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  #26  
Old 11-15-2007, 11:18 AM
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No.

emphasis on IF there was for snipers.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:12 PM
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I tend to agree that the sniper role in airsoft is useless. I would much rather have a long barreled AEG shooting 400, then a bolt action shooting 500. In my experience the difference in range that a sniper might have is extremely minimal. Also I agree with OSCAR %100 about not feeling getting hit. When I am in the woods, fully geared up, its honestly hard to feel a hit when someones shooting at you from very far away, I usually rely on the sound of the BB snapping off my gear. However, when your moving through dense brush and thicket it would be almost impossible to hear a BB hit you. I think the best role for a sniper (if you had to choose) in airsoft is with the squad and not on their own, that way when difficult shots come up that are not at long distances an accurate long barreled powerful gun is extremely advantageous.
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  #28  
Old 11-16-2007, 09:01 PM
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i have been a sniper for about three years. i had an upgraded ca m24 that was shooting 535 fps. honestly i was left wanting. I would have the problem stated in the beginning of shooting and seeing it hit in my scope and not getting the kill. Then i was sighting in my gun with my teammate inferno, and his aeg is shooting around 400. My gun only outranged him by maybe twenty feet, which in airsoft is a matter of running to the next tree. The sniper role is important in airsoft for recon only in my opinion. I have recently sold my rifle and picked up an m4 that i have upgraded with an m16 barrel and stronger gearbox. its shooting 390 and i don't notice enough of a difference between this gun and my rifle to warrant spending the outrageous amount of money on a sniper rifle. i intend to keep my sniper role but use an aeg instead.

so long story short, sniping with a sniper rifle in airsoft is, more often than not, very unsatisfying and frustrating. i wouldn't recommend a sniper rifle but i would recommend the sniper position. In airsoft its just not as effective of a tool as in real life. my 2 cents

also i agree with the spotter idea previously stated. i have had inferno as my spotter and it makes sniping more interesting. I also think that the classification of sniper/spotter should just be a role designation instead of based on equipment. What i mean is, you don't have to have a sniper type rifle to be a sniper/spotter group. this classification could be geared towards the players with sniper mentality, and can be used for small recon elements. I plan on keeping my designation and operating as recon and special forces. the rifle doesn't make the sniper. you can be a sniper with a pistol if you really want to. 90% of sniping in my opinion, is knowing how to move silently and being able to go where others can't unnoticed. if you do this with an aeg then you are still a sniper in my eyes.
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  #29  
Old 11-16-2007, 09:04 PM
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The only way a bolt action rifle will have the need in the field is if they can outrange any other guns. When I say outrange, I mean far enough so the sniper can move away (even if he has to run) without being shot in the back. Now some of you will say real life sniper stay concealed. Of course, they are 500 yards away (record shots were done further than 1.6 miles away). If you throw a semi auto rifle against a bolt action, the SA might not be able to reach as far as the BA BUT with its semi auto capability, can easily lob several rounds few inches higher to reach the extra 50-75ft away. In real life, such shots would end up lost in the wood. In airsoft, it is only a matter of 250-300ft away... Furthermore, a SAW gunner only have to shoot 10secs or so to saturate 250ft away. If players are not willing to give a true FPS superiority to the sniper ( example: 600fps bolt action at 475-500fps semi auto), you do not need bolt action in the field.

Now that we eliminate the weapon (bolt action) from the equation, what is left to say about the sniper? Snipers usually work in pair (Spotter). If you are staying with your team or are simply doing long shot shooting, you are filling a DMR role. 90% of the snipers and semi auto rifle are use for their high fps rifle to engage long shot targets. Meaning most event organizers and or CO needs DMR, not snipers.

In real life, snipers have hours and days, if not weeks to get the job well done. They will walk/run/fly/drive great distance in full concealment mode just to make sure the job will be done as efficiently as possible. In airsoft, if you have missions longer than 4 hours, you are in good shape. In airsoft, targets and objectives are not static; they move, they change and most importantly, they end before the sniper get the job done. In real life, snipers WILL BE ON THEIR OWN for long period of time. In airsoft, the field and the number of players on the field render the concealment and the stealth period very short. In real life, the sniper gathers information. In airsoft, they hardly get enough time to take position, how could they have time to take position, get intel, return back with such intel and finish the mission?

In real life, when a sniper shoot a target down, that target will be dead, in airsoft, no way to 100% confirm if the said sniper actually hit the target or it is not someone else who shot at the same time or if the target even fell the hit. In real life, snipers use the nature and their ghillie suit to hide. In airsoft, ghillie are too hot and get caught everywhere ( ). Shortly said, the airsoft world does not provide the time, the terrain or the tasks to any snipers out there. The action is going so fast that even DMRs need to be quick if they want to fulfill their own task....a good SAW gunner can handle the job long time before the DMR get on site.

Ok, so if we eliminated the weapon of choice, the role, the field, the time and the tasks for a sniper, I don't see why a sniper should be used in airsoft.

Few things I learned from the past and from various men;
- team Strikers are moving too quick to use snipers. DMR yes, but even so.
- If you are not willing to play alone and without any team attachment, don't be a sniper.
- At 300ft, you better have an awesome ghillie suit if you think you can start popping players and go unnoticed.
- Anyone can gather intelligence much faster than any snipers in the airsoft world.

FYI, I saw the real use for snipers at Lion Claw event, which was played on a 4 hours time slot on a 7000 acres field. guys were used as intel gatherer, full ghillie suit and worked in pair. Very good role...but after the event, they said they would not do it again....go figure.
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Last edited by Blade; 11-16-2007 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:43 PM
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Your point about airsoft being fast-paced had me thinking.

The reason airsoft is so fast-paced is because of the way organizers set up their events. Organizers try to cram a whole campaign into an 8-hour period. Teams are given a load of objectives, which they scramble frantically to complete. The result is a compressed version of what true milsim should be. Everything gets sped up. Firefights are more frequent. Snipers don't have the time they need to be effective.

The solution is games that aren't micro-managed. Take away the emphasis on point tallies and prefab objectives (organizers shouldn't be dictating objectives anyway!). Provide each team with assets and territory. Plant props to use and items to acquire. Put the teams on the field and set them against each other. Objectives will be set by the CO's and the outcome will be unique every time. Now you have a reason to have snipers and to send out reconnaissance elements. You have to gather intel instead of having a detailed map magically handed to you. Organizers need to release their stranglehold and let events happen like they do in real war. It would give a more rounded milsim experience to players and allow the sport to breathe in ways it hasn't before.
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  #31  
Old 11-16-2007, 10:00 PM
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Oscar, while I do agree with what you say, I have to mention something. organizers don't always do things because they want to. They do it because players would not show up otherwise. We can talk about 48 hours as much as we want, not many players can handle it. Furthermore, fields are usually not suited to for such events.

hy/I played in the mountains of France during a full 24 hours event and the first thing I noticed is players could not keep playing after midnight. Call it bored, tired or simply afraid, the result is the same. ASKY put up an event every year of that nature and from what I heard, the drop ratio is freakin huge.

So let me ask you this; If players already know what they are getting into, why most of them keep dropping even if they knew they would have to handle long mission periods? even events like Irene or any other JL event do not get at least 75% commitment from the players.

It would be nice having true mislim event but it will most likely not being fulfilled by the so-call milsim players when time will come.
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  #32  
Old 11-16-2007, 11:03 PM
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Talking

(By the way, I edited my previous post to better explain my point)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade
We can talk about 48 hours as much as we want, not many players can handle it.

I know I'd do it, but I know the average player isn't like that. People just don't take it seriously as I do I guess.

Ok, compromise then. Don't expand the event time, just take a different approach. Make the CO's decide what objectives to go after instead of trying to script the event from start to finish. It would be nice to have an 8 hour event that puts the intelligence gathering and planning solely in the hands of the CO's. That means objectives the CO might pick may not be the ones the organizers intended. Thus is the beauty of what milsim should be. How do you tally up points for objectives you have no control of? Simple--you don't. You wait and see what the outcome is at the end of the op. Whoever has control wins the war. It might be a stalemate, you never know.

It may seem like I'm suggesting organizers turn events into generic A against B, but I'm not. There are so many creative ways to make each event unique without scripting and micro-managing it to death. The biggest factor I see affecting the sniper role (among others) is that organizers force events to be so fast-paced (by design) that many of the elements we should be seeing come to fruition never do. Let the milsim flow, you're stifling it for God sakes.
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  #33  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:32 AM
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It would be nice having true mislim event but it will most likely not being fulfilled by the so-call milsim players when time will come.
How would any organizer know if they only tailor events to attract players? I've heard this same argument for years "We can't make it more "milsim" (blech!) because players can't handle it..

If you mean "We won't be able to find 100+ players to handle it, then you may be right. But why should the people that want the most realism have to suffer because of all the videosofters that wanna have mega trigger time, and brag about this body counts?

For way too long people have confused a "good" event with an event that has alot of players.

I'd rather share the field with a small number of like-minded players that don't care about blasting away and running back from respawn than I would share the field with several hundred "milsim" players that are primarily interested shooting everything in sight.

It's funny, we've got this huge number of airsofters in Ohio, but someone is always saying what all those players are "ready for" or not ready for.. I remember some of the first events at Springfield where the challenge was "now we'll see how much players can handle." and then, when players stayed out in the field all day without breaks, apparently the message wasn't received. How many times have events in Ohio had a sudden drastic change in weather, and even then, you almost have to harpoon some players to get them off the field..

"Players arent ready for______" is a BS excuse, challenge players with realism, throw down the gauntlet and see actual results instead of simple forecasting results.
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  #34  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:53 AM
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The real problem is the community is not stable. What you accomplish one day can be destroyed the next one. Mentality changes all the time. How many real teams have we seen going out for good? If teams can't stay together, how can we expect the other players or the community enjoy a new system? How many website dedicated to milsim went up and down since few years?

great ideas but not many guys to keep them active...
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  #35  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:23 AM
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I can definitely see everyone's point of view here, and this is one of those topics where there is no "right or wrong", "black and white" answer. I've been heavily involved in the hosting of a few events and I've participated in countless others, so I've experienced both sides. One major problem with hosting an event with a very small turnout is you tend to lose a lot of money, especially if you have to rent a field and buy props, etc. If you plan on hosting events on a regular basis, you can't really do that too often. Unfortunately, if you want to attempt to stay out of the red, you have to please the masses. I'm not saying that I disagree with Oscar or AlphaSix at all. I'm just saying its not as easy as it sounds.

As for the sniper thing I personally am a bit of a romantic about the role and I think it should still have a place. However, realistically what everyone else said about it is true. Not only does an airsoft sniper have to be very dedicated, patient, and talented, but they also have to be used correctly by whoever is in command. I think that 99% of the people who are "snipers" shouldn't be and I normally try to talk interested people out of the role. That is including myself, which is why I'm a spotter.

About the FPS limits, I really like the idea of different limits for different weapon types, and I would support taking bolt action rifles to 600fps. That is of course, dependant on regulation of who gets to use a rifle that hot. I think they should have to complete some sort of training to show without a doubt that they know what they're doing and they can handle it safely.
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  #36  
Old 11-18-2007, 09:29 PM
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"The real problem is the community is not stable. What you accomplish one day can be destroyed the next one. Mentality changes all the time. How many real teams have we seen going out for good? If teams can't stay together, how can we expect the other players or the community enjoy a new system? How many website dedicated to milsim went up and down since few years?

great ideas but not many guys to keep them active..."



What do we expect when we are all too busy trying to kill eachother? I hear it every year: just like i heard it every year at college. " Look at all this fresh meat" you guys know what i mean. Every year more people join. Games are getting bigger. And every year i hear that they degrade the sport.

It's not their fault it's ours. We have failed as old timers to set a proper example. I speak of politics gentlemen. In realation to gathering a group of guys together to play this game hard core..It's what we all want.. The best they can that day. A kingdom of heaven, where the rules are never perfect but the players make up for it.

There are two political parties in airsoft. Those that want to unite the state: William wallace party and those that want to be left to do their own thing: Glory party. This creates a game.

Something so simple as hey let's all have a great milsim day. Someone bring the fake c4 and i'll work on some mortars.. can anyone bring dessert. Can't be done. We're a bunch of dudes who have known eachother at least the 4 years i've been playing and we're not at that level.

It's like a girl you've been dating for 7 years and you can't get past 2nd base on a date. We spend all our time draining eachother like a bunch of suckupusses. Why should i make a web video for blades sorry ***...

There should be a forum where milsim based teams. Teams willing to put forth an effort; to cut the ****. Where games can be proposed and voted on. then we simply attend.

Or we vote on a rules and create our own rule set.

but it won't work cause someone won't want to volunteer a field. Or drive to that particular place. Or they will resent another team on the forum and not go. Or, wll get overly involved and attached to a way of thinking. They will boycott. Or they are in the Glory part and could care less.

After all isn't the best part about this game (and partly why its a game) is that it changes.

it doesn't matter what rule set you pick. If there was an airsoft game and the attending teams were . strikers black eagle tac 08th 97th 6mm bstab ronin 91st etc there. You could figure out what you wanted to do once you got their and still have a good time.

Let's just **** or Fight you know?

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  #37  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:44 AM
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If we're going for milsim here lets go across the board. FPS and class number limits.

So say given your typical large event at 200 in attendance. Thats 100 men per side... so each side gets one and only one sniper.

Done.

How's that sound? (That sounds real *****ty to all the sniper wannabes you can be sure)

Because if we're being realistic you'd have 1 support gun per every four man fire team, or in the above scenario that'd be 100/4 or 20 support guns per side. And that doesn't happen that I see at events, and I pay attention to the numbers of SAWs at games, at best we're approaching 1 in 12. But in reality if you're opening 1 sniper slot per 100 men you're still overshooting reality by several orders of magnitude. Whats that mean? That means for counting every boots-on-the-ground, front line infantry man there sure as ***** isn't 1 sniper in every crowd of 100. Except in fantasyland.

So, while support gunners on squads by necessity promote teamwork and tactics (you have to work with them for them to be effective, you have to work together to overcome them, and lone gunmen support gunners are big fat walking dead targets) whereas piling snipers into the roster promotes what? Lone gunman non-teamwork. What are we after here?

BTW- I'm all for lowering the SAW fps to AEG range (ala 400). But I know its going to have the opposite effect I imagine it's proponents are wanting: more SAWs, firing more rounds, and lasting alot longer. With hte added bonus of the action drawn in tighter. Bring it on! I'm all for that - there needs to be more suppression and maneuver under fire and squadlike tactics in airsoft. And less lone guys out there plinking.

I don't know about you but I get a chubby being in the middle of a big fat intense firefight. Drama. Action. Adrenalin. The sounds! The visuals! Compared to that, getting sniped while on a nature hike is about as exciting as a gnat flying up my nose. woo

But then, we want less bbs flying thru the air at our events, right? Because somehow that is newb and bad... yes, less intense firefights is definitely what airsoft needs.


Meanwhile - I'd like less horsepower for my cars, fewer rings in my cigars, less alcohol in my liquor, smaller boobs on my pole dancers, and for god's sake less shooting at airsoft games please.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:05 AM
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Hillslam, if your squad is given an objective to complete which is prefered.

1.completing the objective while laying waste to other squads

2.completing an objective without having to make contact with the enemy.

As far as how many snipers would realistically be counted for in a group of 100... There is no answer for that because alot of us don't attempt to emulate us troops.

Milsim does not = US Army.

It's not that i want my stripper to have little tits. Its' that i don't want her to be a cheap mustache having she beast that only looks good on watered down tequila.

lo mags = less ammo floating around.. But i think that it has greatly increased the playability and "chubby" factor of the game.

If a sniper kills you it is not his intension to give you a thrill. It was his intention to get a thrill out of you (while accomplishing his objective). Your thrill would have been using the tactics you spoke of to avoid said sniper.

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Old 11-21-2007, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaSix View Post
Sure, I could have posted this in another section of the site, but the real meat and potatoes of the post has to do with realism/milsim/etc.

My question is "Are snipers still valid on the airsoft field? Or have they been replaced by Support Gunners?"

I'll expand on that

I have first hand experience, and have heard enough similar stories that all have the same common thread, that being a sniper taking a shot, from far far away, and clearly seeing a BB impact a player, the player jerk, look around completely surprised, and then just carry on like nothing happened.
I don't mean to suggest that everyone who has done this is knowingly cheating, most players associate three of their senses in determining when they've been hit. Most of the time you hear firing that is quickly followed up with feeling the hit(s) and then seeing the person that shot you. Thats just how it goes most of the time. Most times it only takes two of those senses for people to call the hit, hearing and feeling is enough, if you don't see the person that shot you, you can assume they are close enough to you to know they also heard the hits, clearly saw you react to the shot(s) and are standing by to deliver more plastic in the event you suddenly catch a case of "I didn't feel its".
But the sniper, the guy that snuck all the way across the field, the guy thats usually covered in burs and is soaking wet in more than a few places gets more frustrated than any other player on the field when he sees all that hard work go for nothing because the person he nailed in the middle of the chest from a couple hundred feet away didn't hear the shot, didn't see the shooter, and therefore must not have felt that magical BB.
Most people say "Just shoot him again." and that works in most AEG type engagements, but not as often with the sniper. He may be the only bad-guy in the area, and it may be a looong way back to re-spawn (Springfield?). Plus, the sniper usually takes getting shot much more personally than the rest of the people with the AEG's, so it's not as easy to just 'light someone up till they call the hit'
This leads me to the question I asked previously.
A support Gunner with a M249 Mk2 shooting 450fps, with a tight-bore barrel doesn't have quite the same range as the sniper, but he has an incredible amount of firepower, and he can send BBs a loong way down range. In fact, the support gunner (rightfully) has more firepower than any other single person on the airsoft field, and his gun will shoot harder, and in a more sustained manner than all those other players. So does the support gunner take the place of the frustrated sniper with the single shot rifle that sees one victim after another simply shrug off that shot they didn't hear?

I hope not.

Last night I asked Blade this same question, I started it off with asking what spring-platform he'd choose to build his ideal sniper rifle, and then asked if any of it would be worth it because of whats happened so many times in the past. I'll qualify that further and say that not everyone is cheating when they don't call they hit, there's probably plenty of newer players that simply haven't been engaged at long range, and genuinely don't know what to do in those situations.


So...
Has the support gunner replaced the sniper?

Will the support gunner replace the sniper?

What can be done at events to make sure there is always a place on the field for the sniper?
My thoughts:

1. Sniper rifles are a pain in the rear in airsoft. You hit it on the head about people either not knowing or not wanting to call their hits. I sold a cherry $700 Tanaka rifle because of this exactly. The only time I could use it was locally because I could trust people to call out because they knew I was on the field.

2. I disagree with anyone who says that support weapons are just souped up M-16s. Except for the SAW and the RPK really, support weapons use and have traditionally always used heavy caliber rounds. The SAW is quickly being replaced by the M240 in the Army 18th AB Corps because it chambers a 7.62 rd. The SAW was an expensive experiment that failed, and unfortunately the airsoft manufacturers jumped on its doomed band wagon. This argument will be moot when they catch up to real life and start producing the M240 AEG.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:28 PM
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Hillslam, if your squad is given an objective to complete which is prefered.

1.completing the objective while laying waste to other squads

2.completing an objective without having to make contact with the enemy.
1. Its kinda the reason we're carrying guns and not hankerchiefs.

Quote:
As far as how many snipers would realistically be counted for in a group of 100... There is no answer for that because alot of us don't attempt to emulate us troops.

Milsim does not = US Army.
There is an answer. An answer for every military force. And in none of them does it equal 1 in 100. Milsim has military built into the word - and no *military* is built of a force of woods-sneaking bolt-action one-offs.

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It's not that i want my stripper to have little tits. Its' that i don't want her to be a cheap mustache having she beast that only looks good on watered down tequila.
No idea at all what you're talking about
Quote:
lo mags = less ammo floating around.. But i think that it has greatly increased the playability and "chubby" factor of the game.
agreed. never said otherwise.

Quote:
If a sniper kills you it is not his intension to give you a thrill. It was his intention to get a thrill out of you (while accomplishing his objective). Your thrill would have been using the tactics you spoke of to avoid said sniper.
I don't avoid anything. Whenever at all possible. I come to shoot. When I want to avoid people I go for nature hikes.
(Actually, I don't. I ride my cycles. Nature hikes are for pooftas. And snipers.)
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Last edited by Hillslam; 11-21-2007 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:38 PM
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try paintball
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:09 PM
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No need. I get plenty of action and dieing in not being a puss and hiding in airsoft... *zing* Actually a bunch of snipers skulking around hunting each other sans squadmates more resembles deathmatch and paintball than fireteam based combat. You go right ahead and have a ball enjoying that.

So to boil my *opinion* down into one last parting post:
OT was are snipers valid in airsoft? answer: No, and rarely were
OT2 are support gunners the replacement sniper? answer; No, they're completely different and actually a useful contribution to teamplay
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Last edited by Hillslam; 11-21-2007 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 11-21-2007, 09:17 PM
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How many times did you die not being a "puss". A dead guy is a dead guy imo

We'll have to agree to disagree. When you play you lay waste to a bunch of dudes.

When RTA plays we take cos hostage and safety kill a couple dozen dudes. We also like to take out saw gunners who are making too much noise. We hate noise too.

Look i know who you are. You're a real nice dude . But we aren't going to agree on this subject.

HNUG
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Old 11-22-2007, 02:14 PM
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what do hostage taking and safety kills hav to do with sniping?

thats more like special forces up close not sniping from rang what your saying is good getting in close your mixng stealth approach with sniping but i dont think sniping is valueble

i think what you said gets ojbectivs done. what hillslam plays like gets objectives done too. i dont think snipers get objectives don, they just entertaen themselfs.
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holstein View Post
. i dont think snipers get objectives don, they just entertaen themselfs.

And you've accumulated this vast wealth of knowledge before, or after your three posts on this forum?

For the record, we all entertain ourselves on the field, it's just generally hoped that all of that entertaining achieves goals for the force the players are part of. A portion of the original question of this thread was to determine if there were ways to implement sniper-based objectives, they may not have objectives in backyard games, but there's serious potential for them to be used in roles that extend beyond shooting long distance in actual events.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:05 PM
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Dont assume someone needs to post whore on ao to know what the hell they're talking about friend.

Don't need to be a sniper to do recon.

And the discussion looked more like "how do we gank other equipment to artifically elevate the now near worthless in airsoft sniper role" more than "what objectives can we make for snipers". but i'm sure everyone read it differently. Anyone thinks nerfing the SAWs is going to to jack for the sniper role is in for a big disappointment. Sniping was still frustrating and worthless back when all there were was was crappy TOPs rolling about as SAWs.

Her'es why, and none of it to do with SAWs:
1 - concealment = cover
2 - all airsoft bbs lose 97% of their kinetic energy in the first 20'
3 - webbing, gear, clothe, noise all conspires to not detect hits
4 - you can step aside from incoming rounds
5 - dropping 1,2,3,4,5 or more tangos don't matter, we don't count bodies in airsoft
6 - a bolt action isn't going to assault any objective
7 - single bbs don't suppress
etc

But sure we can keep the fps of the saw as the culprit. like hunting red herring. and to reiterate - i am all for lowering saw FPS to 400 or so for the reasons i posted a few posts up. And it'll have nothing zero nada zilch zip to do with restoring the sniper to the vaunted top tier of awesomeness so wrongfully robbed of it by the evil newb cannon saws. it was never there to begin with.
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Last edited by Hillslam; 11-22-2007 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:12 PM
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I think that we can all agree that the current fps limits and bb weight limits for our current sniper rifles give little advantage to the sniper at the event level.

If we want a place for mature and responsible snipers in this game a few things have to happen.

1st. We have to base our fps and bb limits for sniper weapons on two criteria. The first is safety. The second is the desired effective range for snipers. We can make these guns shoot as far as you want, the question is: How far of a distance is necessary to make snipers usefully in our games? After we have a basic idea of the effective range we desire in our sniper rifles, we make a gun that meets that desired range. The engagement distances will then be determined by the actual impact strength of the bb at a distance that will remain safe for players.

The first thing to understand for players is that a gun like this if measured in our traditional crono with 20. will yield a scary FPS. This does not mean that it is unsafe if fired from an appropriate distance. It is true as Hillslam points out, that a bb loses power very quickly after the shot is taken. However it would be VERY unsafe if the shot was taken from inside that safe distance.

That is why I would like to propose this. If we want High FPS and long distance snipers on the field. We NEED some way to regulate this. I think that a snipers certification is a great way to accomplish this. A class would be held that went through all the necessary training to give people the tools to estimate their distances correctly and keep safe on the field. After the class the sniper would be given a card that they could take to games as proof that they are competent with the weapon they are using.
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:24 PM
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Dont assume someone needs to post whore on ao to know what the hell they're talking about friend.
I'd never assume that, we both know there are plenty of folks on this forum with obscene post counts that can largely be attributed to useless posts.

However, when someone with all of three posts, who recently joined the forum, and hasn't established themselves as a credible source of information, I'll assume as much every time.

Last edited by AlphaSix; 11-22-2007 at 09:28 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 11-22-2007, 10:25 PM
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Many are talking about the distinction between snipers and DMRs. This distinction between the two in the current US military has narrowed to an almost unditinguishable gap. There are two schools that these skill warriors can attend. The US Army Sniper School, or the US Army Designated Marksman Course. Both are taught by the same instructors. The USARDMC is basically an accelerated USARSS. Also, when a warrior graduates from the USARSS he is usually reassigned to an infantry or scout unit as a Designated Marksman. Graduates from the USARDMC are sent back to their infantry unit, albeit they are issued a brand new M16A2/4 with a match barrel, trigger, and a very nice Leupold scope mounted on the receiver.

Notice I failed to mention the M24A1/2 SWS. The Army has found that ultra-long range weapons have little use in urban environments. Match M16 series weapons allow for rapid follow up shots without removing your eye from the gunsight, increased magazine capacity, and the ability to accept standard squad ammunition. (As many should know, the M249 S.A.W. fires 5.56 NATO rounds.)

What does this mean? I think that we must now redesign our conceptualiztion of what a modern sniper role has evolved into. In airsoft, those "Designated Marksmen" are in essence snipers. De facto snipers if you will. Interpeting senarios this way, you will realize, as stated above, these sniper/DMRs are actually an integral part of any squad tactics. Give me seven squad members, and a DMR, and I can make almost anything happen.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Black View Post
I think that we can all agree that the current fps limits and bb weight limits for our current sniper rifles give little advantage to the sniper at the event level.

If we want a place for mature and responsible snipers in this game a few things have to happen.

1st. We have to base our fps and bb limits for sniper weapons on two criteria. The first is safety. The second is the desired effective range for snipers. We can make these guns shoot as far as you want, the question is: How far of a distance is necessary to make snipers usefully in our games? After we have a basic idea of the effective range we desire in our sniper rifles, we make a gun that meets that desired range. The engagement distances will then be determined by the actual impact strength of the bb at a distance that will remain safe for players.

The first thing to understand for players is that a gun like this if measured in our traditional crono with 20. will yield a scary FPS. This does not mean that it is unsafe if fired from an appropriate distance. It is true as Hillslam points out, that a bb loses power very quickly after the shot is taken. However it would be VERY unsafe if the shot was taken from inside that safe distance.

That is why I would like to propose this. If we want High FPS and long distance snipers on the field. We NEED some way to regulate this. I think that a snipers certification is a great way to accomplish this. A class would be held that went through all the necessary training to give people the tools to estimate their distances correctly and keep safe on the field. After the class the sniper would be given a card that they could take to games as proof that they are competent with the weapon they are using.

Mr. Black brings up a valid point and I am going to attempt to add my spin to it.

As proposed in the Velocity restrictions thread(s), my plan deals with the MILSIM aspect of the actual weapons and takes in to account with their caliber.

Why not change the Velocity restrictions to include BB weight and Size. It's a simple concept really. Have a table with the limits for each classification and hot damn, you got your self something.

Since the main concept is to replicate caliber (and typically larger caliber bullets travel further with more kinetic energy along a strait path) you need to take into account the weight and size of the projectile. This would mean limiting the weight of the BB's to certain classes. For instance, Bolt action Sniper Rifles (in 6mm) are Restricted to use .3 Gram BB's and Higher and when chronoed, must not chrono faster then 135m/s, 120m/s with .43's ect.


Something else that most players have to realize, getting popped by a guy right at the 100(ish)' MED is going to always happen. I also realize that the velocity limit is going to be comparatively higher then the old limits. But a majority of the community has agreed about changing the classifications, so why not start from the ground up? I think if we carefully re-design the limits and take other varibles in to account we can come up with a system that works quite well and effective at STRICT MILSIM EVENTS.
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