolerance on a case by case basis.

Replica's that are upgraded with the intention of beeing in the 450-500FPS range will be allowed a 2% tolerance on a case by case basis.
Now, if you read really carefully, you'll notice something just above that talks about "tolerance". The word should actually read "variance", but anyway. AO limits allow for as much as a 5% variance in muzzle velocity over the maximum tier standard. So for 400 FPS, that would allow any player to legally get by if their gun shoots up to 420 feet per second. HOWEVER, this should not be used (as it was by people in the AO community last year) as a way to legally upgrade your guns to the 415-420 mark.

Even at my events, I only used a 3% variance for 400FPS guns, and a 2% variance for 500FPS guns. At 3%, a gun could technically shoot as fast as 412FPS and still be legal, but again, these "variance" rules are established to allow for guns to adjust to different atmospheric conditions that effect a gun's performance, like air pressure, temperature and humidity, and also for variances in different BB's. I know that my PTW shoots about 395FPS, but occasionally a stray BB might chrono randomly at 405 or 410. But as long as the average of my shots is at 400FPS or below, then I feel good that I have a safe gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaplay View Post
Something to be said to those that buy a gun, if you have a chance, take it to an Airsoft Store and see if you can chrono it, if it shoots hot you can have them down grade it right there.
People can always bring their guns into Airsoft Arms and get it chrono's, as long as we have time and our chrono is available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
Darkstar, when you ask the APL about their specifications, please ask for the energy delivered at point-blank range. From there we can figure everything else out. However, I don't see any reason why we should rock the boat and change something that has worked well for us for so long. Change isn't always good.
I just talked with Gary at Red Dragon Paintball. He told me that he no longer goes through the APL for insurance and that he changed to a new company this year. He did not have the paperwork in front of him, and he said he would call his insurance provider tomorrow and get the information. Again, in the old paperwork from the APL, there was no weight limit set for the BB's, only velocity. So effectively, that could mean we could all use guns shooting 400FPS with .30 gram BB's, which isn't really what I would consider to be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
And Bubbaplay is correct about the force over area, or pressure. A BB has much more penetration power than a paintball at speed.
While I'm sure your reasoning is sound, I'm not convinced of this yet. Based on the calulations of energy above, it would seem like the surface area really isn't an issue, that the paintball still carries more energy. While it's obvious that the airsoft BB has more penetration potential, I'm not sure if it would matter if the paintball were also a solid object (anyone want to get shot with a frozen paintball travelling at 600+FPS??) lol.

Spectre, can you calculate the impact surface area for both a paintball and an airsoft BB?

Any to get back to Mavrick's original question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrick View Post
At Open 008 i chronoed 2 JG guns completely stock and brand new shooting ~415fps. Most events here in ohio, the limit is 400.

So my question is for other event organizers. What do we do about it? Do we start turning them down? How can we educate these people who intend to purchase a gun and attend an event where we know they'll be shooting hot? Should we now come up with a list of acceptable stock guns at events?(or a list of unacceptable guns)
Technically speaking, according to the current and established ruleset for Airsoft Ohio sanctioned games, both guns would be completely legal to use at all Airsoft Ohio games. There wouldn't really be much you can do about it, other than to offer them a warning that even though they are covered under the existing rules, their guns fall into the variance category and that they should be downgraded to shoot consistently under 400FPS. Being that they are JG guns, their springs will probably eventually settle down to below 400, but that doesn't help them in the short term.

There won't ever be a list of approved stock guns, because you never really know what you're going to get. What are you going to do to determine that list? Order 10 of each kind of gun and test them to establish as basis for comparison? Of course not. So it just boils down to educating people that "THESE ARE THE FPS LIMITS: XYZ. BE SURE YOUR GUN IN SHOOTING WITHIN THOSE LIMITS OR YOU WILL BE TURNED AWAY, NO EXCEPTIONS!!" and leave it at that. Pretty simple really.

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Last edited by Darkstar; 05-18-2009 at 06:02 PM.
  #16  
Old 05-18-2009, 06:09 PM
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I know at Airsoftsmith, every gun is chronographed and the average is told to the buyer. Andy and the guys there also make sure to let people know if they're going to be shooting hot at certain fields before they sell the gun, so I know that even new people who step foot inside those places are educated to a certain level once they leave with their gun.

Turn people down who are averaging out over 400 if the policies are set simply by the organizer. If the gun chrono's over 400 FPS - period - at an insurance regulated field, then deny them access. It should be a no-brainer. People need to do their homework before they show up to a game.

If they have no access to a chronograph, then its difficult to say "Sorry dude, you're shafted" after they drive three hours to an event. But in my opinion, that (unfortunately) needs to be how it is if we want to keep these safety rules in place. New players need to learn, and experienced players should already know. Rules are rules, real world or Airsoft.
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Old 05-18-2009, 06:20 PM
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Red,

We do the same thing at Airsoft Arms, and do everything we possibly can to educate newbies. Unfortunately with some people, the excitement of buying an airsoft gun can lead to short term memory loss. lol. The large issues isn't who buys from me, but rather the people who don't. I don't sell JG guns, so those people attending events should be sure to read the rules prior to coming out to the game, or else they're going to suffer the consequences.

Every event I've ever done, I've established my rules, and not let people play who fell outside of those rules. It's really simple.

Darkstar out.
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Old 05-18-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstar View Post
Every event I've ever done, I've established my rules, and not let people play who fell outside of those rules. It's really simple.

Darkstar out.

Bingo-bango. That right there, that needs to happen at every event.
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Old 05-18-2009, 06:33 PM
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Yep, but it does tend to piss people off sometimes. I can surely imagine making a long drive only to have my gun refused upon chronoing. I wouldn't be happy either, but the rules have to be the rules. You can't say, oh yea, you can go ahead and play, which is essentially what's happening now.

I go by AO rules, because I know they're safe. The only difference is I use a 3% variance at 400FPS instead of 5%. No gun that I've ever worked on has had a velocity variance as much as 20FPS. 3% gives people enough of a fair variance in the case where a change in the weather might bump them up over 400, but not enough of a difference to create a dangerous situation or an unfair advantage.

In the Pre-Event thread, there MUST be velocity rules posted in BIG HUGE RED LETTERS!! Stating what the rules are, for those who are unsure to get their gun checked, and those who's guns are above those rules, whatever they are WILL be turned away. Then they can't blame anyone but themselves if they went to the event because they didn't read the BIG HUGE and RED print! lol.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:22 PM
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Tolerance is the appropriate word. From Webster:

3: the allowable deviation from a standard
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:28 PM
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Something like this Darkstar?

max fps outdoors= 400 fps!
If you fail to comply you'll have time to think about how you fail on your 3 hour drive home.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2009, 08:37 PM
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Something like this Darkstar?

max fps outdoors= 400 fps!
If you fail to comply you'll have time to think about how you fail on your 3 hour drive home.
Maybe alittle bit bigger
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:42 PM
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Darkstar, here's the surface area for an Airsoft BB and a Paintball.

surface area of sphere = 4*pi*radius^2
BB = 4 * 3.14 * 3mm^2
= 4 * 3.14 * 9mm
= 113.04 mm^2
Paintball = 4 * 3.14 * 0.34in^2
= 4 * 3.14 * 0.1156 in
= 1.451936 in^2
BB = 0.17521235 in^2
PB = 1.451936 in^2

250 FPS:
3.5 gram paintball = 10.1 Joules
.20 gram airsoft BB = .58 Joules

those figures are directly from your previous post Darkstar, now to find out the force in joules per square inch, you just divide the joules by the surface area.

Joules/in^2
BB = .58 J / 0.17521235 in^2
= 3.31 J/in^2
PB = 10.1 J / 1.451936 in^2
= 6.956 J/in^2

So once you crunch the numbers, a paintball really doesn't have that much more force than a BB, all because of the area over which it is disperesed. MORE SO a BB is rigid and when it hits an object like a human, doesn't lose it's shape so all it's force is put into where it hits, which is a very small area. The paintball will stretch and snap when hit hits a person dissapating the force from the impact over a larger area. Don't believe me? Take some bb's that have chalk or something on them and shoot something that won't get a hole in it so a mark is left. Compare the size of this mark to the BB, it will be about the same size. You do this same thing with a paintball and it will be much larger than the paintball, i've seen 2 to 3 times the diameter of paintballs sometimes. It's not so much the Joules that it carries, but how it delievers it. I'll agree that a FROZEN paintball complete throws this out the window, which is probably why the rules are as they are with paintball, but a BB puts much more force into one specific area, a Paintball is like a shotgun, it spreads.

I'm not trying to disrepect you or anything, if it comes across like that i'm sorry. I do fully agree with you however that we need strict rules about FPS limits. I upgraded my M16 to make sure it would fall 20 below the limit so that i'd be safe, i didn't want to toe the line in the case that something bad happens. Today while i was target shooting i saw one shot come out with a pathetic FPS (dropped 20 yards in front of the target) and another one fly on way farther than it should, so i know variences happen from first hand experience, which is why i made my gun as it is.

I've never gone with the thought of "can't you just make an exception?" if my gun were to shoot too hot, i'd be perfectly fine playing with my side arm all day, i've done it before.

Last edited by British; 05-18-2009 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:43 PM
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If that's the case, I'm going to upgrade my PTW to shoot 400FPS with .30g BBs!!
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:49 PM
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If that's the case, I'm going to upgrade my PTW to shoot 400FPS with .30g BBs!!
You will not be permitted to play at Red Dragon LOL.
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