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  #26  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:09 PM
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Crowd control IS policing. Border patrol agents are armed, why shouldn't there military "Backup" be too? No, those are all excuses. The job of policing the states belongs TO the states, not to Washington. I don't want a road block, or riot control to be commanded by some Colonel in Washington, but by locals. Even if I where willing to accept that our current forces have honorable intentions (which im not) I sill woulnt like it. Its opining the door. Ok, they are there for controlling disasters... its an easy step to crisis, and backing up SWAT teams... to regular backup... to next thing we know the military IS the police. The laws of this country are intended to keep things that could be questionable from occurring because slippery slopes are the way of the universe.

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Old 10-02-2008, 01:13 PM
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This isnt about it being bad having the National Guard protect our homeland. This is saying they are now using federal army "regulars" day to day, from now on, in an geographic area that is named in constitutions, laws, and acts as off limits to them except in insane, crazy katie-bar-the-door circumstances. Since the National Guard hasnt gone away and hasnt done anything to the American public to make us not want them here whats changed? Seems common sense that if the national guard are scarce because theyve been conscripted to fight overseas (as some have suggested was the reason for this) the american people would be better served to have this Federal Army Brigade replace those guard overseas and let them come home to do their primary job description.
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:23 PM
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The issue is not whether a federal response can be used, but in what circumstances it can be used. The statute says federal troops can't be used "except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress."

I'm inclined to think Posse Comitatus is impetent.

1. Congress can authorize pretty much anything it wants.

2. The precedent has already been established (many times) for federal control over things not expressly authorized by the Constitution (for example, the NEA). What makes us think we would all of the sudden care now when we never cared before?
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fox View Post
Oh?

What about a massive earth quake where infrastructure is damaged, communication systems are down, local police forces are scattered at best, and national guard troops aren't enough. There will be rioting, looting, etc. That in turn would require that force.
The fact that you think the federal government is able to do anything the right way is scary. In a disaster situation the last thing I want is heavily armed agents of the federal government telling me what they think is best for me.

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Or how about in the example of Ike just recently, people not listening to police forces trying to keep them out of a severally damaged area? That would require road blocks.
People not listening to police forces? We are NOT a police state. We have the right to our property, even in disaster situations. It sucks for the police and emergency responders. But you know what? The united states is of the people by the people and for the people, not by the police of the police and for the police. They serve us, NOT the other way around.

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I seriously don't understand what the problem is. People will complain if there is no federal response to disasters. Now that there is a unit set up for it, they're complaining about it's existence.
Federal response should not be an infantry division. That's the problem.


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  #30  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:29 PM
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Ok minus all the conspiracy stuff, lets get down to reality.

1. You have no problems with national guard stepping into help out with disasters.

However, recently we've had natural disasters of remarkable scale causing damage that really has never been seen before. Not only that, but it's been nearly every year something of terrible proportions happens.

Hurricane Katrina and Rita
Western American wild fires.
Hurricane Gustav and Ike

All of these have damaged and decimated huge swaths of land, whether by damaging infrastructure or being so terribly large that local forces, including national guard cannot handle the situation.

Now, looking at it from this: National guard aid mostly comes from the state that is hit by the disaster. What happens when the homes, families, etc. of those national guard members are hit? What happens when they are no longer effective, as seen in Hurricane Katrina and Rita? When there was no possible way that those reserve forces could deliver the aid needed?

How about in the California wild fires that burned thousands of square miles, when not even the national guard forces had enough strength to help out, and thousands of homes were burnt?

I see no other choice then a Federal assistance force really, realistically. Our military is on a volunteer only force, which means if the national guard is only a certain size. Since they can only get so many recruits. Maybe because Ohio in the scheme of things, is pretty sheltered the scale of these disasters isn't understood. But, what is a national guard member going to do - go serve, or protect his family in the time of an emergency if they can't get out?

I don't exactly see what the problem is when Federal troops are sent to back up local national guard and police forces. And I would say the natural disasters we've been having recently are "Crazy Katie-bar-the-door Circumstances" that local police, national guard, and state police just cannot handle.

Edit for the quote:

"People not listening to police forces? We are NOT a police state. We have the right to our property, even in disaster situations. It sucks for the police and emergency responders. But you know what? The united states is of the people by the people and for the people, not by the police of the police and for the police. They serve us, NOT the other way around."

Uh, sure you do. Once all the infrastructure is back in place. I don't see a single reason to let people back into a heavily damaged area where LIVE power lines are down, the roads are flooded with a mixture of water, gas, oil, and sewage. Natural gas lines are broke, possibly even flaming. Where there house is about to fall down as soon as they open the front door again.

People simply won't protect themselves, and when someone dies of their own stupidity, someone will always blame someone else other then that person. If we don't keep people out of situations like that, matters only get worst. Repairs only take longer.
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Last edited by Fox; 10-02-2008 at 01:34 PM.
  #31  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:37 PM
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Yes THX, it would seem that would be the obvious choice. But our military is spread thin. I have no idea what percentage of our forces are in Iraq, but you can bet it is a significant amount. Not to mention our troops in Afghanistan which we are increasing their numbers. Those guys need a break from the stress of being in a combat zone. Being stateside gives them that break while lessening the load of the National Guard. Face it, in the last few years this country has been hit hard with disasters. Federal authorities have realized the man power needed to perform disaster relief on a larger scale is not there. You only need to look at hurricane Katrina to see that for yourself. The National Guard didn't have the manpower to come in and take care of it themselves.

As far as what has changed... two major war fronts, several natural disasters, increased threat of terrorism, failing economy, lack of recruits...you need more?

And damnyankee, your distrust of the US armed forces is properly placed. They have all decided to come after us citizens. Come on, give me a break. I served in the military. I take a great deal of offense to that statement as I'm sure others in here probably will. Without the military where would YOU be???
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:41 PM
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Even the constitution makes provisions for times of crisis, in which personal freedoms must be suspended for the "common good."

So if you are going to hold the Constitution up as being the word of god, it seems somewhat hypocritical to me to only support the parts you like, while damning the parts where your freedoms must be suspended to protect you and others from harm.
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2008, 02:08 PM
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Chichago Fire?
San Fransisco earth quakes of Anytime before 1930?
The Dust Bowl?
Any number of un-named hurricanes before 1930?

Disasters are not new. Only our perception of them.

You've repeated "I dont see what the problem is" in every response, and every time Ive told you what the problem is. Its a conceptual problem that by having federal agents, what ever there intention, violates the spirit of the laws. It also violates the separation of powers.

I can understand why you may think of our concerns are a big deal, but you should be able to understand why they are to us. This isn't about conspiracies, its about precedent.

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  #34  
Old 10-02-2008, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnyankee View Post
Chichago Fire?
San Fransisco earth quakes of Anytime before 1930?
The Dust Bowl?
Any number of un-named hurricanes before 1930?

Disasters are not new. Only our perception of them.
The country's ability to respond to disasters effectively is "new" - ish. Until the civilian infastructure can evolve to cover more of these things, they will rely on outside help.
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  #35  
Old 10-02-2008, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnyankee View Post
Chichago Fire?
San Fransisco earth quakes of Anytime before 1930?
The Dust Bowl?
Any number of un-named hurricanes before 1930?

Disasters are not new. Only our perception of them.

You've repeated "I dont see what the problem is" in every response, and every time Ive told you what the problem is. Its a conceptual problem that by having federal agents, what ever there intention, violates the spirit of the laws. It also violates the separation of powers.

I can understand why you may think of our concerns are a big deal, but you should be able to understand why they are to us. This isn't about conspiracies, its about precedent.

Christopher


True, disasters are not new. Neither is our perception of them. How many times in our history has the levy in New Orleans broke? How many times has hurricane force winds swept through Ohio, for that matter, and left over a million people without power? That isn't even taking into account the areas that were actually hit by the hurricane. How much money do you think was used to repair those damages? If everything was left completely up to the individual state several states would be without funds right now I'd imagine. That is funds that help pay for the National Guard. Funds that also are used to give our children an education, or to help the poor.

And I am assuming by Federal Agents you are talking about the Army because in almost every disaster you will find Federal Agents. Ever heard of FEMA? In the case of severe disasters the constitution is void and these guys are in control. That is the way it's been for many, many years. Besides, nowhere in the constitution does it garrantee your rights. It states that you have these rights, but if you honestly believe they can't be taken from you, go out and commit a felony and see how many rights you loose.

As far as you being concerned about it, I can completely see why someone would be...without knowing the whole story. When they start having the Rangers chase down jay walkers I will probably be concerned about it. But they are not infringing on citizens rights or the domain of the state without a just cause.
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  #36  
Old 10-02-2008, 02:34 PM
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And in all of those examples, Thousands of people have died.

Also in the older examples, we had no where near the infrastructure we have today.

Using history as an example of 'what we should do' just bit you in the ***. We want to prevent an entire city from burning down.

We want to prevent 10,000 dying in Galveston in a Hurricane.

We want prevent thousands from dying of Starvation.

In those examples that's what happened. Do you want hundreds, if not thousands of people to die? Honestly just answer. In an unprepared response, that is exactly what happens. Look at what happens when hurricanes hit other countries, even though the area is much less densely populated, Hundreds if not thousands of people die. In the United States, we consider it bad when Hurricanes hit extremely densely populated areas and a tens to hundreds of people die.

I don't even see what precedent was set and when. I went to Kent State for sakes, and no one even knows what truly happens there. I'm a history major above that, there IS not precedent of use of federal troops in a relief situation. Yet, your saying there is one, I'm asking where.

Yes, Our perception of disasters have changed. Our infrastructure has changed, the world has changed since every event you have listed.

In the 1930's there were no high pressure gas lines that push through millions of cubic feet of natural gas under every major city. There were not the numbers of gas stations with hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel below ground. There were not the vasts amounts of people in the cities as well, look at the population increase from 1930 to today. Look at the geographical shift of people especially post-dust bowl era.

The biggest problem with the United States is people lacking the will to change things and people driving against the cause of change. Our local and state governments are simply ill prepared to deal with this level of disaster anymore. It was prove in 1994 with Andrew, lessons did not get repeated until Katrina. Now there is a SORT of effort to bring relief when these disasters happen.. and yet no one wants it.

As much as you don't like it, the reality is we need it. State budgets are being broken down all the time, money is needed else where. States can either spend hundreds of millions on disaster relief programs, or cut back on that and spend it on Schools, or health care systems, or police departments to combat higher more violent crime rates. If The state simply cannot do it, then who is left to?

Or should people caught in the way of Hurricanes be left to their own? Or people in earth quakes left to their own wits? Or should we let forest fires burn millions of acres of land each year?

We, people, have caused, and continue to cause many of these problems. For whatever reasons, anything can be blamed from green house gases making hurricanes more violent to the reality of someone letting a fire get out of control, or in the most recent case of California wildfires, someone purposefully lighting it and it burning 300,000 square miles. So in change, we, people, have to fix it. The State government can't, the local governments can't. We really have no other realistic options then the Federal government, more specifically the Military.

And yeah, you questioned me on asking if I believe the federal government can do anything right - To be honest, We have NO other choice right now besides letting things get rampant.

Let me put a quick dooms-day situation in your head.

Hurricane Bob aims directly for Lake Charles LA. Guess what is there? 9 of the biggest oil refineries in the United States. Pre-hurricane every off shore rig shuts down, oil stocks are emptied due to the oncoming hurricane. The LOOP takes a direct hit, catastrophic damage reported from it. Street corner gas prices - especially in the NE Soar to unprecedented rates due to just this news. People make a rush on gas and there is none. Rioting breaks out across the United States. Hurricane Bob now goes onto Lake Charles, with a direct hit at 9 of the biggest refineries in the United States. Damage once more is catastrophic, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of gallons of crude oil all over the local community. Oil prices around the world shoot up. There IS no gasoline in the United States anymore now, people are rioting, local police don't even have fuel for their own cars, National guard due to their limitations have only a month's worth on hand.

Who is going to help, truly?

It's actually surprisingly scary how easily that could happen. Once again people reluctant to change have kept of infrastructure at bay to this. The EPA Refusing to let new oil and gas refineries to be built, the last one built in 1972.

15% of the United States' oil comes through the LOOP (especially for you Ohioians like me, this is important. Very important to us. About 85% of our fuel comes from the LOOP.) Yet, it is the ONLY deep water tanker unloading spot in the United States because no other state will let another be built.

Hrm, seems to me the only people that can help right now is the Military and Federal Government. They're the only ones with a prepared force (now) that could combat Rioting, keep people from endangering themselves in the mess that would be lake Charles. And, provide fuel to keep peace as well as doing anti-riot patrols.

Your simple statements of:
"The fact that you think the federal government is able to do anything the right way is scary. In a disaster situation the last thing I want is heavily armed agents of the federal government telling me what they think is best for me."

and
"People not listening to police forces? We are NOT a police state. We have the right to our property, even in disaster situations. It sucks for the police and emergency responders. But you know what? The united states is of the people by the people and for the people, not by the police of the police and for the police. They serve us, NOT the other way around."

Tells me you don't even know what is best for yourself in a disaster situation. Above that your distrust for anyone in a uniform, whether it be military or police. Their job is to make sure you don't get yourself killed. And by having an attitude like that, it wouldn't matter if its Military or Local police, or someone just saying 'Hey don't do that'. Yes, everyone has rights to their property. However when returning to their property causes them to endanger their own being, or others then people simply loose that right. When there is a open natural gas line, and joe shmoe lights a cigarette and blows the entire neighbor hood to kingdom come, who gets blamed? Joe? or the people who let them go back there? It happened in Katrina, police let a person return their house, and the house fell down on them. There was a multi-million dollar law suite over it.

Once more, people cannot protect themselves under most normal circumstances. No, the federal government probably isn't the best to tell us what we should do. However, at certain times like that: There are no other options.
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  #37  
Old 10-02-2008, 04:35 PM
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We obviously live in different universes. I'm not sure if its some fluke of the internet that allows us to communicate, but never the less there it is.

I'm an old school Heinlien style Libertarian. "Live free or die" is more than just a slogan on my license plate. So, yes, if it was up to me I would let people die to keep government out of where it doesn't belong. In my world view, people have no business relying on the government for their survival. If they cant survive with out the government - well... life sucks wear a helmet.

I know you mean well, thinking that people need to be taken care of. But there is more to life than being alive, and all that big government offers is little more than slavery.

Christopher
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Old 10-02-2008, 05:01 PM
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Are you referring to the bailout bill?
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  #39  
Old 10-02-2008, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnyankee View Post
Chichago Fire?
San Fransisco earth quakes of Anytime before 1930?
The Dust Bowl?
Any number of un-named hurricanes before 1930?

Disasters are not new. Only our perception of them.

You've repeated "I dont see what the problem is" in every response, and every time Ive told you what the problem is. Its a conceptual problem that by having federal agents, what ever there intention, violates the spirit of the laws. It also violates the separation of powers.

I can understand why you may think of our concerns are a big deal, but you should be able to understand why they are to us. This isn't about conspiracies, its about precedent.

Christopher
In your opinion it is a matter of precedent, in his, it's a matter of conspiracy theories. He doesn't see an issue with it, and you do. Welcome to Democracy sir, Democracy is a majority rule operation, and I can say with a fair amount of confidence that people that share your opinion are in the minority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by damnyankee View Post
I'm an old school Heinlien style Libertarian. "Live free or die" is more than just a slogan on my license plate. So, yes, if it was up to me I would let people die to keep government out of where it doesn't belong. In my world view, people have no business relying on the government for their survival. If they cant survive with out the government - well... life sucks wear a helmet.
Christopher
Humans make mistakes, and often need to rely on fellow man to bail them out of the issues that they themselves (sometimes) cause, or fail to plan for. To refuse to assist people in their time of need is to be no better than the Soviets. To devalue human life is criminal. To ignore your fellow man in his time of need is heartless.

I don't think that Uncle Sam should be involved in everything we do, nor do I believe that the help shouldn't be there if people need it. But I can tell you this: Anyone that would so willingly sacrifice his fellow man so that his personal rights could be preserved isn't worthy of the rights they possess.

The day the US Army/Government starts shooting US Civilians will be the day I take up arms against her, but this isn't that day. There are too many conspiracy nuts who see things that don't exist, or that in this case, are highly unlikely.

Most people that come up with this crap don't think the thought through to completion. The US Government is made up of US Citizens, who aren't likely to randomly start murdering their fellow Citizens. US Serviceman are honor (and contractually) bound to refuse illegal orders, and their current ROE is ridiculous.
  #40  
Old 10-02-2008, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
there is more to life than being alive
Being alive is one of the major criteria of "life." Kinda the most important because that is where the majority of action occurs. Granted the breakdown and deterioration of the body following one's death does offer benefits to local plant and animal life, usually lack of life does majorly hamper social activities and interaction.

Normally, less priority is given to those no longer living than those with a steady pulse and cognitive function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damnyankee View Post
I'm an old school Heinlien style Libertarian. "Live free or die" is more than just a slogan on my license plate. So, yes, if it was up to me I would let people die to keep government out of where it doesn't belong. In my world view, people have no business relying on the government for their survival. If they cant survive with out the government - well... life sucks wear a helmet.
No, from your thoughts, and following along, you're more of an anarchist. You want the government to sit idly by while its people die. The people support the government with tax dollars and protect the government through service with their lives. Why shouldn't the government of the people and by the people act to protect itself?

WE are Americans. So WE must take care of our own.
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  #41  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:18 PM
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"In your opinion it is a matter of precedent, in his, it's a matter of conspiracy theories. He doesn't see an issue with it, and you do. Welcome to Democracy sir, Democracy is a majority rule operation, and I can say with a fair amount of confidence that people that share your opinion are in the minority."

We are in fact a Republic. And that's what this is about. Our government was NOT set up for mob rule. unfortunately, that's where its headed.

And no, I am not an anarchist just because I think the federal government should be small.

I'm not going to continue this discussion. I don't see the point, you have sated your beliefs, and I mine. This is more than a matter of deep personal morals that mere policy.

Christopher.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:37 PM
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Yep, just let it go. Once a dogpile starts, it's all over.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:53 PM
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Alright lets get rid of fire departments, EMT's, and Police.

They infringe on your rights, and they intervene in your life so they must be bad. When your house is burning or you have a medical emergency you will come around fast to how necessary the government is in our lives. If you don't want the government in your life and as you put it "let people die to keep government out of where it doesn't belong". Firefighters, EMT's, and Police should keep out of your home since they don't belong.
During the recent wind storm our town lost power to our city radio system, we relied on 800mHz radios that we purchased with a FEDERAL grant. According to your system we should have just been SoL because we weren't "living free".
The government does so much to assist you in your day to day life, if you knew how much they did you would go hide in a hole to avoid it. So many industries have become safer and more consumer friendly thanks to the government protecting us. Our government is for the citizens by the citizens, so I don't see why you seem to think they are so out of touch.
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  #44  
Old 10-02-2008, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sgt. Horvath View Post
It seems everyone is forgetting, as servicemen we have the duty to disobey unlawful orders. I have serious doubts that anyone I have ever served with would without hesitation open fire on any civilians, foreign or domestic, just because someone in charge "told them to do so". It's not a simple as "Would you shoot at Americans?" I really doubt it was that simple of a situation at Kent State.

Yes that is true, we do have a duty to disobey unlawful orders. Please dont get what i said wrong, i wasnt saying if one of my superiors told me to kill a civilian that wasnt compleatly nessesary that i would do it. We know when an order shouldnt be followed. Being an enlisted soldier we know first hand that the people that make the decisions usualy arnt there, they dont know what is going on. We are there, we see what is going on, and it is ultimitly our decision to make. Idk i thought that was kind of implyed. Guess i want a little overbord on my first post huh.

Last edited by Specter357(2nd); 10-02-2008 at 09:56 PM.
  #45  
Old 10-03-2008, 07:30 AM
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I can understand damned yankee's concerns. I just don't share his view. I think back to when I was in Tunisia. Ropes lined the streets and armed guards were posted on every street corner. You did not so much as jay walk there. This was their way of life, noone even gave it any thought that their freedoms were being infringed upon. Because to them they weren't being infringed upon. I would hate to see the day our government did that. We have it very easy here in the US. Most of us take our freedoms for granted. In some countries they would have a persons head for saying anything negative about the government. Yet here we are given the freedom to state our distrust of armed forces, or our disdain for the governing body. I can assure you there are people who are much worse off. But from this act there will be no ropes springing up and guards appearing on street corners. There will be no military check points to pass through on your way to work. Noone is going to come to your door and force you to do something against your will. Chances are you will never feel the effects of this. But if we were to get hit with a natural disaster and my childrens lives are on the line, I wouldn't care who you are, what uniform you are wearing, who you're working for or anything else. I would care about the lives of my childen. There is no way I would refuse help from someone just because they work for the government. Nor would I begrudge that help to my neighbor, for he deserves to live as much as I do.

At any rate, we all have different views on this. To each their own. I'd still be happy to take the field with any of you.
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Last edited by Wraith; 10-03-2008 at 07:34 AM.
  #46  
Old 10-03-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
Chances are you will never feel the effects of this.
Good message, but I have a small point. Not feeling the effects of something should NEVER be the standard upon which you judge something. Judge ideas by their philosophical and scientific merits, without regard to personal benefit or liability.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBanker View Post
Good message, but I have a small point. Not feeling the effects of something should NEVER be the standard upon which you judge something. Judge ideas by their philosophical and scientific merits, without regard to personal benefit or liability.


Agreed. Though I was speaking of the population in general and not an individual. Most generally I am for anything that helps the people whether it helps me or not. I see this as helping the people when times of crisis arise even though I may never (or I hope I never) need it.

Scientifically speaking I have no basis to stand on.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:20 AM
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apparently the 6,000 federal troops policing US citizens, that we didnt have to worry about, has balloned to 20,000 (admitted) in the last 2 months.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4639998.shtml
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:25 PM
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Um, not to side with anyone here, just playing devil's advocate. But did everyone here who is so vehemently defending the upmost 'faith' in the local police or National Guard doing the right thing during a disaster crisis forget that this happened during Katrina?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo
http://www.gunowners.org/no02.htm
http://feedlot.blogspot.com/2005/09/...-gun-grab.html
http://www.gunowners.org/no07.htm

I saw a video of one poor 90 year old lady with a pistol get knocked to the ground in her kitchen, disarmed, and put in hand cuffs by National Guardsmen. And she had a gun license!

Last edited by Torque; 12-01-2008 at 03:50 PM.
  #50  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:28 PM
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When do I get my brown shirt?
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