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  #26  
Old 04-17-2007, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic View Post
I have a hard time with the RPK because it has a springfed 75rd magazine, far from a support weapon.
You also run into some problems there. How to offset real world capacity with airsoft when the airsoft weapon's accuracy and range are not even 1/4 of the real world counterpart. The realworld gun can effectively engage target out to 500 yards while airsoft is lucky if it will hit anything at 100 yards.

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Originally Posted by Atomic View Post
In the real world GIs do not have 300 rd mags, and cannot spew out a steady stream of bullets.
In the real world, GIs may not be issued 300 round mags, but some do use drums and extreme high capacity magazines in combat. Some troops are issued drums for their assault rifles. GErman Troops have been seen in field with G36K fitted with 150-200 round drum mags. Likewise, some Navy Seal and Delta units have been photographed in action using C-Mags and other similar drums.

You effectively come up against two extremes based on comparing two weapons that have totally different operating characteristics. You don't have to worry about carbon fouling or excessive full auto melting the barrel rifling or your foregrip melting.

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Originally Posted by Atomic View Post
I think that for a somewhat realistic game, neither should the average M4 owner.
Most players don't want to play the "Average M4 owner" in games. That's why you don't see players who want to peel potatoes during the game or be given latrine duty. Most players want to play the game using whatever they have at their disposal to do so.

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Originally Posted by Atomic View Post
If a guy saves up $1000 for a SAW, he should get some benefit...
He does have a benefit. He bought a gun that looks like a real SAW and that is specifically designed to shoot on full auto. Why should he then be given special consideration just because he can afford an expensive toy?

There are players who spend $1500+ to buy a PTW, does that also mean everyone with an M4 or M16 should be limited to firing three round burst or have to take out there mags after 20-30 shots and reload?

Changing the dynamics of the game just to make someone feel special about spending a grand on an airsoft gun seems, quite frankly, to me, pathetic.

Just some counterpoints.
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2007, 03:30 PM
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I am not getting your argument. Are you against mil-sim events, or military simulation in milsim events? M4s with drum mags are not used in the U.S. military. period.

If you want a somewhat realistic experience, then certain rules have to be followed. If you are advocating for free play games, then I concede.
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic View Post
M4s with drum mags are not used in the U.S. military. period.
OK.











I had some other ones from the mid-1990s of Delta and Seal Operators using them, but it will take longer to find them.
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2007, 06:18 PM
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The last photo is of private contractors. The rest, as far as I can tell are special units, not regular troops. The 82nd ABD carries regular 30 rd mags in their loadouts.

And, let's get back on track. A C-mag does not make the M4 belt fed, or capable of sustained fire. And my argument stands, an M4 is not a support weapon, and I still prefer large mags to be the private realm of real support weapons at milsim events.
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2007, 06:25 PM
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http://betaco.com/photos/military2.jpg

Don't tell me that those guys are regular military there.
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  #31  
Old 04-17-2007, 08:11 PM
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What are you all smoking....?

This is the definition of a SAW

http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_im.../Miter_Saw.jpg
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2007, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheGregory View Post
What are you all smoking....?

This is the definition of a SAW

http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_im.../Miter_Saw.jpg
1. Thats a picture
2. Thats a picture of a saw, not a SAW.


edit: I know it was a joke.. : /
I by no means meant to sound offensive or anything.

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  #33  
Old 04-17-2007, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rctaylor View Post
1. Thats a picture
2. Thats a picture of a saw, not a SAW.
Take a joke.
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  #34  
Old 04-17-2007, 08:51 PM
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But Drum mags are used by members of the US Military and have been used historically by the US military. More importantly, they are in the hands of US Military Special Operations and apparently used by troops in the field as personal items.

Moreover, other world Military Forces issue and use drums on their weapons which would validate their use on just about any of the weapons out there.

Finally, if the event scenario does not specifically dictate two specific forces are engaging, there would be possibility that drums being used on certain weapons would be entirely within the realm of realism.
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  #35  
Old 04-17-2007, 10:26 PM
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Unfortunately, Texx, most airsoft enthusiasts still won't condone a drum mag.

The way I see it, MilSimers prefer simulating what is most common; perhaps a better word would be 'standardized'. C-mags and drums are seen as uncommon in the real military world, and MilSimers want to keep it that way.
I can see that side of the argument; if you start 'letting up' on drum mags, then they would become more common through convenience, playability, and efficiency. You can get a hicap or something similar, lets say 500 rounds, for $20. Or you can get 10x30 round mags for $50. With the hicap, you don't have to reload or lug around 9 other mags. I would assume this is where most airsoft players would say Airsoft closes the gap with Paintball.

I guess the ultimate goal of most event coordinators is to weigh both sides. This is where the common rule of 1 Hicap or as many mid/low caps as you can carry comes into play, as well as ammo carry limits.

In the end, if you don't like the mag rules, then don't attend that coordinators events. Its your choice as to what games, and subsequently what rules you abide by.

Just don't get hung up over a mag debate. Airsoft is a game, and its meant to be played. If everyone is sitting at home talking about mags then who will the rest of us exchange BBs with?
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  #36  
Old 04-18-2007, 10:48 AM
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I understand the whole drum debate all too well. Unfortunately, siting realism as the reason why they shouldn't be used is faulty logic because the guns are not true representations of firearms.

Realistic capacity can be seen as being a ratio of BBs to real rounds. Where as a standard capacity magazine of 60-70 rounds could easily be compared to that used in a 20-round magazine of being a ration of 3:1 because the vast majority of airsoft weapons are not capable of engaging targets at actual rifle ranges.

Support weapons, on average can hold up to 200 rounds of belted ammunition at any given time, while the gunner may carry an additional three or four boxes of 100-200 rounds at a time. Considering the range most real support weapons can be employed to engage targets, you would set the ratio between 3:1 and 5:1, assuming that for every X amount of real rounds, there would be tracers added to the mix to push the ratio to 6:1 (BBs per actual round in RW)

6 times 200 rounds would give the average support gunner a 1200 round magazine. Assuming the magazine is a manually wound drum you could allow him 2000-3000 rounds with the stipulation that him having to wind the drum would simulate changing out belts of ammunition or changing out the barrel. Or that winding the drum would put his weapon out of commission for a simulated time to accomplish replacing barrels and/or adding another belt.

When looking at hicap magazines from a realism aspect, users falling into a 3:1 or 6:1 ratio would end up firing standard magazines up to hi capacity magazines. You can buy 40, 50, 60 - 75 round extended magazines and mini drums for most combat and sporting rifles on the market.

Assuming your player has a 300 round magazine, a 3:1 ratio can put the actual capacity at 100 rounds using a 3:1 ratio or a 50 round capacity using a 6:1 ratio.

Using the ratio system to help offset airsoft gun's natural limitations places real caps closer to 10-15 round magazines, Standards at 15-20 round magazines, and MidCaps closer to actual 30 round magazines.

Finally you have the performance levels of weapons in the field. Millitary rifles perform more similarly using military grade ammunition. They may vary slightly with barrel lengths and the physical conditions of the guns and climates they are used in. With Airsoft, you don't have a uniform performance because not every rifle is upgraded in the same way. You have individual weapons upgraded to individual specification - each rifle is a custom made weapon.

Additionally, because airsoft guns all fire the same 6mm ammunition, you run into a Paradox where various airsoft guns perform roughly in the same manner, despite the fact their real world counterparts fire different ammunitions with different performance characteristics and ranges.

How do you offset this fact for realism? Do you require weapons be given individual classes and upgrade requirements? Can you enforce those classes when airsoft gun selection is based solely on personal preference?

If you are weighing magazine capacity simply for realism, you should also be weighing it with the idea that using a ratio system for magazine capacity can offset the natural limitation airsoft guns have. That should be factored intot he equations used for realism, because it can be explained very scientifically that hicaps on the field can be just as realistic in milsim as midcaps, standards, and locaps - leaving the actual inclusion of hicaps largely up to personal preference of the event organizer.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:47 PM
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I unfortunately see a flawed logic in this entire deal. Yes, Beta C mags are on occasion used by regular infantry troops. It's not common, not for a minute, but it does occur. Round ratios, adding a tracer to the mix doesn't change the ratio, because a 100 or 200 round belt is still a 100 or 200 round belt, whether it has a tracer every 5th round or not. While a automatic rifleman may only carry 600 rounds of ammunition on his person, typically, he has an "assistant automatic rifleman" within his squad who carries more. I don't think there's ever going to be a real, honest, happy medium between the hi-cap/lo-cap debate. In the real world, I can carry, and have provisions to carry thirteen thirty round M4/M16 magazines, excluding the one in the magwell. 420 rounds. 3:1 ratio means I should carry 1,260 6mm pellets in place of those for the airsoft skirmishes. 100 round midcaps just about meet that ratio. Moving to the SAW, since you really aren't going to have an assistant SAW gunner, you're stuck carrying it yourself (I don't know anyone who's going to volunteer to carry ammo). It becomes a compromise. If with my assistant gunner, I could carry 1400 rounds of ammo, that same 3:1 ratio means I need to carry 4200 6mm pellets.
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  #38  
Old 04-18-2007, 01:10 PM
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Keep in mind that while a real operator might use a C-mag, he still isn't going to use his weapon in a support role, as the weapon wouldn't be able to physically tolerate such use.

So while it might not be "unrealistic" for an M4 variant to have a C-mag, it would still be unrealistic for the user to use his AEG as a support weapon. So if you were to allow c-mags, you would have to have strick fire control rules in place, and such rules would be nearly impossible to enforce. It would be totally up to the user to police himself. In small games where you know everyone, that might work, but in large milsim events, it isn't really practical.
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Old 04-18-2007, 02:44 PM
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:18 PM
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This is a good thread to have around, though. Because it brings up good points for both sides.

Personally, I hate hicaps and for the most part drum mags. But I occasionally use them to play the support role when there aren't any other guns available.

I currently have a loadout of mostly Midcaps and love them to death.

But I feel hicaps do have a legitimate place in Milsim. And there are several instances on how they can actually fit into a Milsim game.

Ultimately, it is the coordinator who decides what is allowed in his game.

My argument is largely that there is legitimate date to support their allowance in MilSim for a coordinator to consider before making that decision.

Thank you for the counter-points, Atomic, and hope I didn't frustrate you too much.

I don't think hicaps will make airsoft turn into paintball. What will "make airsoft turn into paintball" is elitist attitudes thatyou will only be accepted if you have "X gear" or "X loadout" or believe "X opinion is the only path to True Milsim's creamy nougat." If you want to see what kills airsoft for a sport, look at the attitudes of the players, not the guns or gear they are using.
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  #41  
Old 04-18-2007, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
I don't think hicaps will make airsoft turn into paintball. What will "make airsoft turn into paintball" is elitist attitudes thatyou will only be accepted if you have "X gear" or "X loadout" or believe "X opinion is the only path to True Milsim's creamy nougat." If you want to see what kills airsoft for a sport, look at the attitudes of the players, not the guns or gear they are using.
Here here! You must have missed my post where I was telling you about the glyph game we play. I am not a serious milsimer. In fact, I only started playing organized events last year because I was put off by some of the discussions on AO.

However, I think that if an organizer wants to set restrictions on what makes a support weapon and what doesn't, which was the point of this thread (I think), then you have to set some rules. I already stated my opinions on what makes a support weapon. Ciao!
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:31 AM
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DOWN WITH OPPRESSION!

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Old 04-19-2007, 10:43 AM
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The only thing that concerns me is an attitude I see wafting around from time to time that you're not worthy of filling a Support Gunner role unless you've dropped $800+ on a gun.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:46 PM
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With the release of Cyma's M249 and M60, you need not spend lots of money to break into SAW-gunning. If they are priced comparable to their other AEGs, I would buy one in a heartbeat.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:01 PM
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I agree - I don't care if people spend $2000 on a gold mechbox'd M60 or $100 on a hoopty blaster, as long as it *looks* like a RS saw. I just like hosts who strive for some semblance of adherance to RS to mainain the verisimilitude, I just don't want to have to make beleive I'm not seeing some silliness like drum-mag'd MP5s at "milsim" events is all I'm moaning about. You let that go then next come bicycles... oops did I say that?
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:49 PM
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thats 3rd pic in the larger set of them....

that guy is old.......looks to be past mandatory retirement age.....
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Old 04-20-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
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You let that go then next come bicycles... oops did I say that?
Sorry to stray off topic, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...y#21st_century
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
There are some reports of the use of mountain bicycles by U.S. Special Forces as a scouting vehicle in the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan and in subsequent battles against the Taliban.
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:04 PM
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Yeah, and you'll see Segways on Airforce, Army, Navy, and Marine TOEs. But you won't see them all over Fallujah. They sure aren't in the OOB, and nor are bicycles. Or rubber chickens. Putting a drum mag on an smg or riding a schwin into battle, Cheesy is Cheesy. Period. End of sentence. End of paragraph.

You can't cite (thats with a c) an example of the military using something as a litmus test to pass it into a milsim airsoft event because the military, being the innovative, problem solving, adaptive wunderkin they are, have used probably everything to do anything. Toothpaste to fix airplanes. Vodka to power an APC. Umbrellas for concealment. You name it. Doesnt mean there are huffy riding, vodka carrying, toothpaste packing umbrella troops kitted out in the main lineup such that we need to have inflicted on us in a general simulation.

EDIT ...ok I'm off that, back to our regularly scheduled thread topic.
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Old 04-20-2007, 02:52 PM
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Despite the fact there are drum mags for SMGs...
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Old 04-20-2007, 03:12 PM
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...and entire infantry division compositioned on the SMG support gunner... erm, no.

To be fair, yeah, I supposed it matters *what* you're simulating in an event, is it force on force or is it special unit on special unit, that'd determine if a loadout is fantasy-football or not. In the latter, yes alot is "technically possible", in the former, no - nobody is fielding SMG support gunners as line infantry.

If we're doing small unit mout - yeah lets bring our smgs with all the doodads and knickknacks railed on, go to town. Good enough to MI:3 Tom Cruise good enough for me. But field army vs army would be different, you agree?
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