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Old 07-19-2006, 07:06 PM
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N00bs: Thread Ver. 2.0

Hello Again Guys!

Well, since the original thread got moved to the Hall of Infamy and my Version 2 idea got hijacked by the Airsoft anti-Christ, known to some as Loki (Just kidding Loki!! You know I love you.... with butter!!), I decided to repost my original topic with updated material to better explain the intentions of making such a post.

I would like to start by saying that this is in no way an attempt to flame newbies, but is rather a call out to seasoned veterans to help the genuine newbie make a smooth transition into the community here at Airsoft Ohio and into the sport of airsoft. For those of you who read my previous post, and to those who commended on it, both constructively and otherwise, I want everyone to know that this is a serious thread, a serious topic, and I expect serious and respectful answers that contribute to the thread. I will be using the Community Moderation tools with extreme prejudice and I will ask others who read this thread to do the same when they see problems occur. This thread is intended to be constructive in its criticism of Newbies and in no way destructive. It is intended to be a small wake up call to those people who are newbies, or who act like newbies and don't realize it. It is intended to be a way to define what a newbie is, and discuss a baseline for how newbies, both good and bad ones, behave. I am not here to insult anyone. Nuff said, lets move on to the topic.

Please read my previous post in it's entirety before making any responses:

Noobs, N00bs, newbs, newbies, nobs or whatever else you call them, pretty much everyone agrees that those names signify that the so called "noob" is "NEW" to the community or the sport, or new to whatever activity they are currently new to. The saying comes from the word Newbie, defined as:

Quote:
One that is new to something, especially a novice at using computer technology or the Internet.
or:

Quote:
/n[y]oo'bee/ (Originally from British public-school and military slang variant of "new boy") An inexperienced user of Usenet or other system. This term surfaced in the newsgroup news:talk.bizarre but is now in wide use. Criteria for being considered a newbie vary wildly; a person can be called a newbie in one newsgroup while remaining a respected regular in another. The label "newbie" is sometimes applied as a serious insult to a person who has been around Usenet for a long time but who carefully hides all evidence of having a clue.
Love 'em or Hate 'em, they're here to stay. There will always be a constant influx of noobs to act as forum fodder wherever they go. They are the people who sometimes make your head feel like it's going to explode. They are the ones who ask all the question that can easily be answered by using the search function. They are the ones who find your username in your member profile and then annoy the hell out of you 24/7. They are the crux of the universe, yet they are also the future.

One key point that rings true for all of us. We were all newbies at one point in our lives. Those of us who are veterans were once newbies, and some newbies are... well, some people just never outgrow being a newbie too. But in relation to airsoft, we were all new to this sport at one point in our lives, and we knew nothing about our beloved sport. We all probably asked stupid questions and got upset when someone called us an a$$hat or told us to use the search function. At one point, we were all ignorant airsoft newbies and we can't deny that.

But the real reason I'm writing this is to give them a little credit (at least where it is due). Sure, there are some n00bs we wish had never heard of airsoft. They either make the sport look bad, or bother the heck out of everyone until they eventually get banned. They're the know-it-alls and the kind of n00bs who give other newbs bad advice. Some are the kind of noobs who like to sit back and read the forums and slowly learn about our sport, while others jump in head first with all of their money without really knowing what's going on yet. There are many kinds of newbs that we see all the time and it's impossible to list them all here.

One thing will always remain constant. They are the future of the sport of airsoft. They are the ones who keep this sport alive and replentish our losses. Each year, players come and players go. Some we are glad to see depart, and others are a sore loss to our community. Noobs we will ALWAYS have.

We should be giving them some credit, and some leway. They're NEW. They're going to ask the question and they're always going to want the right answer, right now! We veterans should respect that and look past their annoying tendencies. We should help guide them and teach them and cultivate them to become a respectible member of our community. I think that to do otherwise is a disservice to them and to us.

It really makes me angry when I see a newbie come onto the forums and get bashed by a bunch of people for saying the wrong thing or asking the wrong question. Those people often leave and never return. It also angers me when newbies act like veterans and try to give out great advice, but instead end up looking like tools. There really isn't any way to police that, and I've accepted these facts by rolling my eyes and thinking "Why God, why???", but it's all in good fun.

And fun is what Airsoft is about. We don't go out to the field to be pissed of and angry at the world. We go out to have fun, relieve stress, talk with our friends, relax and whatever else you do. In the end, it's simply about the fun factor and the thrill of the hunt.

So the next time you see a newbie ask a completely inane question, don't flame him, help him. Keep his interest alive, and respect the new players as you would want everyone else to respect you. As annoying as they can sometimes be, they're just like you once were, and they're going to be the next wave of players out of the field, and at least that's something to look forward to.

Darkstar out.


Thus ends my original topic.

Unfortunately, the previous thread went off topic quickly and devolved into a flame war, and thus brings up new points to expand upon when explaining Newbies.

Newbies, who are new to a community, are often looking for quick acceptance and assimilation into the community; a collective some might say (All Hail Locutus of Borg). When they aren’t assimilated as fast and they themselves expect, they are often quick to anger and retaliate by starting flame wars and calling people names. Of course, this is not always true, and not all newbies get mad and start flaming. Age and maturity has a lot to do with it as well, and I don’t expect the same level of behavior from someone who is 12 compared to someone who is 30. There will be obvious differences. I’ve also seen plenty of people in their 30’s and 40’s act like complete idiots, so trust me when I say that there can always be anomalies. But I’ve noticed fairly specific behaviors that are often directly associable to newbies that cannot be denied.

Common newbie activity includes over-active posting. By this I mean a single person who posts multiple questions in quick succession, sometimes the same questions, sometimes not, and often in multiple forums. I see this as their logical attempt to get answers to their questions quickly (and thus accelerate their acceptance into the community), but it usually causes both users and moderators much frustration because it is sometimes seen as Spamming. A perfect example is recently there was a newbie who posted 5 or 6 topics in a row in the General Discussion here on Airsoft Ohio. He also posted other threads under other forum headings as well, and some of his questions were very similar. Personally, I don't feel he needed to plaster the boards with posts as all of the questions he asks could have been asked in one or two threads, but, this is typical newbie activity. It would have made more sense to consolidate all the posts under one topic, but not everyone thinks like me. I know he got warned by the Moderators, and that’s exactly what should happen.

Another common newbie activity is posting in threads when they really have nothing to say. "LoL", "Haaaahahaha!!", "Sweet!!" and other thread responses contribute in no way to the thread or the forum. This is a perfect example of posts that should be community deleted. The only place for these posts would be the off-topic forum where anything reasonable is acceptable and I don’t have a problem with it there.

Yet another thing that screams "I'M NEW!!!" is when people start to reply to a thread, but end up getting way off topic by the end of their post. I believe this is called Thread Hijacking. Perfect example was the first N00bs thread I posted prior to I asking the community moderators to delete all of the non-relevant replies. Unfortunately, since they were deleted, I can’t refer to them now. I had made the post with the serious intentions of bringing understanding to my topic, not to spit in people’s faces or flame newbies just for being new. The thread was quickly hijacked and I asked the Mods to intervene and delete the posts that did not contribute to the thread. Spiralling off topic usually results in a flame war of some sort as it did in my case. Flame wars come in many ferocity levels, some worse, some not. These kinds of hijacking, off-topic responses often insult the original message in some way or another which contributes to the flaming. Hey, disagreements happen, but one needs to be constructive in their criticism and not destructive. When posts begin their out of control spin, just start community deleting replies and get rid of the junk replies.

Lastly, when all else fails, there is the Newbie who just doesn’t get it. Try as we might, they just don’t see the light. Perfect example was my previous post. You can check it out here:

http://www.airsoftohio.com/showthrea...threadid=11019

Unfortunately, most of the replies were “Deleted by Community” now. Good job guys! Hopefully he’ll eventually see the light and be a productive member of Airsoft Ohio.

As I originally said, Newbies are people who are new to our community and who lack the knowledge of airsoft that the more experienced airsofter has. Some will become the future leaders of the airsoft community, many will join the general ranks of players involved in airsoft, and yes, some will become forum fodder. Some will even be banned because they don't know how to behave.

When newbies come to this forum, they should be welcomed no matter who they are, or what kind of newbie mistakes they make. Try as we might to post rules and regulations, I know and understand that most newbies will not read through FAQs and Stickys and things like that prior to posting. They're going to ask a question. And if they do it in a newb'ish way, then instead of being a NAZI about it and saying "YOU HAVE VIOLATE RULE NUMBER 892.003 Sub-rule 27a!!!!!!", you should answer the question and say "Hey, welcome to the forum. I'm glad I could help answer your question, but just be sure to read through the forum rules and sticky's because I noticed that you... blah blahh" and explain things to them. You get the idea. If they tell you to screw off or if they continue newbie behavior, then they're fair game.

I enjoy helping newbies when it is warranted, but I also try to be polite in helping them understand the forum rules and why we do things on Airsoft Ohio like we do. There is nothing wrong with that. And when you're constructive, you're less likely to hurt someone's feelings or make them mad.

One thing that I think might contribute to rewarding good newbie behavior is the underutilized Community Moderation system. This system is the little rating thing at the bottom right of someone's post that allows you to rate the posts. Rate them poorly (Below Average/Delete Me!) and the post may eventually disappear, but if someone makes a good post (regardless if they are a newbie or not)and it gets rated well (Good/Excellent), then you are sending praise to the person's post and increasing their user rating, thus rewarding good and productive posting. In the end, members accumulate points that average out to give a rating between 1 and 5 stars. The more gold stars you have, the better your posts likely are and the more respect you will receive from your peers. It is also a good way to weed out bad posts and let people know when they're not acting on par with community expectations.

There are many things that can help to contribute to good newbie behavior and invite a helpful environment for new airsofters, and this is my attempt to provide them that opportunity. The goal of this thread is not what to do with bad or unruly newbies, but is to discuss constructing and non-constructive behavior and how to overcome it.

Again, DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING POSITIVE TO CONTRIBUTE!!!!! Flaming will not be tolerated and I will rate posts with a DELETE ME if they are off-topic or not in line with the spirit of the thread. I suggestion other readers to do the same. If you've got something good to say, then please step up and say it, but if not, please don't say anything at all!

I hope that we can now continue in a productive manner and help serve the airsoft community and new players alike!!

Darkstar out.
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2006, 10:07 PM
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First, this is by no means an attack or sarcasm so please go easy. The thing I hate most about joining a forum community is that there often seems to be a veteran group that basically knows a lot about the forum and its rules and they are often tired of hearing the same questions over and over again. Yes, there is a search button, and yes people should use it. However, when you are new and excited about a new sport/game and want to post your earthshattering insight/question, that enthusiasm/excitement may lead you to fire off said question before taking the time to do a search. This often leads to a response from said forum veterans that sucks the enthusiasm right out of a person.

The new person meant no harm, but broke a rule(s). The forum veteran is tired of the same silly mistakes and responds accordingly. This can go either way at this point, it can be a teaching moment that the forum veteran may repeat many times a day or it can be an attack that lets the forum veteran vent frustration and let the new person's foolishness serve as an example for the next fool who invokes retribution.

I am not a Moderator so I can not know your pain. I am a noob (I hate the word as it basically allows the veteran forumer to operate from a position of moral superiority) to your forum and I figure that your years as a veteran forumer have made it difficult to understand/remember my pain as the new guy.

New people are going to keep coming here. You can be patient and teach them or you can act out in frustration and attack them. One choice makes the forum a better place, the other doesn't.
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:51 PM
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Re: N00bs: Thread Ver. 2.0

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
It really makes me angry when I see a newbie come onto the forums and get bashed by a bunch of people for saying the wrong thing or asking the wrong question. Those people often leave and never return. It also angers me when newbies act like veterans and try to give out great advice, but instead end up looking like tools. There really isn't any way to police that, and I've accepted these facts by rolling my eyes and thinking "Why God, why???", but it's all in good fun.
I nearly posted in reference to this quote above in your last thread. As you point out there will always be newbies. Our ultimate goal should be to assimilate them into the community. One major factor to me, and you've hinted at this in the above quote, is the behavior of said community. We as the community should act in a respectable manner. Or maybe in better words act in way that we would like to be treated if we were newbs. AO has come leaps and bounds since I first got on these forums in how it take measures to reduce the stereotypical newb dribble (is this gun good? etc). Recently I have seen several instances where individuals who may or may not be newbs themselves (depends on the basis of newb measurement) have either passed out bad information, started flinging insults, or be someone other than the first person in the thread to say 'use the search button'. With some of these individuals, I've seen them emulate the "big boys" that treated them in a similiar manner when they joined. So my stance on it is this, we need to monitor responses in newb-type threads, and all threads, to reduce the type of behavior/responses that we as a community dont want or need. Hopefully that'll curve out some unwanted/non-productive behavior.
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:56 PM
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It doesn't have to be this way

As a recent addition to both airsoft and this forum, I can honestly say that I have to agree with Loki's stance (to an extent) on the subject.
Quote:
The information and rules are already there, and ultra-easy to find, it's just that people refuse to look for them/it.

If people are too lazy to look for the information themselves, they are unworthy of help, and should be flushed out of the community. I heard a wise man on these boards once say "I help those that help themselves", and I will continue to live by this mantra.

I will not hold people's hands and help them if they don't help themselves, because they will never learn. If you do this, they will be forever reliant on you to help them find things, and this teaches bad habits. This will in turn cause all of the veterans to leave (which will cause a rapid loss of information and knowledge), and AO will be flooded with lazy idiots.
When I first joined this site, I made it a point to be as clear and concise as possible with my speech. I also used the search function, both here and on the web in general, to try and find the answers to all of my questions. I found answers for most of them, but there were a few left unanswered. The answers to the first two are information that I have yet to find outside of that thread, and I actually wasn't as clear as I wanted to be with the third question, but it got straightened out.

My point is this: to me, representing myself as intelligent, mature, and willing to learn/listen is a matter of personal pride. That is how I want to be viewed by others, therefore that is how I (try) to behave. In my humble opinion, a person who refuses to behave in the manner expected by the community is showing that they have no respect for themselves and less for the community.

However, I DO believe that everyone is entitled to a few baby steps. Not everyone will exercise caution before posting, and that is to be expected. It should also be expected that he/she will correct his/her behavior after being shown the error of their ways. If they refuse, that is the point where I join Loki's camp.

Now, this next part is something that normally would be posted in the Site Suggestions & Announcements subforum, but I feel that in this context it is appropriate. I do not know much about computers, so I do not know how feasible this is, so bear with me. When a user joins a group on Yahoo, an email is automatically sent to the user's mail account containing group information. What I propose is an automatic email that is sent to each new user containing the forum rules and guidelines, a link to the search page here on AO, and perhaps a list of experienced airsofters/users who have volunteered to field simple questions through PMs (similar to gertrude's idea). An email titled "Important Airsoft Ohio Information" goes a long way towards removing the excuses that "I didn't see the search button," or "I didn't see the forum rules." If someone is too lazy to read their email, then God save them from the banhammer.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:44 PM
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Re: Re: N00bs: Thread Ver. 2.0

Quote:
Originally posted by Decoy
I nearly posted in reference to this quote above in your last thread. As you point out there will always be newbies. Our ultimate goal should be to assimilate them into the community. One major factor to me, and you've hinted at this in the above quote, is the behavior of said community. We as the community should act in a respectable manner. Or maybe in better words act in way that we would like to be treated if we were newbs. AO has come leaps and bounds since I first got on these forums in how it take measures to reduce the stereotypical newb dribble (is this gun good? etc). Recently I have seen several instances where individuals who may or may not be newbs themselves (depends on the basis of newb measurement) have either passed out bad information, started flinging insults, or be someone other than the first person in the thread to say 'use the search button'. With some of these individuals, I've seen them emulate the "big boys" that treated them in a similiar manner when they joined. So my stance on it is this, we need to monitor responses in newb-type threads, and all threads, to reduce the type of behavior/responses that we as a community dont want or need. Hopefully that'll curve out some unwanted/non-productive behavior.
Good post Decoy. This is the kind of response I'm looking for.

And in response, I would like to go back to what I said about the Community Moderation system where people can vote on user posts based on the quality of the post. If you see newbies posting bad info, or if they're slamming other n00bs about using the search function, etc, then don't feel bad for rating them poorly. When their posts start getting deleted by the community, they might stop and rethink their reasoning when it comes to posting useless information.

This won't work for everyone since there will always be those people who just don't "get it", and they'll keep posting useless garbage until their user rating gets so low that they'll get warned by Moderators that if they continue, their account will be suspended or banned. But again, if people use the Community Moderation system and don't abuse it, then the community will send a clear message to those who continue to either violate the rules or continue to look like idiots by sharing bad info. Luckily this isn't incredibly common, but it does happen.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yasuragi
My point is this: to me, representing myself as intelligent, mature, and willing to learn/listen is a matter of personal pride. That is how I want to be viewed by others, therefore that is how I (try) to behave. In my humble opinion, a person who refuses to behave in the manner expected by the community is showing that they have no respect for themselves and less for the community.

However, I DO believe that everyone is entitled to a few baby steps. Not everyone will exercise caution before posting, and that is to be expected. It should also be expected that he/she will correct his/her behavior after being shown the error of their ways. If they refuse, that is the point where I join Loki's camp.
To tackle both opinions in one tackle, I don't see it as a problem if someone is mature and responsible when posting for the first few times, and I've always felt that is a primary reason to give newbies some slack. Yes, they're new to this forum and will obviously need time to learn how things work here, so if they stumble a little, that's okay. That's where the good members can help them out and put them on the right track.

Good posts guys!

Darkstar out.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:10 AM
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The problem with telling noobs to use the search feature is that many times, they just don't know what terms to search for to answer the question. Some phrases, acronyms, and words we use are specialized and not readily understood or comprehended by new people.

I'm certainly not excusing noobs for not trying to use the search feature at all, just explaining that they may feel exasperated when they think to themselves "BUT I LOOKED!" and they couldn't find anything. They just don't know how to ask the search question.

By posting in the forum, they can at least explain what they want and hopefully we can understand what it is they need.

My personal feeling is: if you feel like answering the question, do so.

It would be nice to have a newbie faq with more specific information (addendum to dumborat's), but that takes time and effort. It doesn't guarantee the removal of the same old questions.

As said before, I think the secret to newbie acceptance is for them to communicate in a clear and intelligent manner. We all know we're more willing to help someone who took time to ask the question instead of jumbling a bunch of letters together.

Unfortunately, as the internet generation gets older and gets into Airsoft- we'll face a higher amount of kids raised on IM culture. This means these kids are raised on a slew of informal communication mediums- especially Instant Messaging (AIM, Yahoo) and Text Messaging (cell phone). For the sake of brevity and speed, a highly informal language has developed and this is the only way the kids know how to communicate in written language. It gets so bad as they use this in writing papers in school and wonder why they get bad grades. I digress.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:54 AM
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The problem of not knowing the terms to search for can be rectified, but it would take Locutus' doing, I believe. A link to the Airsoft Canada Glossary in the email I mentioned above (if possible) and/or on the search page itself would increase terminology awareness. The problem as I see it is that many people may not even be AWARE that there is terminology or proper names for the things they want to know about.

But this all goes back to my point before: AO helps those who help themselves (to modify a common cliche).

EDIT: To those who may have objections to behaving maturely here on Airsoft Ohio, let me put it this way. If you wanted to join the United States Marine Corps, you would have to abide by their rules and regulations. If you wanted to become a member of the clergy, you would be expected to follow the principles laid down in the Bible. If you want to be part of Airsoft Ohio, you are expected to folow the rules and guidelines. Being a member here is not your God-given right as a U.S. citizen, but a priviledge. And freedom of speech does not apply here. This is a privately owned and operated forum that can tell you what is acceptable and what is not. You are free to express yourself only using your own resources. The administrators and moderators here are free to restrict your speech using their resources.
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Last edited by Yasuragi; 07-20-2006 at 11:37 AM.
  #8  
Old 07-21-2006, 01:19 AM
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I figured I would give my input, seeing as how I am a moderator and have to deal with this issue almost every time I log into this site.

Darkstar, I agree with everything you have said. I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon, but you basically stated how I feel better than I can say myself. I have always been willing to help out people new to the sport. Heck, my AIM account has at LEAST 50-60 people on there that have contacted me randomly from AO for help with whatever problem or question they had. I may not have a lot of time to help out new players as much as I would like to, but my screen names are listed in my profile. Anyone who is a member on here may contact me with any problems they may have. If it is drastic enough, I will even give out my phone number or arrange for a personal meeting if you are in my area and need help with something.

On the other side, if you are going to post here, you need to read the rules and follow them reasonably. I do understand that not everyone wants to become a regular member on here and get into the forums on a serious level, which is fine. I understand that some brilliant and knowledgeable people suffer from dyslexia and might not be able to post with efficient grammar or spelling, which is fine too. I understand some people are just in general not cut out for written language and have problems conveying what they are trying to say in a typed format. I understand that everyone slips up and breaks a rule or crosses the line every now and then. I understand the want to fit into the community of the hobby, sport or activity that you enjoy.

I also understand the need for rules, structure and discipline against violators of our policies. I also understand that holding a new player's hand through research and spoon feeding them everything results in a lazy, uncontributive burden that makes veterans roll their eyes in disgust when they read their less-than-acceptable posts. I also understand the need for moving forward and turning what would be green, newbie players into knowledgeable and contributive members, who would go on to pass on the knowledge and wisdom they have accumulated to another generation of newbie players.

I try my best to find a middle ground in all of this. If someone has just shy of 10 posts or so and posts without doing a search or violates a rule, slamming them puts you in the wrong IMO. Its that elitist attitude towards new members, some of who have never even posted on forums before, that kills the potential for great, contributive members that they could have been. I can remember some of the VERY stupid things that I was even guilty of. My first 50 posts on here were trash, plain and simple. I didn't search much at first, I said some things in public that embarass me still and some things through PM that I wish I could take back. I was a cocky kid who put over 1k into a P90 with a box mag, grenade launcher, RIS, silencer, upgraded battery and extended stock. All that money without even opening the gearbox. I can remember breaking a 220 dollar Infinity because I took it apart and was too inexperienced at the time to simply re-assemble it. You want to know how noobish I was? My first BDU pattern I bought was urban...URBAN of all things while I was going to be playing in the woods. I wasted over 500 bucks on spring guns alone (Which still turns my stomach to this day) because as a kid I couldn't save a dime to save my life.

So yeah, I've done some very stupid, noobish things, which is probobly why I am so willing to help out new players and make sure they don't repeat the mistakes I made getting into airsoft - at least to the magnitude I did.

However, you have those few, like Darkstar has spoken so well, that will never get the point and will continue to break rule after rule, type in incoherent babble, bash others and take out their own insecurity, ignorace, stupidity and overstock of teenage angst (and sometimes adult angst). Couple this with testosterone, anonymity and an internet connection and you will inevitably have your fair share of asshats. Their numbers will only grow as our sport expands. It is my wish to weed these members from the community, as they not only annoy and aggrivate others with their repeated defiance, bad attitudes or just outright not getting it. They also risk giving other members bad advice, turning out more idiots like themselves as they get their friends into the sport and become a bad influence...or in the worst case scenario, do something stupid or illegal with an airsoft gun. Can you imagine the reprocussions of what would happen if a member of our community did something like this and word got out? It could very well destroy or heavily damage our community which so many over the past few years have worked so hard to build and progress.

I understand the need to help newbies, as I said, and I am willing to help ANYONE with ANY problem or question they may have. However, if you repeatedly post garbage, break rule after rule and do not get the point after many posts and warnings, and I or any of my colleagues think you are a danger to our community and risk keeping AO from moving forward in a positive manner, you will be dealt with.

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Old 07-23-2006, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by elmariachi227
Unfortunately, as the internet generation gets older and gets into Airsoft- we'll face a higher amount of kids raised on IM culture. This means these kids are raised on a slew of informal communication mediums- especially Instant Messaging (AIM, Yahoo) and Text Messaging (cell phone). For the sake of brevity and speed, a highly informal language has developed and this is the only way the kids know how to communicate in written language. It gets so bad as they use this in writing papers in school and wonder why they get bad grades. I digress.
I think this phenomenon is why we need to enforce the rules on proper writing; or, at least we should be supportive of "standardized English" (as someone who has studied multiple languages and linguistics I mean to make those quotes quite prominent) and English as it is taught in schools within Western civilization. We as a community are a product of school-taught English, and as a community we share that codex as our form of communication. For me it goes back to the idea of respect: proper use of grammar and spelling contributes to a collective identity within our subculture, and any deviation from the 'norm,' in this case, the use of standard English with some natural error, shows a lack of respect not only for our subculture, but our American culture as well. Call me old-fashioned, but I still believe that these skills are imperative for understanding- without them, we would not be able to understand terms and phrases used in the technologically-influenced youngster's subculture, and miscommunication would occur.

In other words, I think that the English we usually use on the boards is good, and anyone who doesn't use it because of laziness is disrespecting us because we can't understand them. (Just for the sake of clarity, you see.)
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