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  #26  
Old 07-02-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
Is it really that important to airsoft? I've said it before, so I'm stupid? It's on the level of calling a tissue a Klenex. A Klenex is a brand not a tissue, but everyone understands what you mean. Xerox became acceptable for copy. In fact I have seen a thesaurus use clip and mag as synonyms. It may pain the diehards out there, but this is never going to go away. If you are that much of a stickler about it then go argue it on a military terms website.

Oh by the way, I know the difference... but in the heat a the moment I may just be "stupid" and call it a clip. When everyone gets down off their high horse perhaps we can just play airsoft.

Well, I'm certainly trying not to come off like I'm on a high horse, so I hope no one got that impression. I do see a problem with your analogy though. Kleenex is a brand name. Over 90% of the products made by Kleenex are some form of facial tissue. Kleenex also makes napkins and wet wipes. Kleenex was also the first company to invent the facial tissue that we so commonly use today. Also, Kleenex remained the only company to make these kinds of facial tissues for years. Because of the long lives monopoly on the facial tissue market, most people stopped referring to facial tissues as "facial tissues" and just called them Kleenex instead.

Xerox is also a name brand which is commonly associated with making copies because like Kleenex, they were the first to market commercially available copy machines and also was THE largest provider of copiers thoughout the late 1970's and 1980's. Today the Xerox term is less used. I can't remember the last time I asked someone to "xerox" something. But I wouldn't be surprised if I heard someone else say that.

And yes, I've seen several different thesarusessessessassss use the two terms synonymously as well, but that still doesn't mean it's correct.

"Clip" and "magazine" are not name brands. They are objects designed to do a specific job. A clip cannot act as a magazine, and a magazine cannot do the same thing as a clip. Gunny summed it up about as easy as you can put it. Using the two terms interchangably is wrong. Calling a magazine a "clip" is akin to calling a Kleenex a Kotex. I'm not going to bring down the wrath of the gods on someone because they said "hand me another clip!!", but a tear may come to my eye for a moment, and then I'll give them a quick lesson explaining the differences and at least tell them the proper wording so that they don't make the same grammar mistake again. And EvilHead, if you're the one who asks me for the clip, I WILL cry. lol.

I mean, if you or anyone else was going around saying something wrong all the time, and people thought you were weird, wouldn't you want someone to correct you?? From my earlier example, if someone was going around calling a Kleenex (or other common facial tissue) a Kotex, then there would definitely be a major problem. Try going up to your buddy and asking him for a Kotex, you're likely to get your butt whopped!! I'd want someone to tell me that what I was saying was incorrect.

But I guess it all depends on what kind of people you're around. I can't count how many times I've seen people refer to magazines as "clips" at the Shot Show, only to get odd looks from exhibitors. lol. So I guess if you're around people that don't know better, it's not going to make a difference. And while I do understand that people misuse the term "clip" in place of mag or magazine and that many people view that as acceptable. I think people should learn what is correct and incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
... in a perfect world, people will use the exact terminology. Problem occurs here in the forums when people jump on others for using the wrong terms. Some people suffer a massive amount of negative rep for using the wrong terms. Like the rep I will receive for making my point. This comes up at least twice a month. It's old, and I'm sure the poor new guy who just got flame for it thinks it's old. It doesn't take one to know the real world terminology to be a good, friendly and safe player on the field. It only takes one overbaring posting snob to chase that person away. Who would I rather have on my team... the guy who uses the wrong terms but is a good guy.
Well, when people jump down other people's throats for it, then I think those people are the jerks, not the ones misusing the terminology. I would suggest that maybe we should make this post a general forum Sticky so that newbies will see, read it and learn the correct terminology. How do you think that would work??

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Last edited by Darkstar; 07-02-2007 at 06:05 PM.
  #27  
Old 07-02-2007, 06:20 PM
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Making a sticky about it would be great IMO.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:48 PM
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Invisiblesword, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Making this a sticky would only add to the clutter of the AO forums. Perhaps sticking this in the new Knowledge Base that Loki has been slacking on (his words, not mine! ) would be best? I mean, making a sticky for a simple definition is kind of unnecessary. That would be like making a thread that defines the the AR15 a sticky. Useful, sure, but most definitely not needed.
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:02 PM
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I agree with the no sticky statement.

This would just add to the clutter of the forums, and we don't need that at all.
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2007, 08:08 PM
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I didn't mean this thread, but a different thread without all the reply's that this one has.

Last edited by invisiblesword; 07-02-2007 at 08:10 PM.
  #31  
Old 07-02-2007, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
You are in the middle of a heavy gun fight.
You run out of ammo. You turn to your team and yell "I'm out, throw me a clip!"
You are shot dead because your teammates are "vocab snobs" and give you a lecture on Clips vs. Mags instead of throwing you a "Mag".
I don't think it's so much "snobism" as it's just plain wrong to call a clip a mag, they are entirely different things. If you wanted a banana, would you look at the guy next to you and ask for an apple? If you wanted an Ipod, would you look at the guy next to you and ask for a "zune"? No, you wouldn't.

We are replicating the military, and doing impressions. The military is all about attention to detail (or at least that's what I understand). It seems slightly odd that we persist in calling things something they are not.
  #32  
Old 07-02-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
I don't see the point of getting so pissy about something so trivial. They are common misnomers and in the grand scheme of things, don't amount to jack squat.

If you want a person to learn "correct terminology" there are better ways to go about it. Certainly not worth flaming someone simply because they use the wrong word.

Not all airsofters are that frenzied over being 100% accurate on everything regarding guns, military, gear, etc. Some actually enjoy playing the game, rather than being the uber-leet expert on onomatopoetic nomenclature of replica firearms.

There are far more important things in airsoft to worry about like is the city council going to pass a resolution banning all sales of airsoft because the less intelligent airsofters can't get it into their heads that playing in the parking lot is a bad idea or that carrying their guns around with them in public is just stupid.
I have to disagree with you. If we can't get our own terminology right, how can we shield the sport/game from litigation. Gang-bangers call magazines "clips", soldiers for the most part, do not. Which would you rather be?

Back in the paintball days, before it went mainstream, we used to call paintball guns "guns" instead of "markers". Nobody said crap about it, then all of the sudden, Walmart starts carring paintball guns, everyone starts wearing jerseys, and well, the rest is history.
  #33  
Old 07-02-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
Uhh... Thanks again for the lecture. I'll remind you that I know the difference. I'm making the point that it is getting old every time this is posted, over and over, again and again. Heaven forbid, that there are some players who don't know the difference. Why should you care? They may not be into Milsim as much as you are.

NOTE: not all players are here to replicate the military. And if they're not, should we kick them to the curb?
I would like to see you point out someone that isn't. To answer your question, no, I don't think we should. But I don't think anyone has the right to complain if someone gets on their case about using the wrong terminology.
  #34  
Old 07-02-2007, 09:07 PM
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Hey man, I still use my high 8 camera for filming(thats a camera that uses film).
  #35  
Old 07-02-2007, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
Loki,
You've never asked someone to "Film" something with a video camera? When was the last time anyone at home used film. But I am asked countless times to "film" something and I don't jump down their throat, because I know what they meant.

Same thing! Guy on AO says "Clip" and people just freak! Nep rep and the whole nine yards.
Since I know next to nothing about the technical terms of videotography, is the term "film" acceptable in the videography field? I mean, if a fellow videographer were to say to you "I need to film this", would that be out of place?
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  #36  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:03 PM
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Right, if someone "inside the biz" were to say that, you question his knowledge and capabilities within the industry.

I considering anyone posting on an airsoft forum to be "in the biz" of playing airsoft, so they shouldn't be using terms that someone outside the biz would use.

It's not a big deal, but it is annoying.
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  #37  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:22 PM
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My Grandfather was in the United States Navy for 6 Years and he still calls Magazines Clips. If we're all arguing about MILSIM, I've seen so many people call Magazines Clips that are in and have been in the Military. I was recently watching the Military Channel, they were discussing the M16,they showed variants, they called the M4 an M16. And also called Magazines clips. I don't care if someone calls a Magazine a clip. I don't see what the argument is about. If I want to call a Magazine a clip go ahead, kill a kitten, call me a noob, ban me, I don't care. Calling a Clip a Magazine shouldn't matter.
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  #38  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:26 PM
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When your grandfather was in the Navy, they probably still used clips.

I wouldn't kill a kitten or ban you, but I would probably think you were a noob.
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  #39  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:29 PM
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An M4 is an M16, though. Well, a member of the M16 family.
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  #40  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:32 PM
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He was issued an M1911, he was a Pistol Marksman....So an M1911 takes clips? Uh oh..
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  #41  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of liberty View Post
He was issued an M1911, he was a Pistol Marksman....So an M1911 takes clips? Uh oh..
According to your grandfather, I guess it does.

BTW, my previous comment was a joke, learn to take one.
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  #42  
Old 07-03-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
Loki,
You've never asked someone to "Film" something with a video camera? When was the last time anyone at home used film. But I am asked countless times to "film" something and I don't jump down their throat, because I know what they meant.

Same thing! Guy on AO says "Clip" and people just freak! Nep rep and the whole nine yards.
First, I have NEVER given anyone negative rep for calling a magazine a "clip".

Secondly, and I'm not trying to jump down your throat EvilHead, but I still strongly disagree with your analogies. Evilhead, you are comparing things that are alike to things that are not. "Kleenex", a brand of facial tissue, is a term used for "facial tissue". "Xerox", also company that invented the commercial copy machine, is a generally accepted term for making a paper/photo copy. "Film" is a generally accepted term that implies the filming of a video or movie, regardless of media used, whether actual film, tape, or digital media. All of your examples are comparisons of objects or products that all do the same things. A facial tissue of another brand is still a facial tissue, making a copy on a Konica copier produces the same result as a Xerox machine, and capturing motion in a moving-pictures format is going to be the same or similar regardless of using film, tape or digital video technology.

A clip and a magazine are NOT the same. They have two completely separate functions. This is the reason people are so vocal about making the distinction known and corrected. People are vocal about it because using the terms to describe the same object is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if you're playing Milsim or not, a "clip" IS NOT a magazine, and a "magazine" IS NOT a clip. A clip CANNOT operate the way a magazine can, and a magazine CANNOT do the same function that clips were made for.

Now, to do some more history, the who "Hey!! Give me another clip!!!" started back when rifles were still loaded with clips (like the one demonstrated by Gunny in the video in the first post). The magazine of the rifle was inside the gun itself and was not removable like magazines are these days. Do to that fact, clips were developed as an easy way to load the magazines of such rifles. So when someone was out of ammo, they would yell to their buddy, "Give me a clip" or something similar, so that they could quickly load their rifles and continue firing.

As technology progressed, magazines became external to rifles, but many people still called the magazines "clips", even though the term is actually incorrect.

Now, to go back to comparing like objects, if someone needed a clip and he said, "Give me a magazine!!", then again, he'd be wrong too. He can't perform the same function with a magazine when he really needs a clip. But, if someone who owns a Konica copier says "Can you Xerox this for me?", the same function can still be performed.

I hope that clears things up. For those who still need help, maybe this video will shed some new light: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyNgfcIIaeE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of liberty View Post
He was issued an M1911, he was a Pistol Marksman....So an M1911 takes clips? Uh oh..
Nope, the M1911 uses magazines, not clips.

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  #43  
Old 07-03-2007, 02:04 PM
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I'm sorry, I've been in the military. I know the difference between a clip and a magazine. And I still call it a clip every now and then. I KNOW that when a person is talking about a rifle and they say clip that they are refering to a magazine. I don't think the person looks stupid at all. We have all heard them called clips. If you don't know what a person is asking for when they yell "I'm out throw me a clip!" then I'm afraid it makes you look stupid not the person waiting patiently for a magazine while you are trying to figure out what a clip is. Airsoft is supposed to to fun. If you keep harping on ppl about proper terminology how much fun is it going to be? There will ALWAYS be someone calling them clips. Deal with it. This isn't the military. Let ppl call them whatever they want. All that matters is that the people on his team know what he's talking about.
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  #44  
Old 07-03-2007, 03:08 PM
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Cool, I'm going to start calling my rifle a banana!
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  #45  
Old 07-03-2007, 03:14 PM
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  #46  
Old 07-03-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Cool, I'm going to start calling my rifle a banana!


Just make sure you chrono it!
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  #47  
Old 07-03-2007, 04:16 PM
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Ok, I hope that we all got this out of our system..

P.S. Locutus in response to your Neg Rep you gave me, I still don't see why it matters if someone calls a Magazine a Clip...
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  #48  
Old 07-03-2007, 05:43 PM
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Wouldn't it just be easier to just nicely correct someone when they say "clip" instead of "mag" rather than having a discussion about this? People have said "I need a clip" to me and I've thrown them a mag, you don't have to be rude and not help a teammate just because they might not have the "proper" knowledge about terms. It is a simulation game played to have fun. Enlighten people with knowledge and if they argue with you don't say anything else, I told my new teammates to call them mags or else they would get pardon my term lynched by the "Angry Mag" people. I agree with Evil Head about not being allowed to post these argumentative topics, instead at the next OP or Skirmish you are at just say, "they are called mags, just to let you know." I think everyone should just blame video games and movies for the mix up.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:38 PM
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This reminds me of the time i was i korea, down to my last bit of ammo so i called out to my battle buddy "hey i need a clip" and next thing i know a clip board hits me i the face. Well i got killed because i could'nt see. Then in 69 i was in a bad fight with the V.C. remembering my mistake a said "i need a mag over here". Well next thing i know a catch a playboy in the face and yep you guess it, the little V.C. bastards got me. Now when i get brought back again to go to iraq i think i'll just say "i need ammo". If this sounds rediculous it's suppost to.
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  #50  
Old 07-04-2007, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost1186 View Post
People have said "I need a clip" to me and I've thrown them a mag, you don't have to be rude and not help a teammate just because they might not have the "proper" knowledge about terms.
I doubt anyone has ever been "rude and not help a teammate" just because they asked for a clip instead of a mag. No need for hyperbole.

This thread shouldn't have turned out argumentative, clips are not mags, this is a fact. So there really isn't anything to argue about.

I agree you don't need to be a jerk about it, to me it's more funny than anything.
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