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  #51  
Old 10-19-2010, 05:49 AM
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Franc just my .02 worth. As you know I do WWII reenacting. When I have been out doing battles we still have FF issues, you can’t get away from it. As things stand keep it Green-v-Tan, put ACU & MC in with the Tan Force. Also, at check-in make sure they match, including head gear if any. If they are wearing a go-fast-rag for head gear it needs to be the same color as the uniform. A helmet the same, if it is not they need to go without it. Better yet, I will be willing to carry green & tan spray paint and repaint for a nominal fee.

The best advice I can give is just enforce the unifom standard when it is made. We have a standard we follow in my 101st group. We had one or two people who thought we need to give in a couple of areas, they wanted to look like a soldier in the field for several days. When they found out we would not change the standards they left. The funny thing is during a couple of battles they wanted to run with us, the guys he had were just a bunch of cowboys. Sure some people may be upset at check in because they did not read the rule changes, but that is their fault.

Last edited by Fowler; 10-19-2010 at 05:51 AM.
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  #52  
Old 10-19-2010, 07:50 AM
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First off let me start by saying Thanks for a great time Saturday, Blade. I am glad I went and I am looking forward to many more events as I learn and become more involved in air-soft.

Being new to air-soft (Springfield 101610 was my first time ever at an event) I thought the tan green was OK. MC and ACU are lighter and I think for the sake of argument should be considered tan based.

As for FF and contractor load outs. You are wanting realism, FF s a part of war. As tragic as it is, it still happens. Contractors choose to take their own risk. If they get shot by either side that is the risk they take.

You don't want friendly fire try to identify your target first. During briefing, teams can assign challenge and response words for unknowns. IE: water and horse
Challenge: Is there water in the creek
Response: There are horses in the field
Any sentence that contains the challenge and response is acceptable.

I understand everyone wants it to be easier, but in war the things you guys are upset about happen. Firing at movement without knowing your target gets your own guys killed.

Enforce the rules you already have don't create more. If some one shows up out of the designated uniform they are a contractor and risk getting stitched up by both sides. After a couple of events people will learn and start to adhere to the rules.
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  #53  
Old 10-19-2010, 08:21 AM
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Its not really that contractor loadouts create IFF issues. Its not really even about FF in general. As we're seeing the direction of this feedback its about something else:

Its the mindset behind the players that tend to show up in hodgepodge outfits (and call it "contractor").

These folks tend to be new, tend to play like they're playing paintball or in their backyard or video games. They can't be bothered with anything but their gun. "Event Criteria, BackStory, Teams, Objectives, Loadouts, Rules, Safety, Sportsmanship? Pphsssht whatever." They want to get out and shoot.

Sounds like a stereotype, but its not. Thats the way its been.

To be blunt: I don't want those people on the field.
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  #54  
Old 10-19-2010, 10:21 AM
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Why would AUSCAM be tan? I Know a few people that have AUSCAM and it seems more woodland than tan
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  #55  
Old 10-19-2010, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillslam View Post
Its not really that contractor loadouts create IFF issues. Its not really even about FF in general. As we're seeing the direction of this feedback its about something else:

Its the mindset behind the players that tend to show up in hodgepodge outfits (and call it "contractor").

These folks tend to be new, tend to play like they're playing paintball or in their backyard or video games. They can't be bothered with anything but their gun. "Event Criteria, BackStory, Teams, Objectives, Loadouts, Rules, Safety, Sportsmanship? Pphsssht whatever." They want to get out and shoot.

Sounds like a stereotype, but its not. Thats the way its been.

To be blunt: I don't want those people on the field.
I will agree with you 100% there. Personally, I despise multicam as a pattern in airsoft but so many people love it that it will never be abolished. Oh well. But that isn't the issue at hand. If you have the right players and the right mindset then ANY rule you want to use to enforce sides is acceptable. Do not show up to an event that says a million times that you need to wear either woodland or DCU in jeans and a t-shirt, that person should be sent home. Or, if the event organizers are really in it to make money here is a super simple solution: rent out BDUs. Have a stash of woodland and DCU sitting around, charge an extra $20 for the set, the kid gets $10 back when he returns the BDU at the end of the day.

There is another solution to the problem. Raise the level of the game we as players and organizers expect instead of bringing the level down to the lowest common demoninator. If that means private invite only games, then so be it. Imagine how much more fun a game would be with about 30 really dedicated and serious players than with 80 idiots running around like its Call of Duty. It is a matter of what type of player we seek to encourage.
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  #56  
Old 10-19-2010, 10:59 AM
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I think it should be left up to the event organizers, not the community. If someone posts the BDU restrictions for the event and you don't agree with it, don't attend that event.

Open plays: since this suggests "come as your are" then the organizer needs to be ready to adapt to the colors and numbers. The could mean the use of armbands if the BDU patterns are too diverse.

Milsim: Event organizers can restrict BDU color and enforce compliance, unless that organizer is only interested in numbers and money. Then they better be willing to compromise their event theme and not complain to the players. Players need to comply with restrictions and not ask to bend the rules.

Private games: Your game, your rules!

To sum it up, it's up to the each and every event organizer. If you want to attend their game, as a player you better be ready to change your BDU if the event requires it. Otherwise find another game with less restrictions.
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  #57  
Old 10-19-2010, 11:09 AM
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Of course Evil Head is correct, however these community discussion can be useful to event organizers in helping to form their rules. So while it is ultimately up to the organizer, it never hurts to get the community's feedback.
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:12 AM
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Locutus hit it right on the head!
Organizers always have the final word but like Coca-cola and Papa John, when you change things without doing a proper customer research, you can sink...and fast
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  #59  
Old 10-19-2010, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Of course Evil Head is correct, however these community discussion can be useful to event organizers in helping to form their rules. So while it is ultimately up to the organizer, it never hurts to get the community's feedback.
While I agree feedback is always good, it's best to stick to what we already know and just inforce it more. Otherwise we'll have players showing up dressed as "dragon slayers" and "Neo for Columbine". This actually happens and that's what you get from the community.

Blade, you know what works, I suggest your enforce your rules especially for events like Blind Fury. I know you were proud of 400+ players, but I was upset to attend such a highly regarded event and fight along side a guy in a black t-shirt (this happened). I suggest you man up and deny access to those who don't comply. Sorry, you wanted honesty.
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  #60  
Old 10-19-2010, 11:23 AM
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Evil Head, don't be sorry, as you said, I asked for it. The black Tshirt incident is part of an issue I know I have to fix. I just don't like the solutions to fix it just yet (yeh, I am stubburn).

Being able to share between players and even organizers without turning the topics into a fight is what make AO so great....not always but most of the time
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  #61  
Old 10-19-2010, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Evil Head View Post
While I agree feedback is always good, it's best to stick to what we already know and just inforce it more.
I disagree, without discussion or experimentation we risk becoming stagnant. Through discussion or experimentation we might find out that what we already know is best, but maybe not. Also, not all organizers or even players want the same things out of an event. Each organizer must decide which group of players he wants to cater to, and such discussion might help both established organizers and potential organizers decide which group he wishes to cater to. While I am not participating in this discussion directly, I do like reading the thoughts and the opinions of others. I have been doing this a long time, sometimes fresh faces bring fresh ideas. But I don't want to derail this thread any longer, so please return to the discussion of camo.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:00 PM
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Then I suggest we all wear red and blue pullover jerseys.

Edit: Locutus, I'd like to see more action and less discussion.
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  #63  
Old 10-19-2010, 12:47 PM
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As everyone one has stated, it really is up to the event organizers. The basic tan vs green idea works well, its what we have all grown up with, and it's not going anywhere.

The idea that I am particularly intrigued with is the idea of FF results in both people dying. While this would limit the combat effectiveness of a side (losing 2 instead of 1) for a short time, I think you would see a dramatic decrease in the number of FF incidents. It puts the responsibility on the shooter to make sure that their target is an enemy and would discourage spray and pray.
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  #64  
Old 10-19-2010, 02:09 PM
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As everyone one has stated, it really is up to the event organizers. The basic tan vs green idea works well, its what we have all grown up with, and it's not going anywhere.

The idea that I am particularly intrigued with is the idea of FF results in both people dying. While this would limit the combat effectiveness of a side (losing 2 instead of 1) for a short time, I think you would see a dramatic decrease in the number of FF incidents. It puts the responsibility on the shooter to make sure that their target is an enemy and would discourage spray and pray.
That idea is something I don't see as practical. Not that the idea in itself is bad but we already use an honor system with hit calling and this would mean relying on somebody to call themselves out who cannot identify their target. I do not see it working.

I still think the easiest way to make it all better is to demand more from the player base. We are Airsfot Ohio, we pride ourselves on being better than everyone else. So at the events that require certain rules for color or pattern for each side, let's see the rules enforced. If we lower the standards we need to just accept a lower quality sport.
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  #65  
Old 10-19-2010, 10:16 PM
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I just don't like the solutions to fix it just yet (yeh, I am stubburn).
You can say that again! Blade, As I've told you for years, you have to stop trying to make EVERYONE happy. Enforce your rules. Period.
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  #66  
Old 10-20-2010, 07:43 AM
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I agree with Hardlock, create what you feel are the best rules for the advancement of airsoft and enforce them. We all had similar concerns when we got rid of high caps. All it took was a few events having that rule and enforcing it and now the no high cap rule is pretty common.

Create what you feel is best and enforce it. Legitimate teams will back you up and people that don't like the new rules just won't come to the event.
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  #67  
Old 10-20-2010, 08:41 AM
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Hardlock/Nextmayor,

I hear you but at the end of the day, when you spend so much time, energy and money on the field, you do not want to find out whatever you did was pointless. What I feel the best for the advancement of airsoft can be WAY different than what the community really wants.

Rules such as the high caps was successfully implemented because the organizers followed the same direction, which is why I personally appreciate comments from Evil Head and Locutus. If I am about to be the only one enforcing something, it will be a struggle at every event because (it is the reality), I will always get players coming at me saying "well I play at XYZ all the time and they let me". When the organizers get something going, it is much more difficult for the players to "bend" the rules...unless of course, all organizers are going AGAINST the community will.

So yes, enforcing the rules is a no brainer but for the rest, we all need to be able to adapt and overcome when needed.

p.s. Hardlock, a bad comment about an event goes a LONG way......so unless the players with good comments shut downs those who are saying bad comments, it is risky to just let the unhappy players going around without listening them and having solutions.

But anyway, I think I got the answer(s) I needed for now...thanks folks.
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  #68  
Old 10-20-2010, 11:09 AM
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I seem to recall being at several striker events years ago where it was woodland vs. marpat. I didn't have a problem telling sides apart. I think one of the bigger issues is that because airsoft isn't life and death it becomes more of a shoot first and ask questions later kinda game. I even remember some games at Fran Bar that were woodland vs. woodland. I don't remember armbands at all but its been a few years. People need to take a more active role in paying attention to who they are shooting. (I know this has been beaten to death in this thread)

Sorry if this is a repost. This is just some of my observations / 0.02.
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  #69  
Old 10-20-2010, 11:12 AM
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yeh, we did what you said Kraken but you have to remember, Fran bar events were averaging 30-40 players for the most part. Most events in Ohio are averaging 60-100 players these days. It is not as easy as it used to be
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  #70  
Old 10-20-2010, 01:40 PM
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Totally erase ACU and Multicam from the equation.
I have always felt that Multicam was a vary tan pattern, it has a tan/brown base which i always labeled as tan in my mind. maybe i just need a few more years under my belt to feel differently.
ACU is borderline and is re-defined at every game, which has gotten me killed (and almost killed) many many times, which is why i want to run down to Newport and pick up some desert.

In my opinion, DCU and desert Marpat against woodland and woodland Marpat little kiddies in their blue hoodies and people wearing mismatched should go buy some damn camo and stop messing up the game.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:16 PM
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Hey blade,
Just a quick idea, since we seem to have compiled a lot of ideas together why not host an invite only or open play where you can test out the arm band or split fractions. Maybe switch up the rules of engagement for each game, that way you could get some great feedback from the veterans or newbies. (depending on what you choose) Also might be a great time to run one of those night games you were thinking about a while back.
Edit: If you run the night game all teams will almost have to use some form of sign counter sign. Or other way of IFF.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:26 PM
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it's best to stick to what we already know and just inforce it more. Otherwise we'll have players showing up dressed as "dragon slayers" and "Neo for Columbine".
you gotta problem with neo ಠ_ಠ
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:35 PM
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:20 PM
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He who own/runs the field, should make the rules. This sport is constantly adding individuals, and I agree with Evil Head.
Open is open (less rules, lets keep this sport growing), Sim is sim (follow the rules or dont play), Private is private (run around naked if you want, its private).

I appreciate the question, but this has absorbed a ton of time and energy.

I know the organizers need to cover cost as well as maybe support team initiatives, but lets move on.

I only have one question. Can we have a Halloween match next year where we all dress up in costumes and shoot the shat out of each other? I would love to run around in a Ron Jeremy outfit....lol
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:26 AM
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I agree with Hardlock, Hillslam, and EH.

We have these types of discussions about once a year. Maybe not exactly this topic, but the general jist is the same.

"We need to change our ways and fix this" Yada Yada Yada. Things dont change. We talk about them and come up with a "great" solution everytime. But in the end, they arent enforced. We event hosts/vets let the new players push us around with exceptions and the like because we dont want attendance to drop. Us older players like structure. Why? Because we've learned that life doesnt work without structure. Everything in our lives is structured. The same morning routines, same work schedule, bill schedule, etc. The newer/younger croud doesnt know structure yet. So it will always be a younger guy vs older guy argument.

Make hard lines in your rules that leave perception and exception impossible. Then enforce the **** out of them.

If this was my regime, no one would be caught dead wearing anything other than boots and a matching uniform. I'd escort you off the field and charge you a buy in to get back on. I'd ban the hell out of people for causing problems to other players and the staff. Why? because this game is all about honesty and respect. If the players dont have this then we dont really have much of a hobby now do we? A quality game should always come first over quantity.

Blade, enforce your rules. If its the players causing the problem, beat them. If its your staff, beat them too. Dont cave for anyone who objects because they probably dont know any better.
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