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View Poll Results: What you like to see these rules implemented as AO recommended milsim rules?
Simple, as posted 23 18.25%
Complex, as posted 36 28.57%
Simple, but modified a bit 13 10.32%
Complex, but modified a bit 20 15.87%
I think that the recommended rules are fine the way they are. 34 26.98%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:01 PM
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Darkstar, 17 people have voted for the complex rules so far. I'd bet half don't show up currently to games ready to play. Many probably don't even know what it is they are voting their approval for. Get players to obey the current rules and show up ready to play and I'd consider innovative new ideas.

Also, to get a better understanding of the undertaking involved in organizing an event, I'll volunteer to help you, Strikers, SPEAR or any other team this summer. Don't ask me during the winter, though. I don't go outside until spring.

Last edited by Oddjob; 11-17-2007 at 12:04 PM.
  #52  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:03 PM
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Good point about the chrono issue. I've been to several Lion Claws events across the country with same FPS rules, same type event, same ammo and same weapon. Guess what. The SAME gun chrono's differently each time. At Irene 5 one chrono was reading 50-60 FPS LOW!

If the intent is to further break down the FPS categories, then some type of chrono standardization (or at least calibration) should be done. However, this just adds to the organizers workload.

BTW, I voted FOR the complex rules as an IDEAL situation. Unfortunately that rarely happens. In the end, MilSim FPS rules fall under the juristiction of the event organizer.
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Last edited by HardLock; 11-17-2007 at 12:10 PM.
  #53  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strikers_blade View Post
At this point, no matter what we all say, I think without actually putting an event together, we won't be able to do anything good.

Darkstar, when I you throwing an event together?
Well, I typically don't just throw events together and usually like to plan things out a bit. I'm not the big Milsim guy either, remember, but I don't think that using this system would be too difficult.
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  #54  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstar View Post
Well, I typically don't just throw events together and usually like to plan things out a bit. I'm not the big Milsim guy either, remember, but I don't think that using this system would be too difficult.
So if I understand right, you like to talk but hardly put anything into actions...I see now

Seriously though, I know it is easy to put rules and concept on paper but if we want any chances of succeeding with new rules, we better put them into action before going too far.

Strikers had a very realistic rule set for the medic 2 years ago. It involved medic cards, usage of seringues (fake) and all that stuff and while it sounded awesome on paper, we found out it was very demanding and players did not keep up with the system...so we had to abandon it.

Something else we tried was the low/reg mag only rule. As the 30rds mag were not reliable in all guns, we also dropped the project....no need to say we all lost money and interest into investing in low caps, no matter if they were getting better or not.

Great rules for 30 players is not the same thing than for 100 players. Now we can say we are not expecting all players to say yes to this but the smaller is your player pool, the hardest it will be to keep everyone involved. Just think on how many guys of your own team show at event and it will tell you how hard any kind of rules can survive or grow within the community.
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  #55  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:30 PM
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I was actually planning on attending on a bigger event this year, but if the event organizer decides to put these rules into effect I am litterally screwed and will not be attending.
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  #56  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:32 PM
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why would you be screwed?
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  #57  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
Darkstar, 17 people have voted for the complex rules so far. I'd bet half don't show up currently to games ready to play. Many probably don't even know what it is they are voting their approval for. Get players to obey the current rules and show up ready to play and I'd consider innovative new ideas.
Oddjob, player readiness is something that has always plagued airsoft games, and won't just stop because of something an organizer does. Heck, even at Safari Strike there are people late getting to the field every year. Are you always going to blame that on the event organizer?

Look, I've been hosting games for over two years, and let people know when certain things are going to happen, and if they're not ready, we go on without them. I can't say hosting events is easy. I've done enough of them completely by myself to know better. But when you have help, it definitely goes a long way to streamline the process. If you have someone manning the chrono, someone checking people in, and someone making sure everyone is getting their stuff together, it goes a LOT faster.

I think the people who are bothering to vote know what they are voting for. And for the love of all that it holy, these rules are just a suggestion for a more strict style of Milsim play. If you don't care or choose to attend these events, no one is going to hold a gun to your head and make you. I think that's the point some people here are missing.

Darkstar out.
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  #58  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:58 PM
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By all means create new rules for a better, more strict milsim experience. If you truly want to create a more lifelike military experience, it is everyone's responsibility to be mission ready at mission start. The military that airsofters are trying so hard to simulate is all about being ready, cocked and locked when you are told to be so. Super cool looking guns regulated to their real steel counter parts is crap if you are not mission ready on time. In the military, you have to be everywhere on time and ready to go. Simulate that, and milsim will mean something to me.

Also, I'm not blaming organizers for anything. Enforce your own rules. Players be on time and ready to make it easier on the organizers and fellow players. And take the word military out of milsim if you can't even operate under the miltary's most basic tenet of being ready when you are supposed to. Otherwise you have a bunch of yahoos with guns running around posing and wasting everyone elses time. Call it hillbillysim, or yahoosim or something like that, because that's all it is.

Last edited by Oddjob; 11-17-2007 at 01:14 PM.
  #59  
Old 11-17-2007, 02:35 PM
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Blade, I use a Classic army mp5 stock shooting 340 and my kwa glock 17 is shooting 330 stock on average.
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  #60  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
By all means create new rules for a better, more strict milsim experience. If you truly want to create a more lifelike military experience, it is everyone's responsibility to be mission ready at mission start. The military that airsofters are trying so hard to simulate is all about being ready, cocked and locked when you are told to be so. Super cool looking guns regulated to their real steel counter parts is crap if you are not mission ready on time. In the military, you have to be everywhere on time and ready to go. Simulate that, and milsim will mean something to me.

Also, I'm not blaming organizers for anything. Enforce your own rules. Players be on time and ready to make it easier on the organizers and fellow players. And take the word military out of milsim if you can't even operate under the miltary's most basic tenet of being ready when you are supposed to. Otherwise you have a bunch of yahoos with guns running around posing and wasting everyone elses time. Call it hillbillysim, or yahoosim or something like that, because that's all it is.
You know man, I can honestly count on one hand how many times I've ever actually gotten angry due to something I read on forums. This day is one of those days.

I don't know about you brother, but from the brief experience I had with the military, there was a whole lot of "hurry up and wait" activity going on. Then there is the whole "politics infuencing what weapons are issued". What about the sexual harassment classes and seminars? Those would be a blast. How about the "People getting promoted because they are liked versus being qualified" issue that seems to be a fairly common complaint. That would be awesome.

You know, I'm starting to agree with you, maybe we shouldn't try to change things and make them more interesting, maybe we should just leave things the way they are for all eternity. Come to think of it, maybe we should petition the Army to bring back Shermans and M1 Garands to have them reissued in place of the M16 and the Abrams, because obviously change is bad.

I've not seen any of the naysayers come up with any productive alternative whatsoever. All I see is a bunch of individuals that don't want the community to move forward so that they don't have to.

Sure, you can call me a Yahoo (I actually own a copy of "The Zombie Survival Guide") , call me a Hillbilly, or a Poser, I'd much rather be called one of them than selfish, arrogant, or snide.
  #61  
Old 11-17-2007, 04:30 PM
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Looks like Operation Strawman Argument is under way.

I called people who are not ready to go at start time a bunch of yahoos. Is that you?

Sorry I hurt your feelings. I'll stop now before I make anyone else mad. Good luck with your idea. If It makes things better and more interesting I'll apologize to everyone for having doubts.

Last edited by Oddjob; 11-17-2007 at 04:52 PM.
  #62  
Old 11-17-2007, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
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I've not seen any of the naysayers come up with any productive alternative whatsoever. All I see is a bunch of individuals that don't want the community to move forward so that they don't have to.
I nay-sayed to the idea (For the most part), and I wouldn't have to change a thing to fit under these new suggested rules. What about people like me, who see absolutely no improvement coming from this? By all means, improve MILSIM through change. But I think we could do it in different ways.

If we really want improvement, we can find new Medic rules instead of touching someone for a minute, which I, and the team I'm on, have been experimenting with and fiddling with through actual play, not on paper. We've also tried creating land-mines for use in mine-fields (Like the one at Wolf Forge). I don't believe it had mines, though.

We can also reinforce "Bang Bang" rules, and make it extremely strict. Also, the Parlay idea is amazing, and should be enforced. I had a parlay situation (Both of us were waiting and looking at each other....But the other player didn't have his gun pointed at me. I suggested parlay, but he said "you're dead", basically). Parlay is rarely needed, but it can come into play sometimes and it's a good thing to enforce and suggest.

I agree with Oddjob: We need to be on time as well. Being late sucks...and I've been guilty of being late several times when in unfamiliar situations. It even got me a speeding ticket one time. It sucks to hold up your fellow players, because as much as you want to just leave those people behind, it will effect your entire teams/sides performance. If you have one person out of the loop, you could screw up.

Communication: Make it mandatory that a squad has a designated RTO to radio back to command and other squad RTOs. Make a map for the RTO so he can relay positions and information to squads.

Make briefings longer, and more in-depth. Have Squad leaders and all command get the main briefing, and then they have time to pass on their info to the players they are leading.

Have player packets that are absolutely spotless and mandatory to have so they know exactly what is going on. Don't make EVERY player get them: Most won't do that. Make the SL's get the player packet and disperse it to their squad. Make it absolutely crystal clear that it needs to be done. If the SL doesn't have the player packet.

Make the command structure concrete. Make the brass do their jobs, and the rifleman do theirs.

Some of this is already being done, but it needs to be reinforced again and again.
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  #63  
Old 11-17-2007, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
What about people like me, who see absolutely no improvement coming from this?
No one expects everyone to agree on anything. That's life. I don't agree with the smoking ban, but apparently a lot of other people did, so that is how it goes.

So far, out of those who voted, ~80% agree with some sort of weapons class system.
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  #64  
Old 11-17-2007, 08:20 PM
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We now can all agree to disagree...no need to prove anything anymore. We need to host an event and see if it would work, period.
Out of those who said it would work, any of you can host an event with such rules???
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  #65  
Old 11-17-2007, 08:33 PM
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No one expects everyone to agree on anything. That's life. I don't agree with the smoking ban, but apparently a lot of other people did, so that is how it goes.

So far, out of those who voted, ~80% agree with some sort of weapons class system.
The smoking ban really has no relevance to this discussion. A health issue and a 50+/- FPS difference really have nothing in common.

What I'm saying is why are we focusing on something that will make such a minimal difference in play and rules that it won't even show, when we could be focusing on other things that would actually make a difference and an improvement in MILSIM?

Either way, I've stated that several times, and people still don't seem to catch on. It will make a very minimal difference in play. If we really want to relate Airsoft to their real-steel counterpart, make players use certain types of BB's. If we really want to give people an advantage or a disadvantage, then regulate the type of ammo, not the FPS. I wouldn't support that anyhow - It's ridiculous. I'm looking for fun, and realism mixed in. As long as it's safe, and not entirely intangible, why not?

Either way, discussion over for me. Kicking a dead horse won't do anything.

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  #66  
Old 11-17-2007, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
The smoking ban really has no relevance to this discussion. A health issue and a 50+/- FPS difference really have nothing in common.
Well, what they have in common is, a lot of people didn't agree that it would be a good idea, but more people thought it was. So it was put into effect. This was in response to you saying "What about people like me who don't agree with it?". It was my nice way of saying "tough".

Quote:
Either way, I've stated that several times, and people still don't seem to catch on. It will make a very minimal difference in play.
Oh, I think people are catching on to what you are saying, I know I am catching on to what you are saying. I just happen to think you are wrong.

As others have said, lets give it a try and see what happens, what is the worst thing that could happen?
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
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The smoking ban really has no relevance to this discussion. A health issue and a 50+/- FPS difference really have nothing in common.
His point wasn't about health issues and FPS differences, his point, and the relevance of it, had to do with everyone not always agreeing and not always getting what they voted for.
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  #68  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:31 PM
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Loki said there were basically people who agree, and people who don't agree because they don't want to improve. I was saying that I want to improve, but I disagree. Now do you see what I was saying?

I wasn't complaining, expecting that my opinion is really that important, I was explaining that there is a third party here.

I still think you're wrong for thinking it will make any big difference in the game.

Agree to Disagree.

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Old 11-17-2007, 11:38 PM
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Say a guy shows up to a milsim game wearing jeans and a t-shirt, with a tricked out MP5-PDW with an extended barrel going through a silencer, upgraded to 390FPS and it equals or outranges 80% of the guns on the field.

This guy probably would not be allowed to play, or at least it would be frowned upon, and it wouldn't have anything to do with his gun. To me, that is absurd. Does wearing jeans and a t-shirt REALLY make a big difference in how the game is played? Of course not, I've seen many guys in jeans and t-shirts hold their own. It's not permitted because it goes against the concept of milsim.

I could argue that these rules should be adopted for the simple principle of the concept, regalrdless of how much it actually effects game play.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Say a guy shows up to a milsim game wearing jeans and a t-shirt, with a tricked out MP5-PDW with an extended barrel going through a silencer, upgraded to 390FPS and it equals or outranges 80% of the guns on the field.

This guy probably would not be allowed to play, or at least it would be frowned upon, and it wouldn't have anything to do with his gun. To me, that is absurd. Does wearing jeans and a t-shirt REALLY make a big difference in how the game is played? Of course not, I've seen many guys in jeans and t-shirts hold their own. It's not permitted because it goes against the concept of milsim.

I could argue that these rules should be adopted for the simple principle of the concept, regalrdless of how much it actually effects game play.

Exactly. Milsim is a benchmark that players set for themselves to enhance the realism of airsoft as it pertains to military simulation. A higher standard is expected to meet the requirements of the genre, so it makes sense that we would want to refine to maximize the experience. The proposed FPS changes help to even the playing field (i.e. SAW reductions) and adjust FPS for a more realistic approach.

If you were going to put together Halo airsoft, for instance, wouldn't you strive to be as close to the game as possible for the best representation of the game? It's the same thing.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:15 AM
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Airsoft should be more about practicality than Realism. We should make it realistic, but we shouldn't make it so real that it voids practical priorities and/or rules.

I'd love to have air-strikes, helicopters, and drops that actually work well, but the thing is, they're too complicated. As shown in one of the Sunbury open plays, a "helo-drop" doesn't work all too well. I ran up to the helo (I was well out of engagement range on the other team), stood there, and said "If you land, one of you dies. Who wants it?"

Realism dies once you get people trying to drop from an imaginary Helo right near you. If we had actual helicopters with mounted '60's, that'd work. But it doesn't. Airstrikes are a really nifty and fun idea - But they cause too much confusion, as proven in OP: Electric Boogaloo. Both events were small events (even though boogaloo attracted close to 100 people), but they showed that sometimes realism isn't entirely practical.

Is it practical to limit guns 50 FPS lower than other guns? Not entirely. The 50 FPS difference, AGAIN, will not effect play almost at all.

What's the average effective range for an MP5K-PDW? 25m? Effective range of an M16? Closer to 400-500m? So the rules we're looking at aren't entirely all that realistic. Is it practical to make the certain SMG's shoot 150 FPS vs. an M16 shooting 350 FPS? No, because then the SMG's wouldn't be effective at all. Would it be practical to make the SMG's shoot 350, and the M16's shoot around 700 FPS? No, insurance would kill that, and the pain would kill it too - That'd suck getting hit with 700 FPS. And even still, the numbers are arbitrary.

The point I'm making is this - It's not practical to limit the guns with arbitrary numbers. Sure, it makes it slightly more realistic, but really only on paper. Like I've said before, 25-50 FPS won't mean anything in the field.

The advantage will be held with the better team in the end. Just like the military.

NOW I'm done. Again, agree to disagree. Feel free to get the last word in, too - I don't think we'll be changing each others minds any time soon.

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Old 11-18-2007, 12:27 AM
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Thanks for the last word, I will gladly take it. I and hold you to your word.

Quote:
Like I've said before, 25-50 FPS won't mean anything in the field.
If 50 FPS doesn't mean anything, I am at loss to explain why so many people over the years have dropped m100's into their guns....

Quote:
The advantage will be held with the better team in the end. Just like the military.
Using that logic, there should never be any ammo requirements, uniform requirements, etc.

I would go as far as recommending these rules in most all airsoft games, except the most relaxed paintsoft style games.
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Old 11-18-2007, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
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I agree with Oddjob: We need to be on time as well. Being late sucks...and I've been guilty of being late several times when in unfamiliar situations. It even got me a speeding ticket one time. It sucks to hold up your fellow players, because as much as you want to just leave those people behind, it will effect your entire teams/sides performance. If you have one person out of the loop, you could screw up.

Sometimes being late can't be helped. I was late to Safari Strike 3 because I had to wait on a team member to arrive before I could leave. Chronic lateness and taking forever to gear up is inexcusable at a milsim event, but it happens. It's up to the CO and his assigned officers to go around and push people to be ready.

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Communication: Make it mandatory that a squad has a designated RTO to radio back to command and other squad RTOs. Make a map for the RTO so he can relay positions and information to squads.

Again, this falls on the CO. It's part of the planning process to put together an effective comm network.


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Originally Posted by Red View Post
Make briefings longer, and more in-depth. Have Squad leaders and all command get the main briefing, and then they have time to pass on their info to the players they are leading.

This should be a no-brainer. Again, it's up to the CO and his assigned officers to keep people in line and on track.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post
Have player packets that are absolutely spotless and mandatory to have so they know exactly what is going on. Don't make EVERY player get them: Most won't do that. Make the SL's get the player packet and disperse it to their squad. Make it absolutely crystal clear that it needs to be done. If the SL doesn't have the player packet.

More common sense. That should be happening anyway. It's lazy teams and team leaders that hold everyone else up.


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Make the command structure concrete. Make the brass do their jobs, and the rifleman do theirs.

The CO should be picking people he knows he can trust. Unfortunately there are going to be times you just have to rely on people you don't know. That's why CO's should be communicating with their men weeks before an event to hash out the details and get everyone up to speed.

Everything you've listed here falls on the CO's to bring together. It's a lot of work for one person and it's a thankless job. That's why CO's need good men under them to help distribute the weight and responsibility. What's needed is more milsim oriented teams that take it seriously enough to be prepared as per the CO's orders. You can have the best plan in place, but you're nothing without the people to back it up.

I think I know why more people don't step up to the role of CO. It's a lot of work and if you fail it makes you feel like you let everyone down. You can only do so much and it's out of your hands.

Players that come to a milsim event and act like it's a weekend skirmish event are a real problem. Milsim players and teams need to be leading by example. If this were happening most of the problems you listed wouldn't exist.
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  #74  
Old 11-18-2007, 01:02 AM
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Red, 25 to 50 fps can mean the world in range. For example, at SS3, quite a few guys had to drop down to M100s from their M120s because they were 10 over. That lost them a good 50 feet per second. that extra leniency can give the 7.62 guys out their the range they deserve. I may only be shooting 415 at any given point in time. But when I downgrade to my next spring, Im at 380. Its the leniency you get with the new limit. I did a really sucky job at explaining that.

Why do people upgrade their stock CA M4s at 320 to 380? Because it makes a difference in range!!!

Also, I think if we implement this at larger events, we can basically eliminate submachine guns. They are at a huge advantage, with their campact size and midcap compact mags (MP5s... Grrr...) and would probably never be used for actual woodland combat.
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:37 AM
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Loki Loki is offline
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Just because I got bored, I went through the list and complied these statistics about the people that have voted for this.

The people that have voted have been registered on these forums for this long:

Rules are fine the way they are:
Under a year: 7 (53.8%)
Over 1 year: 1 (7.6%)
Over 2 years: 1 (7.6%)
Over 3 years: 3 (23%)
Over 4 years: 1 (7.6%)

Complex: Modified
Under a year: 4 (28.5%)
Over 1 year: 4 (28.5%)
Over 2 years: 2 (14.2%)
Over 3 years: 3 (21.4%)
Over 4 years: 1 (7.1%)

Simple: As posted
Under 1 year: 3 (27.2%)
Over 1 year: 2 (18.1%)
Over 2 years: 3 (27.2%)
Over 4 years: 3 (27.2%)

Simple: Modified
Under a year: 3 (75%)
Over 3 years: 1 (25%)

Complex: As posted
Under a year: 10 (43.4%)
Over 1 year: 4 (17.3%)
Over 2 years: 2 (8.6%)
Over 3 years: 2 (8.6%)
Over 4 years: 5 (21.7%)

80% of the people that voted favored some kind of change
20% have voted against some form of change

26.1% of the people that voted in this poll have played less than a year
73.9% of the people that voted in this poll have played more than 1 year
41.5% of the people that voted in this poll have played more than 2 years
26.2% of the people that voted in this poll have played more than 3 years
15.3% of the people that voted in this poll have played more than 4 years

Of the people that voted against any changes:
53.8% have played less than a year
46.2% have played more than a year

Of the people that voted for a change:
38.4% have played less than a year
61.4% have played more than a year
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