Airsoft Ohio Forums  
  #1  
Old 11-09-2013, 10:45 PM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
Polarstar help

Hello everyone. This winter I plan on building a polarstar setup. I will be running a blue nozzle two piece hop up and a maple leaf hop up bucking. I was wondering where i could get a air rig for a decent price and how far this could possibly shoot. My previous gun/donor gun is a jg m4 and i was getting 230 ft easily stock at 380 fps. I was wondering if i had the polarstar would be able to shoot up to 300+ at about 400 flat. Thanks for reading this and hope you all can help me.
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-10-2013, 01:00 AM
Rellim's Avatar
Rellim Rellim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Amherst Ohio
Posts: 133
Blog Entries: 2
Rellim is a Recruit Private
iTrader: (3)
Are you sure you are reaching 230 ft at 380 fps? That seems to be an incredible range for that setup. I know that when I had a DMR setup running about 470 fps, I was reaching out to about 250 ft (accurately) and that was at peak performance.
I think that having an airsoft gun that shoots 100 yards(300ft) is very rare, and it definitely won't be accurate. I think that you should focus more on building a setup that is accurate and reliable within 200 ft. Especially if you are only looking to run it at about 400 fps.

As far as an air rig goes or anything P* related, I know that Amped Airsoft is a fantastic place to shop. I also know that there are a lot of companies out there that carry P* stuff like Airsoftgi for example.
__________________
"Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way" - George Patton
Shield
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-10-2013, 09:33 AM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
the farthest maximum i hit was around 240ft with the hop up turned high and sights set out for super long engagement distance haha. I know alot of people running pstars that are hitting 450+ and they are running the red nozzle but since i am under 18 i have to be 400 or under and thanks for your help on the rig stuff evike doesn't do much justice there
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-10-2013, 02:34 PM
RotaryProphet RotaryProphet is offline
Airsoft Prophet
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 160
RotaryProphet is a Private
iTrader: (0)
My old JG was running about 390fps, and with a tight-bore and a prommy hop-up unit, was hitting 250 fairly easily.

The thing to remember here is that range is about your hop up, not your barrel length or fps. I had an M4 set up at one point with a prowin hop unit on a prommy 141mm (Yes, 141mm... it was an integrally suppressed setup.) inner barrel that would shoot 225 feet at 350fps. It took a while for the rounds to get there, but the hop up made sure they made it.

My current polarstar setup can reach out to 300 feet consistently, but it's all about the hop-up and supporting mods. The polarstar isn't a magical engine, it's no better than a well setup gearbox as far as accuracy is concerned.

My build:
440mm Prometheus 6.03 with R-Hop installed
HunterSeeker5 carbon fiber long-range outer barrel
Prometheus neo hop-up unit
16.25" Dragon Fire floating rail system (The LRB doesn't have a gas block and won't take non-floating rails)
Polarstar 2nd revision version 2
Gold low flow poppet valve
Red nozzle

At 80psi regulator pressure, this shoots 395-398fps. At 110, it will hit 450fps, if you're at a field that allows it.

Obviously, there is a ton of money invested in this gun, and it's -barely- reaching 300 accurately with .40g bbs.

tl;dr: If you want range, invest in your hop-up.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-10-2013, 03:15 PM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
Okay sounds good. I guess i'll have to invest in a new body so i can get a one piece hop up as well. say i have a prowin and a red nozzle set up at 80 psi how far do you think i could get with it. I'm blizzards dmr guy and of course range is key for me.
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-10-2013, 10:40 PM
Failcat's Avatar
Failcat Failcat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 30
Failcat is a Private
iTrader: (0)
I agree with pretty much everything that Rotary said.

Additionally, BB weight is EXTREMELY important, especially with PolarStar setups. Due to the different airflow characteristics found with the PolarStars, heavy BBs are hugely beneficial. For example, in an AEG, .25g or .30g are considered fairly heavy, and usually offer the best performance. Due to how much air that the Fusion Engine pushes, I'd recommend a .30g at a bare minimum. Try and snag some nice .40g or .43g if you can.

Be careful with BB weight when it comes to gas guns though (PolarStars or GBBRs for that matter). The heavier you go without adjustment, the more energy is produced. For example, if you have a gas rifle of some sort shooting 400 fps with a .20g pellet (roughly 1.5 joules), and you are to drop a .40g in there without compensating your PSI, your joules may double. Which is dangorous. AEGs do not experience this, which is why most people don't even think about it when they chrono. Just something to look out for
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-11-2013, 06:56 AM
Blade's Avatar
Blade Blade is offline
Baron VonYolo
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Monroe, OH
Posts: 5,946
Blade is a CorporalBlade is a CorporalBlade is a Corporal
Send a message via AIM to Blade Send a message via Skype™ to Blade
iTrader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotaryProphet View Post
At 80psi regulator pressure, this shoots 395-398fps. At 110, it will hit 450fps, if you're at a field that allows it.

Obviously, there is a ton of money invested in this gun, and it's -barely- reaching 300 accurately with .40g bbs.
My apology for jumping into your thread rotary but I have a question; When you say that are reaching 300ft with 0.40g bbs, is it with a 110psi and 450fps ??
__________________
No balls, no glory.



Awesome videos;
http://www.youtube.com/teamstrikersairsoft
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:19 AM
RotaryProphet RotaryProphet is offline
Airsoft Prophet
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 160
RotaryProphet is a Private
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
My apology for jumping into your thread rotary but I have a question; When you say that are reaching 300ft with 0.40g bbs, is it with a 110psi and 450fps ??
With 110psi running ~450fps (Measured with .20g bbs, mind) on the fields that allow it, yes, a 0.40g bb will be fairly accurate from my setup out to ~300 feet (At the mercy of wind, leaves, and acts of God) I used to run 500fps before I switched to the low-flow poppet valve, but performance didn't really suffer much after the drop. With the higher FPS, the BB had more energy at 300 feet, obviously, and it was possible to hold up in the scope and sort of lob the bbs in further than that... but not with any accuracy. At 450fps, the bb is totally -out- of energy at 300 feet. It almost falls directly out of the air.

Out of the Box and Devil's Playground's 400fps limit prompted my change to the low flow valve. Dropping to 400fps (Again with a .20g) at 80psi with a .30g bb (My standard for full auto setups... FA with a .40 seems.. cruel, at best) will yield accurate shots out to ~275 feet. It just takes a bit longer to get there. With a short burst, making kills at 300 feet is no problem; just a matter of throwing enough bbs in to make up for the unpredictability of the lighter rounds with lower energy at range.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-11-2013, 01:17 PM
RotaryProphet RotaryProphet is offline
Airsoft Prophet
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 160
RotaryProphet is a Private
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarg. Michael View Post
Okay sounds good. I guess i'll have to invest in a new body so i can get a one piece hop up as well. say i have a prowin and a red nozzle set up at 80 psi how far do you think i could get with it. I'm blizzards dmr guy and of course range is key for me.
You've probably seen me out at Fallen Warriors earlier this year; I'm Prophet from Atlas. I feel like you guys were out there quite a bit, also. The longest kill I've made was from the front of the ammo depot to the base of the tower in lower village last fall. I was as surprised as anybody.

To answer your question: A stock gun + Polarstar + Prowin unit (And presumably a good bucking) and a reasonably heavy bb (At least .30) running ~400fps w/ .20g bbs (Let's not worry about how get there as far as nozzles and such. Until you're scraping the bottom of the performance barrel, it doesn't matter) should net you ~225-240 feet fairly accurately. This makes some basic assumptions, such as that you've shimmed and locked down your hop-unit and barrel.

A solid, predictable DMR is rare, and honestly, a pain in the ***. I've put well over $2500 into my gun to get it to perform well, and that doesn't count my own time. The problem is, the fields/hosts I play with most often no longer allow a "DMR" class, which makes things even harder. You're going to have to perfect everything in your build to get it to perform at range.
The Polarstar engine is a great piece of hardware, but it is absolutely -not- a magic part that will suddenly make your gun shoot any further or any more accurately. That's up to the front half of the gun.

So, if you're looking for the 300 foot shot, what do you need? Basically a perfect system. I'm bored at work today, so I'll take a bit of time to talk about what parts play what role to get us there.

The Polarstar engine is a good start. When I first picked mine up last year, ultra-high speed setups were the reason most people went with them, but I saw potential in the ability to be incredibly consistent from shot to shot, and do put out high power levels extremely reliably. This is the part we concern ourselves with in building a DMR -- We can skip all of the gear-box knowledge (Shimming, sealing, batteries, springs, trigger lag), as we have (Effectively) a "perfect" gearbox, with a fantastic internal air seal, low noise, and amazing trigger response. In reality, there are only a few variables we need to concern ourselves with before moving on: Air pressure, nozzle size, poppet valve, and fcu settings.

Starting with FCU settings: For a DMR, set your Poppet dwell time (DP) to ~20 for an M4 (363mm) barrel, or 24 for a mid-length (440mm). For a long barrel such as a 509mm M16 length, I would bring this up to 28 or so. This ensures the valve is open the entire time a bb is in the barrel. It uses somewhat more air per shot, but ensures that there is a cushion of consistently pressurized air behind the bb until it leaves the barrel. Consistency, as you may notice, is -everything- for a DMR. The longer your barrel is, the lower you'll be able to bring your air pressure, which will, to a certain extent, help counter-act the extra air spent.

The nozzle dwell time (DN) will have to be tuned to your magazines, but 20 is a good starting point. For a DMR that will mostly live on semi-auto, you can err on the side of caution and set this high to ensure a positive feed every time.

The nozzle return time (DR) controls how long it takes the nozzle to return forward. Default is ~22, I set this up to 26 or 28 on a DMR to give the BB extra time to settle into the hop-up, and to ensure the nozzle has finished seating against the bucking lips. Each of these helps ensure consistent performance shot to shot.

If you're playing on a field that allows DMR classes with full auto disabled, set FA to 01, which will basically turn your full auto into an extra semi-auto position. Otherwise, you can set it to a 3 or 5 round burst, or leave it in full auto. This is entirely your preference and play style.

Closed-Bolt mode is a neat feature of the polarstar that's very useful for the DMR class. Basically, it just tells it to cycle the bolt -after- firing a shot instead of before-hand. This takes the trigger response up from "astoundingly good" to "Perfect". Mechanically, it also means that your bb and nozzle have effectively all the time in the world to settle into the hop-up. Even if your finger can kick out 12 rounds per second in semi-auto mode and with our very conservative feed and nozzle delay times, this brings the settle time up from ~1ms to almost 20ms. This helps arrest any odd momentum the bb may have from the feeding nozzle that would affect your shots.

Now that the settings are... well, set, I'll explain the reasoning behind using a low-flow poppet valve coupled with a large nozzle and medium pressure versus just using a smaller nozzle or lower pressure to control FPS. Really, it comes down to two things: The operating range of the Polarstar and a bit of fluid dynamics, specifically air turbulence. The Polarstar fusion engine is a pneumatic device, and if the air pressure isn't high enough, the nozzle won't retract consistently, leading to feed issues. Some people solve this by cranking the nozzle dwell time way up, but this can cause over-heating in the solenoids which control the nozzle (This is also known to happen in SAW platforms which commonly use an 11.1 to power the engine and the box magazine, and require a high nozzle dwell to ensure feeding).

The goal of all of this is to get the air pressure down as low as possible using a big nozzle to ensure a smooth, un-turbulent flow of air from the nozzle against the BB. Imagine a garden hose with the knob turned up, but your thumb over the outlet -- This is the concept of limiting the flow with the nozzle, right at the end. If you turn down the knob to get the desired flow and remove your thumb, however, the flow is nice and smooth. The problem is that the low pressure is below Polarstar's recommended operating range, and won't function consistently. The solution is to use the low-flow poppet valve coupled with the big nozzle. This limits the flow slightly further back in the system, while keeping air pressure up within the normal operating range. In our hose metaphor, this is akin to leaving the valve turned up and your thumb off of the hose, but kinking it a foot or so back from the end to control the flow rate. Nice and smooth, and everything works the way you want it to. Like I mentioned before, however, this is unlikely to show you any results until your hop-up and barrel are absolutely set.

Once the engine itself is set, we can move back into traditional tuning territory. There is a ton of information about this (And often it conflicts with itself) out there, so you may need to experiment a bit to find out what works best for you. The ultimate goal is to have every BB go exactly where the one before it went -- It's up to you, the designated marksman to position the rifle in such a way as that that course intercepts the enemy.

To this end, we need to eliminate all movement from your barrel and hop-up unit. Amped airsoft sells a shim kit (They call it a barrel lock-down kit) which I've had good luck with, which has some plastic pieces and rubber o-rings. Experiment to see what works best. When everything is put together, the hop-up unit should be solidly placed against the front of the engine, and the other end should be solidly placed against the front of your upper receiver. The receivers should go together without any undue force -- If you have to push very hard, the hop up is probably too far rearward. If you reach in from the mag well after it's assembled, you shouldn't be able to push or twist the hop-up unit in any direction.

The other side of the barrel will require some attention, also. You can stick the end of a pen or such into the end of the outer barrel and try pushing the inner barrel in each direction. Some people recommend using Teflon tape around the inner barrel before inserting it into the outer, and if you have movement in all directions, that's a thing to try. The amped kit I mentioned earlier has a shim you can insert between the inner and outer barrels which will account for any irregularity in the outer barrel surface. Once everything is locked down, you should be quite sure your barrel unit is not moving -at-all- between shots.

For the inner barrel itself, I use a Prometheus 6.03 tight-bore. Some Polarstar operators swear by the Orga 6.23mm barrels and have very good luck with them. Personally I tried one and saw a performance decrease. Your mileage may vary. In any case, use the highest quality barrel you can get. Irregularities or bends in the barrel will make everything else I've written worthless, and you'll never get good results.

For the hop-up unit, I use a Prometheus NEO chamber. In other builds, I've used the Prowin hop-up, and I like it's design better, but I got my Prometheus before the Prowin was available for the M4, and I'm too lazy to switch it, for fear of having to re-adjust everything. Regardless of which one you choose, make sure the hop-up arm is shimmed and doesn't move side-to-side. This will cause inconsistency in hop and direction between shots. I used a thin gearbox shim on the hop-arm shaft to eliminate this movement. While you're looking in there, make sure everything fits tightly together enough that the adjustment knob won't turn during normal operation. The Prowin unit has a rubber o-ring that fits against the inside of the adjustment know to arrest this movement, while the Prometheus design relies on a friction fit of the adjustment wheel which also makes it quite difficult to fine-tune.

Lastly, but probably most importantly, the hop-up bucking/contact surface itself. I'm going to make just one suggestion for a DMR: Go with an R-Hop, or even better, an ER-Hop. Clandestine Airsoft used to sell Prometheus barrels with the R-Hop pre-installed by Hunterseeker5 (The guy who developed the R-hop) for ~$100-$120 depending on length. Unfortunately, it appears they are now selling cheaper Core barrels with the R-Hop patch installed. Judging from the descriptions, it sounds like they come with some machining oil and metal chips still in the barrel, and they'd have to be cleaned with a solvent before use. I have no experience with the Core barrels, perhaps someone else can chime in and let me know if they're a good performer or not.

If you (like most) lack the resources to install the ER-Hop yourself (Which involves machining the hop-up window longer, modifying the hop-up unit itself, and fabricating a longer hop-up arm), there are people out there willing to perform the service for a reasonable price... less than $200 for everything if I recall correctly.

If you're willing to go crazy on it, there is more to be done beyond this point, but it's absolutely a level of diminishing returns. Expect to double your investment in time or money for every 20 or so extra feet of reliable range. Barrel lapping/polishing, long-range barrels, a-spherical rounds, and rifled barrels are all being experimented with by various pioneers, and as such there is sort of a lack of information. Before you start in on any of this, you need to have a solid understanding of what is happening inside your gun so that you can have an idea how mechanical changes would effect the round.

Hopefully this is informative, and gives you an idea of the investment in time and cash. Feel free to ask questions -- I had to find a lot of this out for myself, and if I can help someone else out I'm more than happy to.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-11-2013, 08:40 PM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
Thanks man that took two long country songs to read but totally worth it
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:02 AM
Semper Paratus Semper Paratus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ashtabula Ohio
Posts: 6
Semper Paratus is a Private
iTrader: (0)
Well written. Possible sticky? If your looking for an R hop or even an ER hop I can hook you up.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:02 PM
apeclipse apeclipse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lebanon ohio
Posts: 5
apeclipse is a Private
iTrader: (3)
321 Airsoft sales air Riggs ,tanks,and nozzles
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:05 PM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
Okay guys I've taken into consideration what you all have said and I've changed around the set up quite a bit. I play on many different fields with different fps limits and all and as far as building the base goes i was wondering something along the lines of a red nozzle with the new solenoid that you can adjust the psi from 40-180 with and like a 550mm inner barrel a prowin hop up and a r hop mod. It seems to be very flexible as far as adjusting the psi wise to get low fps and high fps and of course thats what I'm looking for.
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:41 PM
Rex Rex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 27
Rex is a Private
iTrader: (4)
Thats pretty much my exact setup. I love the red nozzle since its so flexible with fps'.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:15 AM
tombo131's Avatar
tombo131 tombo131 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 185
tombo131 is a Private
Send a message via AIM to tombo131
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarg. Michael View Post
Okay guys I've taken into consideration what you all have said and I've changed around the set up quite a bit. I play on many different fields with different fps limits and all and as far as building the base goes i was wondering something along the lines of a red nozzle with the new solenoid that you can adjust the psi from 40-180 with and like a 550mm inner barrel a prowin hop up and a r hop mod. It seems to be very flexible as far as adjusting the psi wise to get low fps and high fps and of course thats what I'm looking for.
Be aware, with that long of a inner barrel, you may have a hard time getting your energy output low enough if you're playing at field with lower energy limits. I was running a 550mm 6.03 barrel with red nozzle, and I had to reduce my psi to 50 in order to run at 1.48 joules (400 w/ .20, 327 w/ .30).

In other words, if you ever need to run at 1.13 joules (350 w/ .20, 286 w/ .30) your output pressure would probably be so low that you'll run into issues with your gun cycling properly. If you are using that long of a barrel, you may be better served by also ordering a silver or black nozzle should you ever need to run 350 fps or lower.

This is all of course if you're using the standard poppet. If you do go with a low-flow poppet, then the red nozzle should still lend you the energy output flexibility you want while also allowing you to keep your PSI in range that allows your engine to work properly.
__________________
It's time to kick *** and chew bubble gum... and I'm all outa' gum.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:29 PM
sarg. Michael's Avatar
sarg. Michael sarg. Michael is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: vandalia ohio
Posts: 43
sarg. Michael is a Private
iTrader: (1)
I've got a nice little aeg scar-l thats good for lower than 350fps games. I've got everything as far as that planned out well
__________________
R.I.P. Chris Kyle Febuary 2, 2013. May his soul rest in peace and let our prayers be with his family.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Polarstar Discussion evanwormer General Discussion 117 10-20-2013 06:00 PM
Shorty USA Reviews the PolarStar PR-15 EPAR ShortyUSA_Rambo Other Retailers 76 08-15-2013 04:37 PM
PolarStar Fusion Engine V3 - The Countdown Begins ShortyUSA_Rambo Other Retailers 0 12-12-2012 10:38 AM
WTB/WTT: I want a polarstar. Winter Gas-Powered Weaponry 1 10-16-2012 03:51 PM
PolarStar PR-15's Inbound! First Images and Pre-Order Now at Shorty USA! ShortyUSA_Rambo Other Retailers 15 08-12-2011 07:04 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.


Airsoft Guns, Tactical Gear, Military Gear, Ohio Airsoft Retailer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2005 - 2009 Airsoft Ohio