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Old 06-26-2008, 01:53 PM
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Supreme Court finds individual right to own guns

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...rpc=22&sp=true

By James Vicini

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - For the first time in U.S. history, the Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that individual Americans have the right to own guns for personal use, and struck down a strict gun control law in the U.S. capital.

The landmark 5-4 ruling marked the first time in nearly 70 years the country's high court has addressed whether the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, rather than a right tied to service in a state militia.

In the majority opinion, Justice Antonin Scalia said the Second Amendment protected an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Although an individual now has a constitutional right to own guns, that new right is not unlimited, wrote Scalia, a hunter.

He said the ruling should not be taken to cast doubt on long-standing prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill or on laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in places like schools and government buildings or laws imposing conditions on gun sales.

The Supreme Court's last review of the Second Amendment came in a five-page discussion in an opinion issued in 1939 that failed to definitively resolve the constitutional issue.

In Thursday's opinion, the court struck down the country's strictest gun control law adopted in Washington, D.C., 32 years ago. It bans private possession of handguns and requires that any rifles or shotguns kept at home be unloaded and dissembled or bound by a trigger lock.

FIRST TIME GUN CONTROL LAW STRUCK DOWN

The ruling marked the first time that the Supreme Court has struck down a gun control law for violating the Second Amendment. The ruling could be the beginning of an era in which anti-gun regulations are subject to legal challenges.

The justices split along conservative-liberal lines in the ruling, one of the most important of the court's current term, in deciding a legal battle over gun rights in America. The ruling came on the last day of the court's 2007-08 term.

In dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer wrote, "The decision threatens to throw into doubt the constitutionality of gun laws throughout the United States."

President George W. Bush's two appointees on the court, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, both voted with the majority in finding an individual right to keep firearms.

The court adopted the gun rights position advocated by the Bush administration. White House spokesman Tony Fratto said,

"We're pleased that the Supreme Court affirmed that the Second Amendment protects the right of Americans to keep and bear arms."

Republican presidential candidate John McCain applauded the ruling and criticized his likely Democratic opponent Barack Obama for comments he had made.

"Unlike the elitist view that believes Americans cling to guns out of bitterness, today's ruling recognizes that gun ownership is a fundamental right -- sacred, just as the right to free speech and assembly," McCain said.

The ruling came the day after a worker at a plastics plant in Henderson, Kentucky, used a handgun to shoot and kill five people inside the factory before killing himself, the latest in a series of deadly shooting sprees across the country.

The United States is estimated to have the world's highest civilian gun ownership rate. Gun deaths average 80 a day in the United States, 34 of them homicides, according to Centers for Disease Control data.

The ruling was a victory for **** Anthony Heller, a security guard who lives in a high-crime neighborhood and who wants to keep a handgun in his home for self-defense.

For decades, the meaning of the Second Amendment has been at the heart of a political and legal debate over gun control. People have argued whether the amendment guarantees the right to bear arms to individuals or to citizens in a militia.

Written more than 200 years ago, the amendment says, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Gun control advocates had feared that a ruling finding an unfettered individual right to own guns could place in jeopardy laws around the country regulating private possession of firearms -- a view taken by the liberal dissenting justices.

The justices upheld a precedent-setting U.S. appeals court ruling that individuals have a right to bear arms and that struck down the Washington, D.C., law for violating those rights.

(Additional reporting by Jeremy Pelofsky; Editing by Deborah Charles and David Wiessler)

Thomson Reuters 2008 All rights reserved
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:14 PM
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i always felt that our founding fathers gave us this right so we can over throw our government if need be...
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Parasite205 View Post
i always felt that our founding fathers gave us this right so we can over throw our government if need be...
There is no reason to just "feel" that way, it is a fact and they stated so.
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:34 PM
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Indeed it has always been written that we should have the ability (the right) to defend ourselves as a nation against threats from within or from the outside. This is indeed a monumental occassion and great cause for celebration. Due to the lack of organized state run militias, the duty falls to the standard citizen.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:01 PM
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This is great news. We should celebrate by buying a large amount of firearms.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:03 PM
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I'm with Texx (calls his local shop to reserve the new Magpul ACR)
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:04 PM
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My initial instinct was that this is good news but its not great news when this reinforces the belief that its OK for the government to issue permits and taxation for a "god given" right and solidify further that citizens couldnt ever possibly want/enjoy/need a firearm made after 1986 that shoots more than 1 bullet per trigger pull, or has x US-made parts out of x+y total parts by punishment of a felony, and on and on.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:51 PM
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Its about time. Finally the second amendment applies to the people and not just the goverment. Now no one can say otherwise before this case some ppl thought that gun ownership only applied to the goverment. However THX is right its good news but no great. To win this battle with the anti gun crowd it will have be won bit by bit. Now that a total ban on handguns is unconstutitonal we can try to win the fight with "Assualt Weapons" all though they are really just semi-automatics that look like military grade firearms not being banned ever again. With this win the old Assualt Weapons bill that sunset in 2004 hopefully will never be passed again. Hopefully ill be able to get my hands on a Semi-auto Scar L if its ever realesed to the public
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Last edited by Big Boss; 06-26-2008 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:10 PM
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I dont know if any of you know this but in Ohio, we are allowed to buy and own class III ( full-auto) weapons. You must first qualify to buy a federal class III license and pay the federal taxes, and all the other BS fees, but our state has no ban on owning class III firearms.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:28 PM
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A class III license is for SELLING title II arms. No license needed to possess. Pay the tax, do the paperwork. wait a few months, pay humungous bucks and you are good to go.

As to the court decision: the court can only decide the case before it. It cannot just roll back laws that are not challenged in the case. They decided what they were asked to do, and it was a huge victory for the RKBA.

Our rights were not abridged all at once, it was a bit at a time. They will be restored a bit at a time. The battle is just beginning. There will be dozens of more cases as a result of this decision. Some will be good, others will be bad.

But we are starting to move in the right direction.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:13 PM
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Within minutes of their ruling being filed, the NRA sued the city of Chicago to try to overturn it's gun ban. We'll see what happens...
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:25 PM
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CAR15A2, you are right, but I meant if you wanted to purchase the firearms through yourself and not a class III dealer. You would then have to have a class III liscense. They are rediculous in price, though.

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Last edited by Agent Spencer; 07-06-2008 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:43 PM
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Now if they would just do something about those pesky mandatory drug tests.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botulism View Post
I dont know if any of you know this but in Ohio, we are allowed to buy and own class III ( full-auto) weapons. .
Not if they are made after 1986 (on Reagans watch).
And if it was made before 1986 you just have to follow these few simple steps...
http://www.targetworld.net/Steps%20f...%2011-3-07.pdf

Last edited by THX; 06-26-2008 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:15 PM
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the ruling is nice but it still left dc the ability to not issue permits plus dc considers any semi to be a machine gun.

i have not read the whole thing but its gonna be interesting to see where this is going to go.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:42 PM
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Happy to hear about this ruling but don't be fooled, this is a constant struggle that will sadly never go away. Nice to win one for once, plus the recent Ohio "defense" code changes. Keep your eyes open though, it will only be another week or so before a certain party will be back appealing and adding more ridiculous false "statistics" to try and step on our basic rights once again... I wouldn't be suprised if this is suddenly all forgotten 2-3 years down the line, and some other new ruling is put in place.
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Last edited by Lu; 06-27-2008 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:44 AM
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The rediculous prices for getting a gun dealing permit is because of your good friend Bill Clinton who imposed a 1000% increase on gun dealer licenses. Vermont has the 2nd lowest crime rate in the country and has no restrictions on guns like we have in Ohio. You do not have to register a weapon, you do not have to have a carry concealed permit, and you are allowed to carry a gun on you at any time. A few other states have this type of laws and all have the lowest crime rates in America. Thats something you wont see on CNN or NBC.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:08 AM
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Well yeah, but there are a million other factors involved, like population density and climate. I'd like to think that the lack of gun restrictions CAUSED the low crime rate, but that seems like an awfully big leap to make.
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Last edited by India; 06-27-2008 at 09:08 AM. Reason: edit
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botulism View Post
CAR15A2, you are right, but I meant if you wanted to purchase the firearms through yourself and not a class III dealer. You would then have to have a class III liscense. They are rediculous in price, though.
Not really a license.

You need a stamp for any sear. The stamp is for the sear if I recall. And the stamp is, again if I remember correctly is $200.00.

You dont get a Class III permit unless you are a dealer, or a marketing rep, or demo guy.

The guns are expensive because of the sear. All a Full Auto gun is, is a different lower and a sear. While the lower is cheap and the gun itself is realitiyly inexpensive, the sear can cost upwards of $12,000.00. And I am pretty sure the only thing that needs the stamp is the sear.
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Old 06-27-2008, 05:03 PM
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I apologize, you are correct about the tax stamp, and they are $200. I have found websites that are selling class III ak-47's for $1000. I have also seen ads for m-60's(the original's) asking $47,000.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:25 PM
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civilians can only purchase machine guns made and registered before may of 86.
its a limited supply plus an increasing demand that keeps the prices going up.

the $200 tax is a minor inconvenience compared to the price of the guns.

this ruling might actually run the prices of machine guns down.

if people think there is a chance that the registery will open they will stop buying.
on the other hand if the big collectors think the same thing they will start selling.

there's a guy selling nearly 300k in machine guns on subguns.com
all his current ads were posted this week.
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Old 07-05-2008, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmypop View Post
the ruling is nice but it still left dc the ability to not issue permits plus dc considers any semi to be a machine gun.

i have not read the whole thing but its gonna be interesting to see where this is going to go.
DC can make all the claims they want. If they try to enforce them the courts will stop them.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
in Ohio. You do not have to register a weapon, you do not have to have a carry concealed permit, and you are allowed to carry a gun on you at any time.
If you want to carry it concealed you DO have to have a CCW permit. ANd yes you can carry visible any time.

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. Due to the lack of organized state run militias, the duty falls to the standard citizen.
Ummm 26 states, including Ohio have organized state run militias. Technically, the National Guard is part of the organized militia in their respective states.

Last edited by Agent Spencer; 07-06-2008 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutthroat View Post
The rediculous prices for getting a gun dealing permit is because of your good friend Bill Clinton who imposed a 1000% increase on gun dealer licenses. Vermont has the 2nd lowest crime rate in the country and has no restrictions on guns like we have in Ohio. You do not have to register a weapon, you do not have to have a carry concealed permit, and you are allowed to carry a gun on you at any time. A few other states have this type of laws and all have the lowest crime rates in America. Thats something you wont see on CNN or NBC.
You are required to have a permit if you are to carry a pistol concealed in Ohio. Open carry is still technically legal, but should the Police feel like being picky, they could pick you up on other charges (such as disturbing the peace, etc etc).

I would be very careful about giving anyone advice about firearms laws if I were you.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:11 AM
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Did it ever occur to anyone that we've let the military become too powerful to overthrow the government with Mausers and de-militarized AKs?

I think it's a pathetic dream that we thing we would ever be able to fight against a modern state. Besides, the founding fathers lived in a much rougher time than we do. The modern state is considerably different than the governments of the time of the founding fathers.
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