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Old 09-26-2013, 02:18 PM
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Camo Probs

Gentlemen and Lady folk,

We are living in an era of Airsoft that has proven to be both promising and challenging. We have seen a flood of new players from across the state(and out of state) who desire to continue the milsim culture that has made Ohio great. Along with the new players, new technologies have arisen that have changed Airsoft for good.
I would specifically like to focus on the area of dress. I posted a blog a while back focusing on some of the problems I see with the BDU colors. Nowadays there are so many different camo patterns. Its really incredible how much variety there is for the Airsofter. The problem is, they are growing closer together. What do I mean by that? Well, the modern patterns that are coming out are made to bridge the gap between green and tan. Green patterns are growing in towards and tan is growing in towards green. Multi-cam, A-TACs, and LBX honor camo are examples of patterns that dwell in the "hazy middle". These types of patterns are very practical for the real world, but prove to be very challenging for the Airsoft world. They are great, don't get me wrong. They are just challenging.
For identification purposes, certain camo patterns make it very hard to distinguish between friend or foe. I have seen numerous players shot by friendlies because they were not able to be identified. It's definitely a growing problem...

Now, before you rip into me about target identification and communication, I want you to hear me out.
1. Identifying targets can only go so far in Airsoft. Unlike the real world, in Airsoft we aren't given intel on specific targets. Players are given objectives and told of the basic whereabouts of the enemy, and nothing else. On top of that many players "attempt" the lone wolf tactic and therefore are usually incommunicado and distant. Often squads get deep into enemy territory and so distinguishing between green or tan is crucial(especially when players are "creeping" through the woods and locate and unidentified target) and extremely difficult! .
2. Communication never seems to be 100% successful in Airsoft, so trying to contact the CO to determine if the guys in front of you are friend or foe is almost impossible at times(especially because many players do not even have a radio)


So, What do we do to fix the issue of distinguishing between green and tan? I have 2 ideas.

1. Call and Response.
This has been utilized before. I think it should be used every single event. Screaming "are you tan?" just doesn't cut it.

2. Armbands!
Yes, I said it. I believe its time for the Airsoft community to embrace the concept of armbands.
These armbands would be a set color for each team. Example: Tan team would have blue arm bands and Green team would have yellow armbands. As you can see, these armbands would not replace the Green vs. Tan set-up that we have. It would just enhance it. It would add one more way for teams to be able to identify friend or foe.
I understand that it wouldn't fix the problem completely, I just believe it would HELP.

Here is an example of a cheap armband
http://www.accolades.com/item_inform...3-a5777cd3112d

Alright....
Thoughts?
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:51 PM
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You blogged about this a year ago. This has been discussed in depth many, many times. The only solutions are for people to be smarter players. and for there to only be two uniforms on the field for any game.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:00 PM
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red vs blue arm bands...

that or a restructure of the camo list to be based more on pattern types or something

maybe digital s and solids vs old school and multicams?

that or arm bands.

really like the armbands idea then i can wear stuff like this

or you could always pick from this list of 460 camos http://www.hyperstealth.com/deceptex/
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:07 PM
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This has been blogged and argued about many, many times.

Regardless of what happens, this is a hobby, and it is here for the individual. If I want to wear something for an event, I will wear it. Why would I listen to what I am told if I want to have some super 1337 uber loadout in ATACS or Multicam(which that, or some idea of it...is becoming the official camouflage for many forces throughout the world) In the end, this is a hobby for many, and the younger era seems to make it a way of life.

Problems lie within the event organizers, then the problem becomes proper ID. Fix them, and the problems will become non-existent.
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flenner View Post
Why would I listen to what I am told if I want to have some super 1337 uber loadout in ATACS or Multicam
Of course those who oppose this only do so because a $5 armband or a piece of colored duct tape will ruin their $1500 0P3r470r loadout

+1 Rellim. You know Im with you on this

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Old 09-26-2013, 03:28 PM
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And Gentlemen, I am not stupid! Obviously, I posted a blog on this a year ago, and obviously, we still have a problem...
I brought this up because there have been some unique patterns that have gained popularity since we last talked. Gentlemen, these patterns have proven to be difficult. I suggest that a discussion is needed and healthy.

Also..... I'm pretty sure we came to NO conclusions.

(I'm also pretty sure that a forum post and a blog are two very different things. Last time I checked, a blog is a rambling center for ramblers; I want to discuss this straight forward)
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnagley View Post


You blogged about this a year ago. This has been discussed in depth many, many times. The only solutions are for people to be smarter players. and for there to only be two uniforms on the field for any game.
How is having only two types of uniforms very practical for events? I understand that large scale Milsim events(with a hefty price tag) do this, but do we really want that for all of our smaller Ohio-based events?

Oh, and define how one is a "smarter player"?

thanks
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:37 PM
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http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=49436
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:47 PM
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Oh, and define how one is a "smarter player"?
Knowing where your teammates are at all times eliminates a large portion of friendly fire incidents. Identifying the body language and location of the target is a bigger red flag when I am trying to decide who is friendly. Deciding before your scenario to have a call and response between your teammates does wonders as well.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:00 PM
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well sense this is touch all i can say just play smarter.. if you cant tell then dont shoot. simple.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Knowing where your teammates are at all times eliminates a large portion of friendly fire incidents. Identifying the body language and location of the target is a bigger red flag when I am trying to decide who is friendly. Deciding before your scenario to have a call and response between your teammates does wonders as well.
I completely agree, Sky. I just hear story after story of people getting friendly-fired. I personally don't have a problem, I was just brainstorming for the greater good. Many times when squads are flanking or off on their own, they have no clue where the enemy is, therefore it is hard to tell body language (especially if you are moving up at their rear). Its times like these that bdu color is all we have to decipher friend or foe....and now its almost impossible to even do that.
That's my basis. Just brainstorming
Yes, call and responses are crucial.
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:49 PM
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Don't pull the trigger unless you know 100% what you're firing at. Or fire anyways, its Airsoft, no big deal. Nothing has changed. Camo isn't the issue whatsoever, it's the player.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:14 PM
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Sky posted something today actually about this issue in another thread. In the post he mentioned that camo is designed to deceive the opfor.

So guys, use your brains. Get a radio, find out where your team is at, and make the decision to engage or move on. I'm gunna go ahead and guess that military forces come into this issue more often than we do. Show some leadership and make the call. Figure out some sort of call you can say to them. Tons of ways to IFF.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONMAN View Post
Of course those who oppose this only do so because a $5 armband or a piece of colored duct tape will ruin their $1500 0P3r470r loadout

+1 Rellim. You know Im with you on this
Just trying to play the Devil's Advocate!

I never said I wouldn't do it, but I guess we can all jump onto the bandwagon here. Seems as though we just have an issue with too many players in games that don't have proper equipment, or proper communication skills. We all know that I could personally give no cares about gear or gear cost, but there are players out there who will complain.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:43 PM
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This is a problem with a simple solution for everyone.

Shoot people you can not identify.

Let me emphasize this for greater dramatic effect...


SHOOT PEOPLE YOU CAN NOT IDENTIFY!

The problem of identifying friendly forces is a very real issue in combat. Forces routinely misidentified have suffered immensely at the hands of their own allies. Great care is taken by forces to educate, align themselves, and to maintain lines of communication to prevent such tragedies.

Within the realm of airsoft, player identification should be no less of a factor and attempts to remove this element by Event coordinators is often thwarted by players who insist upon being "unique" as opposed to uniformity.

My point is to leave it alone. Friendly fire due to mis-identification in airsoft highlights several problems:
(1) Players utilizing camo patterns that are not easily identified;
(2) Lack of communication within the force - this can be everybody's fault;
(3)Failure of team cohesion - when a group chooses to be "unique" over uniformity simply for its own gain;
and lastly
(4) Polarstar users and possibly Miyagi is obviously to blame for all of this... Players take personal responsibility for these incidents as opposed to having Event Organizers try to dictate everything.

Given enough friendly fire issues, intelligent players would come to understand the need to wear something they can be "recognizable" in or maintain proper levels of communication. Those who fail to do so, simply thank them for providing you with additional trigger time. So, its really a win-win situation for everybody.

People who want that edge of having a pattern that blends in or that may be somewhat surreptitious for the average pair of eyes, are only dooming themselves to the unforgiving icy cold hands of plastic death... It really goes back to the old addage that one ultimately defeats himself.

And the event organizer can tell all who complain "Fog of War is a real b*tch, ain't it?" Friendly fire is Milsim, so nut up or shut up.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:59 PM
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Concerning armbands: I just don't like the idea of moving closer to paintball, among other things.

While I will agree that is makes identification easier, having arm bands that is, it also reduces the effectiveness of your camo. For example, once, long ago I was at Springfield, way back when there was just the one town and it was much smaller than it is now. I was escorting someone (forgot who, sorry) through the field, him being a downed pilot or something of that sort in this scenario. He was wearing one of of these: http://www.sovietarmystuff.com/Produ...a_Berezka.html . I knew he was right behind me, as we were talking and such, but when I turned around I could not, for the life of me, see him, until he turned his head to ask me something. If he'd been wearing an armband, I would've seen him. Now of course this is an extreme example, but it's an example none the less. Having to wear an armband while playing the part of recon or a sneaky third party would put a damper on things. This also ties into another reason I'm not for armbands.

Using them will basically, effectively, eliminate third parties from scenarios. I can't say which event it was for sure, as I don't remember, but at one of Blade's event's I was assigned to a third "guerrilla" team that had free reigns to do just about anything we wanted, from taking favors/bribes to fight for a team (mine was beef jerky, lol), to switching sides just to cause some havoc. Now if we'd had to wear arm bands, most of what we ended up doing wouldn't have worked. Now you might argue that we could switch armbands, however, how then would we have remained "chaotic" neutral (as I called it), if we were shot at for wearing this or that color armband when all we wanted was to offer intel or help?

Anyway, just some examples from my personal experience that would have been kaput if arm bands were in use. Also, for me at least, it's not about it "ruining" my gear, as most of mine is old surplus, most VN, gear (like to travel light). It's more so for the reasons above, and as I said, I just don't want to see airsoft make any kind of move to be anything more like paintball. I must agree with what's been said about playing smarter, because personally, I've only come under friendly fire once that I can remember, and that was when I was still new to airsoft (2003-4ish).
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texx View Post
This is a problem with a simple solution for everyone.

Shoot people you can not identify.

Let me emphasize this for greater dramatic effect...


SHOOT PEOPLE YOU CAN NOT IDENTIFY!

The problem of identifying friendly forces is a very real issue in combat. Forces routinely misidentified have suffered immensely at the hands of their own allies. Great care is taken by forces to educate, align themselves, and to maintain lines of communication to prevent such tragedies.

Within the realm of airsoft, player identification should be no less of a factor and attempts to remove this element by Event coordinators is often thwarted by players who insist upon being "unique" as opposed to uniformity.

My point is to leave it alone. Friendly fire due to mis-identification in airsoft highlights several problems:
(1) Players utilizing camo patterns that are not easily identified;
(2) Lack of communication within the force - this can be everybody's fault;
(3)Failure of team cohesion - when a group chooses to be "unique" over uniformity simply for its own gain;
and lastly
(4) Polarstar users and possibly Miyagi is obviously to blame for all of this... Players take personal responsibility for these incidents as opposed to having Event Organizers try to dictate everything.

Given enough friendly fire issues, intelligent players would come to understand the need to wear something they can be "recognizable" in or maintain proper levels of communication. Those who fail to do so, simply thank them for providing you with additional trigger time. So, its really a win-win situation for everybody.

People who want that edge of having a pattern that blends in or that may be somewhat surreptitious for the average pair of eyes, are only dooming themselves to the unforgiving icy cold hands of plastic death... It really goes back to the old addage that one ultimately defeats himself.

And the event organizer can tell all who complain "Fog of War is a real b*tch, ain't it?" Friendly fire is Milsim, so nut up or shut up.
I definitely appreciate this! If people would just "nut up" then there wouldn't be any issue. I guess if armbands aren't an option, then people need to accept the fact that they could very likely get friendly fired. And if it happens, who cares?! We're all "grown ups." I was just addressing an issue that I know pisses off a lot of people. People get pissed when they get friendly fired....plain and simple
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:48 AM
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Open Plays Armbands help identify when not a lot of new players have squared away load outs. It's extremely effective.

MilSim EOs decide which camo on which team, read the event info and everything else that comes with it, learn which camo on which team, kit up and be prepared for the event.

Am I the only one who has never had this big of an issue with IFF?


WHY IS IT SO HARD?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:16 AM
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MILSIM events should require all players to wear reflective belts. Since that's what goes on in the military, Air Force especially. Don't have your reflective belt with you then risk being pulled a 341 by a NCO.

There's "MILSIM" for ya....
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:20 AM
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The sad part is Ironman is right. Had an incident when I was in, I was an opfor and the bluefor were practicing react to contact. One platoon came through with their pt belts around their rucks, I kid you not. Like fish in a barrel.

What about killing the squad thag fired first in a Friendly Fire incident? IE, you didn't properly ID your target, you (or whole squad) go back to respawn. I bet people would learn to ID real quick.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellim View Post
2. Armbands!
Yes, I said it. I believe its time for the Airsoft community to embrace the concept of armbands.
These armbands would be a set color for each team. Example: Tan team would have blue arm bands and Green team would have yellow armbands. As you can see, these armbands would not replace the Green vs. Tan set-up that we have. It would just enhance it. It would add one more way for teams to be able to identify friend or foe.
I understand that it wouldn't fix the problem completely, I just believe it would HELP.

Here is an example of a cheap armband
http://www.accolades.com/item_inform...3-a5777cd3112d

Alright....
Thoughts?
The local field I attend has always used armbands. It's just some colored wrap that comes in a roll. We hardly have any issues with it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONMAN View Post
MILSIM events should require all players to wear reflective belts. Since that's what goes on in the military, Air Force especially. Don't have your reflective belt with you then risk being pulled a 341 by a NCO.

There's "MILSIM" for ya....
341s are only for AETC students, unless I'm wrong. I'm not AD, so we don't really abide by this. I've seen NCO's and SNCO's with them on at Lackland though, and it was quite hilarious.

Issue I see with armbands is that some players don't want to purchase them (potential less player turnout, even if marginal), and if they're provided by the field, people will not always turn them in (purposely or otherwise). This leads to the field losing money unnecessarily because of dirtbags, and then it comes back to bite the good players.
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Old 09-27-2013, 02:08 PM
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341s are only for AETC students, unless I'm wrong. I'm not AD, so we don't really abide by this. I've seen NCO's and SNCO's with them on at Lackland though, and it was quite hilarious.
LOL, yep. They're equivalent to a behavior notice that you would get in middle school. We were still required to have them even in tech training at Lackland. Had to have something like 3 on us at all times.

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Old 09-27-2013, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellim View Post
I definitely appreciate this! If people would just "nut up" then there wouldn't be any issue. I guess if armbands aren't an option, then people need to accept the fact that they could very likely get friendly fired. And if it happens, who cares?! We're all "grown ups." I was just addressing an issue that I know pisses off a lot of people. People get pissed when they get friendly fired....plain and simple
The thing is, the Event Coordinator can do two things - he can make recommendation on patterns to use OR he can start kicking people off the field who refuse to wear a pattern. Is either decision fair? Yes.

The first where the Coordinator simple makes suggestions means that the sole decision is placed upon the player. He can choose something unique or something uniform. He then takes on the responsibility that by not choosing a suggested pattern, he may be mis-identified and that communicating his identity is now his sole responsibility.

This is fair because discretion and responsibility is paced upon the individual player where it belongs.

The second where the coordinator holds makes attendance dependent upon camo choice means that the player either is uniform or doesn't play. He can still be unique int he way he chooses gear and style of uniform used in addition to his "flair" 0 patches, name tags, etc. Friendly fire may still occur, but it may be less likely based on the uniform he's wearing and more on his sheer BB magnetism.

You can still find styles and cuts of uniform in many different colors and patterns that would conform. You can still spend just as much on your Gucci-flage in DCU as you would in ATACs, so getting your rocks off spending $300 on your DCU could still make you feel better than those idiots who found DCU for $25 on eBay. Yeah, what idiot likes to save money..

This is still a fair choice because the Event Coordinator has discretion on the finer details of his event. But this also puts the decision upon the player he can miss out on a cool game because he wanted to be fashionable or he could wear different camo and enjoy the game, then once he gets home, curl up in a little ball and cry in the shower over wearing "commoner's clothing.."

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Old 09-27-2013, 07:20 PM
Pappy Pappy is offline
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I sympathize but if we can't get people to do the simplest of tasks like wear a hat/helmet that matches their uniform color, you are asking for the moon.

Organizer: "You can't wear that hat, black is on the tan side at this event. Do you have a green hat?"

Green Player: "It's my only hat."

Organizer: "See if you can get a green one or don't wear one at all."

Green Player: "It says Uber 1337 Firearm Manufacturer's Name on it."

Organizer: "Then put on a tan uniform."

Green Player "This is my only set of camo."

Organizer: "Who's on first?"

Green Player: "What?"
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