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  #76  
Old 12-03-2012, 08:54 PM
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Someone mentioned limiting BB weight to "keep the Joules down."

Different weight BB's shooting from the same gun will have the same energy.

Assume a .2g BB is fired from a weapon at 400 FPS (121.9 meters/second) and a .25g BB is fired from the same weapon with a 40 FPS loss, or about 360 FPS (109.7 meters/second).

Energy = 1/2 x mass (in Kg) x velocity (in meters/second) squared.

Energy of .20g BB @ 121.9 meters/second = 1/2 x .00020 Kg x 121.9^2 = 1.48J

Energy of .25g BB @ 109.7 meters/second = 1/2 x .00025 Kg x 109.7^2 = 1.50 J

As you can see, the energies are nearly identical. The difference is because I estimated the FPS loss switching from .20g BB's to .25's.

Because of this, having a BB weight restriction wouldn't do anything, and would be impossible to control. Like has been said before, try MED's or mag restrictions.

I don't know much about physics, so if anyone finds something terribly wrong with this, feel free to correct me. I promise not to get butthurt.
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  #77  
Old 12-03-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Universe View Post
TLDR.



Apparently the concept of basic statistics is lost somewhere in this argument. The less you are hit, the lass chance something sensitive will be hit. If little johnny's enormous head makes up 25% of his head, and my AEG's grouping is somehow strangely the exact size of little johnny, I have a 25% chance of hitting him with one round. If I hose him with a whole magazine.... well you get the point. You're rolling the dice a hell of a lot more the more rounds you are shooting.
Because a 300FPS 40RPS gun will saturate a target with a lot of annoying welts while a 450fps 17RPS gun will penetrate skin and bloody the victim. I wasn't aware that I was whining when I made my argument, because at the end of the day the venue's I frequent aren't even posting in this thread. But by all means, be that guy.

Also, heads, they take of 25% of heads
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  #78  
Old 12-03-2012, 08:56 PM
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A heavier BB wil retain more energy at distance... however...


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Because a 300FPS 40RPS gun will saturate a target with a lot of annoying welts while a 450fps 17RPS gun will penetrate skin and bloody the victim. I wasn't aware that I was whining when I made my argument, because at the end of the day the venue's I frequent aren't even posting in this thread. But by all means, be that guy.

Also, heads, they take of 25% of heads
Wasn't specifically at you. I saw that explanation a butt load earlier. Last i actually read this thread was at work. Thus TLDR. I didn't understand broken skin was an issue here. Because i aint got time to bleed. However I though broken teeth and noses were, and last i check it didn't take 400+ to do that.

Last edited by Mothman; 12-03-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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  #79  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:02 PM
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Since the posts Pyro and I made in the Fallen Warriors thread were deleted and I was told to post them here (even though this thread is about controlling ROF at events and not FPS or muzzle energies), I will post my physics lesson here.

E(k)=1/2mv^2

(kinetic energy) equals (one-half) times (mass) times (velocity squared)

The equation uses SI units, so mass is expressed in kilograms (kg) and velocity is expressed in meters per second (MPS). That is,

400 FPS = 121.92 MPS
0.20g = 2*10^-4kg

Therefore, the equation would be written as:

E(k)=1/2(2E-4)(14864.4864) and E(k) comes out to equal 1.48644864 joules (J).

So, if any field owners or event organizers would like to consider limiting the muzzle energies of ACTUAL special cases like PolarStars because they can exploit the "joule creep" phenomenon to a greater extent than conventional AEGs, use this formula. Simply slapping a limit on the maximum weight of BB a player can use is ridiculous and ignorant of basic physics.

**EDIT** Pyro beat me to it and with the right units this time. You will do well in physics, good sir. Time to pull out the ATP:

The one and only thing you will ever truly need in life.

Educate yourselves.

Last edited by Jonezy; 12-03-2012 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Universe View Post
A heavier BB wil retain more energy at distance... however...

Wasn't specifically at you. I saw that explanation a butt load earlier. Last i actually read this thread was at work. Thus TLDR. I didn't understand broken skin was an issue here. Because i aint got time to bleed. However I though broken teeth and noses were, and last i check it didn't take 400+ to do that.
If it wasn't aimed at me then I apologize. It doesn't take much to loose a tooth, but that is personal responsibility. Play in a true CQB environment where fire comes from 8 different directions, all of which is technically semi-auto and try not to take one in the kisser. The same applies when in a heavy firefight outdoors. I've had a friend loose a tooth due to a stray shot from totally unrelated firefight. Should we ban discretion-less fire as well based on the fact that it MIGHT injure someone you didn't see? That pretty much eliminates support fire altogether. Again, you assume the risk when you decide to play. If little Johnny's parents didn't want him getting pelted with BB's like he hypothetically did, then they should have been more proactive in researching the hobby and made a more informed decision.
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Last edited by Spectre; 12-03-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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  #81  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:17 PM
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When did all of this become more than a game and hobby? Like with any hobby or game, technology will always be our greatest gift and curse. With P*'s become more frequent and available there will be a continuing debate on this as well as others to follow. If someone wants to shoot through 10000 bbs a game because their AEG is shooting 40 bps then good for them, but where's the fun in that. I can UP UP DOWN DOWN my way to beating Contra too, but after the first time I no longer want to play the game anymore. I'd rather have some self respect and play this game to have fun.

Now wouldnt tamper tape solve the P* altering problem after chrono? Put some tamper tape on the control to prevent the change for the day and spot check them during the game if there's an issue?
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  #82  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonezy View Post
**EDIT** Pyro beat me to it and with the right units this time. You will do well in physics, good sir.
Quoted for posterity.
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  #83  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:29 PM
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Having read the last three pages, if I'm not mistaken, Blade brought this discussion up as possibly affecting insurance policy.

If a national event is considering implementing limitations, you can bet it will trickle down to the home events/fields who are also covered by insurance.

The underwriters will look for precedence to base their policies for the home fields, and in this case, Lion Claws IS that precedence.

Since right now airsoft insurance policy is largely left up to the players to develop and implement, we ALL need to consider acceptable compromises to performance.

Keep in mind if there is no compromise there could be no hobby or at least no legitimate hobby.

I would think the first step would be for EOs to begin chrono for ROF to get an idea of what the averages are going to be before they can really begin to decide what an acceptable compromise would be.

Next, players need to consider how they can meet these compromise for more than just their personal preference, but with an eye to help create a policy that remains in the hands of the airsofters and not an insurance underwriter who is simply modifying a paintball policy to cover airsoft guns.

Believe me, you want those distinctions unless you want fields to start requiring full paintball masks. Or ya know, no insurance policy available and bye bye to legitimate hobby and back to the back yard free for all.
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  #84  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:48 PM
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Because a 300FPS 40RPS gun will saturate a target with a lot of annoying welts while a 450fps 17RPS gun will penetrate skin and bloody the victim.
Implying that the average player shoots 300FPS with their 40RPS, and not 400FPS and 40RPS. Implying 300FPS cant bloody someone at 40RPS. Implying people play with full auto guns that shoot hotter than 400FPS. Implying that 300FPS is useless unless you can shoot 9001 BB's in an 8 hour period.


After watching this thread it seems that the only people that are against less full auto are people who use an airsoft gun with a really high RPS. No one has talked about trigger response.

What we as a community need to realize is that new players (players who join within the last year and a half-ish) have access to really high RPS guns. What they are lacking is the experience to use these guns properly. This is what causes accident that make insurance rates higher. I don't believe anyone is doubting the guys with high RPS guns that have the experience to use them properly(everyone who is pro high RPS in this thread), what we are saying is you either have to ban it for everyone to keep stupid people from hurting other people, or you have to let it go un moderated and wait for something bad to happen.

So those responsible players, are you willing to use either a lower RPS with FA or just use semi to keep AO's fields running safely? Or are you not willing to play with these rules and do you want it to just run its coarse?

sticks
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  #85  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:54 PM
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You are still asking players to modify their gear. So if nobody wants to change their setup, that just mean asking to limit mags, fps or ROF is silly since nobody want to be told what they can't use with their hard earned money

No, you have my point completely wrong. You can make everyone downgrade their guns and piss everyone off across the board, as well as most likely slash event attendance. Or you could make the people, who think 30 rps at 400 fps is needed, downgrade. Those people are in the minority and its generally they who we complain about. Not those who are responsible enough to know airsoft isnt about hurting people and fps really doesnt mean much of anything as far as whether or not a gun is "good." It depends on who you want to piss off and what you are trying to accomplish. You guys are preaching safety to a level it doesnt need to go. Maybe we should just go to 200fps clear walmart guns or dress up in snow pants and a snow jacket with full head protection in case, god forbid, someone would fall. Airsoft is a game that involves risk. You sign a waiver for a reason. If you cant handle being pelted then dont come out and play.

If you are trying to make it more safe while not pissing everyone off. Do as i suggested, along with many others. Make FPS and ROF proportional.

below 350 fps, no restriction
between 350-400 fps 22 rps or below

That simple.

That involves one of two things. A spring change, or a battery change.... 20$

Now, Johnny doesnt have to go and rip out his high speed motor, high speed gears and whatever else he has done to get his gun to an insane rof. He needs to change a spring.






Sticks, are you willing to drive off the long time vets and those who helped build this community? Those who are responsible with their build..... Just so that Johnny has less of an opportunity to hurt people. No the new people need to figure it out, or leave, just like I and everyone on here has had to do.
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  #86  
Old 12-03-2012, 09:55 PM
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*snip*
Ohio and CA airsoft are currently being studied for a national insurance standard. Wallace (Zshot) has been meeting up with reps from around the states to discuss national standards. Last I heard, they're leaning towards mild restrictions. The full face mask rule has been the hardest part to lobby against. Also if they deem airsoft "dangerous" with current standards, plan on stock TMs making a comeback and full facemasks if you want to be insured.

Per topic: Outside of being slammed with work, I don't play because of the speedball player at MILSIM events and the lack of respect players have for each other in all categories. You can't even pay $250 anymore to get a clean, safety and honorable event.
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  #87  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks View Post

After watching this thread it seems that the only people that are against less full auto are people who use an airsoft gun with a really high RPS. No one has talked about trigger response.

What we as a community need to realize is that new players (players who join within the last year and a half-ish) have access to really high RPS guns. What they are lacking is the experience to use these guns properly. This is what causes accident that make insurance rates higher. I don't believe anyone is doubting the guys with high RPS guns that have the experience to use them properly(everyone who is pro high RPS in this thread), what we are saying is you either have to ban it for everyone to keep stupid people from hurting other people, or you have to let it go un moderated and wait for something bad to happen.

So those responsible players, are you willing to use either a lower RPS with FA or just use semi to keep AO's fields running safely? Or are you not willing to play with these rules and do you want it to just run its coarse?

sticks

I did mention this earlier as one of the first responses.
Trigger response is my main reason for high C 11.1v lipos.
I have always used an M4 shooting <=350FPS and will outplay or outshoot most. Restricting RPS will do nothing to hinder field stupidity.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:18 PM
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Implying that the average player shoots 300FPS with their 40RPS, and not 400FPS and 40RPS. Implying 300FPS cant bloody someone at 40RPS. Implying people play with full auto guns that shoot hotter than 400FPS. Implying that 300FPS is useless unless you can shoot 9001 BB's in an 8 hour period.
My point isn't to imply that these are the cases, but to provide the counter argument why FPS is more dangerous than ROF. A 400FPS 17RPS gun delivers the same impact energy as a 400FPS 40RPS gun. While 300 can sometimes bloody a person, 400-450 point blank is pretty much guaranteed to do so.

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After watching this thread it seems that the only people that are against less full auto are people who use an airsoft gun with a really high RPS. No one has talked about trigger response.
I allude to it in my posts. I had it more explicitly stated before I edited them. I am a higher RPS user, and I will defend my right to use it at fields. This is because to the best of my knowledge, my using of a RPS gun has done nothing wrong, and I have not harmed anyone in using it either. I do not want to be restricted because a few bad apples spoiled the batch. This is, of course, my personal biased opinion. That which really matters is what I have quoted below.

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Originally Posted by sticks View Post
What we as a community need to realize is that new players (players who join within the last year and a half-ish) have access to really high RPS guns. What they are lacking is the experience to use these guns properly. This is what causes accident that make insurance rates higher. I don't believe anyone is doubting the guys with high RPS guns that have the experience to use them properly(everyone who is pro high RPS in this thread), what we are saying is you either have to ban it for everyone to keep stupid people from hurting other people, or you have to let it go un moderated and wait for something bad to happen.
Again, something EO's need to take responsibility in preventing. These situations always existed, but because the hobby is bigger the occurrences are more frequent.

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So those responsible players, are you willing to use either a lower RPS with FA or just use semi to keep AO's fields running safely? Or are you not willing to play with these rules and do you want it to just run its coarse?
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I think we've reached a point where its difficult to self-regulate specific players from field to field now. There is such a large number of players compared to, say 2005, nowadays and at this point most of them aren't even present on the forums or known acquaintances by the "old guard." At the same time, we now exist in a community where there are fields in every corner of Ohio, and players are much more localized than they used to be. The issues seen at one field many not necessarily be seen at another. Valley Creek sees several PolarStar users each game, I don't think any of them have ever caused problems for other players. I think its fair to say that fields have the right to decide on their respective rules based on their local clientele and find what works best for them. As in our great capitalist nation, those that do not provide what the consumer wants will either change or fade away. Those that do will strive.
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  #89  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:24 PM
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I honestly believe that safety should be of the utmost importance. We don't want some idiot to go blast someone in the face with 60 a second and have one of our great fields sewed. That would be a terrible loss to the community because of bad decisions. I have had experiences where I have been lit up like a Thanksgiving turkey by a polar star on full auto before I could even react. Picture your fat relative (I believe we have all experienced seeing this ). But I didn't loose any sleep over it and it merely hurt. Most of the polar star owners I have encountered are very responsible with their weapons of mass BB slinging. Most stock guns are shooting around 20ish rps with 11.1s. One of the cool things about airsoft is being able to get that super quick response time and Fast rof. My stock G&P baby monster is shooting 23 rps with a 7.4 and has an awesome response time. Just my 2 cents but I'm big on the safety and realism aspect of not allowing insane rofs. I think around 25 is reasonable.
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  #90  
Old 12-03-2012, 10:26 PM
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Sorry I must has skipped over your first post.
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Originally Posted by Flenner View Post
Restricting RPS will do nothing to hinder field stupidity.
Correct, it will not hinder stupidity. What it will do is reduce the amount of rounds that are flying through the air, which coincidentally reduces the amount of damage that someone can do. If a new kid fires on full auto from the wood line at red dragon, while moving to the town, it is more likely that he will fire full auto inside a building or close to a building than is full auto is not allowed at all. That is common sense. We are not trying to prevent stupidity, that will always be a factor in airsoft, we are limiting the chances for people to hurt other people.

Again, I'm not talking about players who have been around for awhile. The problems that have happened in the last few month have been caused by the massive influx of new players in the last year. That is the reason this topic has come up(again).

inb4 grow a pair, dont be a *****, etc etc

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:40 PM
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Personally I don't care. I've been on the receiving end multiple times and have used a weapon with a high RoF, who remembers Scorp's SR16? Like Paul said, even though his weapon fires incredibly fast it also won't be nearly as destructive as taking a 500 fps round. As long as people aren't blasting each other full-auto at point blank range, which we shouldn't be doing anyway, right kids? Limiting RoF would be bogus.
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  #92  
Old 12-03-2012, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by OverLord View Post
That involves one of two things. A spring change, or a battery change.... 20$

Now, Johnny doesnt have to go and rip out his high speed motor, high speed gears and whatever else he has done to get his gun to an insane rof. He needs to change a spring.
No, not at all. Not even remotely close. Johnny's gun has his unsafe anti-milsim gearbox built to function with a certain spring, battery, and minimum ROF. Slapping a weaker spring in only causes pre-engagement between the piston and sector gear and can destroy both the gears and the piston. Who gets the bill for that? Consequently, Johnny's gun still gets above 25 RPS with a high-C 7.4v battery and won't function on weaker 7.4v batteries. Who gets the bill for the downgrade itself, the money spent on the initial anti-milsim/safety parts to build the original gearbox, potentially the new battery, and the money spent on the new safe, milsim-friendly parts? It is not always as simple as a spring or battery change and those that have working knowledge of high speed builds know this already.

Also, trigger response is related to motor startup torque, trigger pull/reset distance, and cyclic rate. Those that have impressive trigger response likely also have higher cyclic rates and vice versa. Lower trigger pull/reset distances such as what is found in PTWs and PolarStars stock and in AEGs/GBBRs with hair trigger modifications also increase trigger response.

Son of Liberty's post all the way. I stand by my plea to restrict the players and not their equipment. Weed out the rotten eggs more effectively as a community.

**EDIT** News flash: One can have a high-speed build AND be responsible with it. I've witnessed it. I've played against and with Spectre, Italian, and many of the locals here in my neck of the woods with TRUE high-speed builds (not Jonah's definition of one which is actually a stock gun with a dinky 11.1V LiPO) and all of them were relatively responsible with them. Unless someone or someone's insurance company around here has been threatened with a lawsuit or has been SUCCESSFULLY sued in court over injuries sustained during an airsoft event, I fail to see the issue here that is bad enough to warrant additional regulations on an already restricted activity.

Last edited by Jonezy; 12-04-2012 at 01:12 PM.
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  #93  
Old 12-03-2012, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
My point isn't to imply that these are the cases, but to provide the counter argument why FPS is more dangerous than ROF. A 400FPS 17RPS gun delivers the same impact energy as a 400FPS 40RPS gun. While 300 can sometimes bloody a person, 400-450 point blank is pretty much guaranteed to do so.
Yes 400FPS shooting at bare skin from 40ft will do less damage than 500FPS at the same distance, if the shots impact at the exact same point. However 1 500FPS shot has less chance of doing damage than 40 400FPS shots because of something called the cone of fire. In fact the ratio is 1/40th of the chance of hitting teeth, nose, ears, skin, fingers, throat etc. Simply put, more rounds down range means more chances of hitting something that shouldn't be hit. If we limit the amount of players shooting this many BB's there will be less damage done. Period.


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I allude to it in my posts. I had it more explicitly stated before I edited them. I am a higher RPS user, and I will defend my right to use it at fields. This is because to the best of my knowledge, my using of a RPS gun has done nothing wrong, and I have not harmed anyone in using it either. I do not want to be restricted because a few bad apples spoiled the batch. This is, of course, my personal biased opinion. That which really matters is what I have quoted below.
I have nothing against you personally using a higher RPS gun, because you and others like you have the experience. However currently a nicer stock gun, ie a KWA M4, running on the now standard 11.1V LiPo can achieve 25-27RPS out of the box. Sometimes even higher.

You work in a retail store do you not? How many times have you sold a set-up like the above to someone who is just getting into the game? I have sold many of these combinations because it keeps paying my bills. I assume you will too, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Where the error comes into play is when someone who is un-education and typically airsoft ignorant gets onto the field and causes an accident. We cannot eliminate accidents, we can only reduce the chances of something happening.

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Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
Again, something EO's need to take responsibility in preventing. These situations always existed, but because the hobby is bigger the occurrences are more frequent.
Every field typically uses the "AO" standard ruleset for MED's and FPS. This is because it is the "standard". What we are talking about is creating a new "standard" so that we can reduce the cost of insurance and the amount of accidents. If we do not come together with a new standard the insurance companies will do this for us. I guarantee you if they do that we will be shooting semi only and wearing full face masks. We will probably have to start limiting our guns to 1J as well. By manning up and allowing a new state wide standard of semi only or limited RoF we can avoid all of this. Its just the effect of playing a growing game. If the fields stay divided and everyone uses different rules, in the end we will all suffer. That is the simple point that I am trying to make.

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Old 12-03-2012, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonezy View Post
No, not at all. Not even remotely close. Johnny's gun has his unsafe anti-milsim gearbox built to function with a certain spring, battery, and minimum ROF. Slapping a weaker spring in only causes pre-engagement between the piston and sector gear and can destroy both the gears and the piston. It is not always as simple as a spring or battery change and those that have working knowledge of high speed builds know this already.


I failed to take that in account and stand corrected.

Regardless, its Johnnys fault if he fails to take that into account. If he is an experienced gun tech (enough to build his gun) , he should be able to sort that out himself. If he doesnt, its his fault and he gets to pay for it. Negligence and failure to think dont fall into anyones responsibility other than the one teching.

While you try to argue tech specs with me you miss the point. Swapping a spring is designed to bring down the fps quickly and effectivly while allowing the person to keep their unrealistic ROF. Some small modifications may be needed, but will keep from trashing the whole build. It keeps less people pissed off when they know that all they have to do is meet a fps restriction to have whatever ROF they want.

My saw will shoot well over 20 rps no matter what battery i put into it. Its already at 300 fps as well. There is almost no way to get it to shoot any slower. That was one of my issues with the whole ROF limitation in the first place. Sometimes you just cant make a gun shoot much slower.

Gun debate over, my point still stands. Limiting ROF is completely pointless. If you had to do it, having ROF and FPS be proportional would be the best way to go about doing it.
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Last edited by OverLord; 12-03-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  #95  
Old 12-03-2012, 11:30 PM
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Gun debate over, my point still stands. Limiting ROF is completely pointless. If you had to do it, having ROF and FPS be proportional would be the best way to go about doing it.
See above, you guys forget that using full auto is less accurate than using semi. You're going to hit stuff you aren't trying to when using full auto.

What gets me is we "strive" to be more MilSim. If we really wanted to we would limit everyones round count and everyone who didn't have a SAW would use semi only. Right now the direction that we are moving to is speedsoft. See urban marines post. If we can't easily reduce the RoF on FA then we can simply flip the selector from full to semi. If you don't want to do either of those then you are actively participating in something that will eventually kill airsoft as we know it. We will either A; wear face masks, shoot 300FPS, and use semi or B; become the next paintball. California has already crossed into this thresh hold a long time ago. Forcing many of the MilSim players there to play private only games. I do not want to see airsoft in Ohio come to this level. I hope no one else does.

I fail to see how none of you can contemplate the outcome of super high RoF airsoft guns, especially considering the amount of uneducated new players.

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Old 12-03-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks View Post
Yes 400FPS shooting at bare skin from 40ft will do less damage than 500FPS at the same distance, if the shots impact at the exact same point. However 1 500FPS shot has less chance of doing damage than 40 400FPS shots because of something called the cone of fire. In fact the ratio is 1/40th of the chance of hitting teeth, nose, ears, skin, fingers, throat etc. Simply put, more rounds down range means more chances of hitting something that shouldn't be hit. If we limit the amount of players shooting this many BB's there will be less damage done. Period.
Again, I do not want to be limited in my options because of what "might" happen.

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I have nothing against you personally using a higher RPS gun, because you and others like you have the experience. However currently a nicer stock gun, ie a KWA M4, running on the now standard 11.1V LiPo can achieve 25-27RPS out of the box. Sometimes even higher.

You work in a retail store do you not? How many times have you sold a set-up like the above to someone who is just getting into the game? I have sold many of these combinations because it keeps paying my bills. I assume you will too, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Where the error comes into play is when someone who is un-education and typically airsoft ignorant gets onto the field and causes an accident. We cannot eliminate accidents, we can only reduce the chances of something happening.
I recommend players stick to 7.4V's and leave the original rifle as close to stock as possible until it breaks. This is because it limits the possibilities of damage incurring within the time frame that many of the guns sold in my storefront are under warranty. Local customers do not want to handle distributor level warranty themselves, they want me to repair it for them. I make a judgement call to reduce my costs overall. I also can't tell them that the battery I sold them with the gun caused their gun to break either, and its not my responsibility. Most of the time, if a customer wants to know how to achieve higher ROF with their setups, I spend a good deal of time explaining to them what must happen, and what is to be expected. I have built 40+ RPS builds out of my techbench also. Again, though, it is the responsibility of the EO to make sure that these customers use this equipment properly.

LOLKWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks View Post
Every field typically uses the "AO" standard ruleset for MED's and FPS. This is because it is the "standard". What we are talking about is creating a new "standard" so that we can reduce the cost of insurance and the amount of accidents. If we do not come together with a new standard the insurance companies will do this for us. I guarantee you if they do that we will be shooting semi only and wearing full face masks. We will probably have to start limiting our guns to 1J as well. By manning up and allowing a new state wide standard of semi only or limited RoF we can avoid all of this. Its just the effect of playing a growing game. If the fields stay divided and everyone uses different rules, in the end we will all suffer. That is the simple point that I am trying to make.
While insurance companies will analyze the major communities to determine what they should set as national standards, they are also going to choose the standards that best limit their expenses. It doesn't matter if ROF regulations in our community exist or not. If the insurance companies wish to enact something that saves them the most amount of money, they are. Additionally, we have ZERO control over whether or not facemasks will be implemented as a requirement. This isn't something for your protection, its a matter of two industries coming together to mutually benefit one-another. What UM mentioned earlier on is by no means a new thing. This has bee in the works for a year or so now.

I'm tired of spinning my wheels at this point. Push comes to shove, I'll play with close friends uninsured. Free country, right...?
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Last edited by Spectre; 12-03-2012 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:44 PM
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Again, maybe this is me being stuck in older ways, but I am really saddened by how airsoft is moving towards the speedball attitude. Every year we move closer and closer. I agree sticks, it's kind of strange that people are failing to see it.

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Originally Posted by UrbanMarine View Post
Per topic: Outside of being slammed with work, I don't play because of the speedball player at MILSIM events and the lack of respect players have for each other in all categories. You can't even pay $250 anymore to get a clean, safety and honorable event.
Agreed. If it weren't for friends, I'd be long gone.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OverLord View Post
While you try to argue tech specs with me you miss the point. Swapping a spring is designed to bring down the fps quickly and effectivly while allowing the person to keep their unrealistic ROF. Some small modifications may be needed, but will keep from trashing the whole build. It keeps less people pissed off when they know that all they have to do is meet a fps restriction to have whatever ROF they want.
Swapping too low of a spring will cause pre- engagement in any high ROF build, effectively destroying the piston and/ or sector gear among other parts. Short stroking will allow the player to keep all the parts they are currently using while lowering the FPS. It's best not to make an incorrect suggestion on a public forum that can lead to misinformation.

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Originally Posted by OverLord View Post
My saw will shoot well over 20 rps no matter what battery i put into it. Its already at 300 fps as well. There is almost no way to get it to shoot any slower. That was one of my issues with the whole ROF limitation in the first place. Sometimes you just cant make a gun shoot much slower.
You can easily make your gun slower, higher ratio gears, slower motors, heavier springs paired with short stroking, etc.




Regulate the player, not the advancements in gearbox mechanics. Set some standards on the field and turn away players that do not rise to the occasion. I personally don't want to play with someone out for blood or someone with little trigger control/ common sense.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:57 PM
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I also have a very important question, that nobody may have thought of...

If we are to limit the RPS, HOW will this happen?

In today's industry, motors have a higher torque and speed ratio than previous years, which in turn means a higher ROF however anyone looks at it, but what happens when that's paired with a higher spring ALREADY? (This is obviously concerning AEG)

Example: Stock KWA (400FPS) with 11.1v lipo is ~22-26 BPS
Stock KWA (400FPS) with 9.6vnimh/7.4v lipo is 16-18 BPS

Do we have to sacrifice trigger response and higher end gear we already have for field restrictions, or are we just going to make every player throw in a high torque gearset and make them work on their own guns? I hope not. We already have to pull spring changes on many rifles before they can even be fielded...and to most players that costs money.

I know we are all trying to find some sort of solution, but it's not going to happen without losing veteran and new players. If you're willing to risk it, I guess it's gung-ho for you, but why can't we just deal with this schiza on a case-to-case basis?

Final question for organizers: As a multiple event host, I've only had to deal with players FA indoors, so I don't see this often...what's your ratio of "screaming gear death trap gun wielding idiots"- "honest player" ratio? Mine would be 2/150, a relatively small percentage... Are you willing to ruin a large amount of players' fun by creating more rules? This is halfhearted joke... How about we do a Clinton 5 day gas-gun waiting period, too....and tack on a rider suggestion of only ten round low caps? Maybe the kids and (irresponsible) adults will learn trigger control then?
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:40 AM
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Now wouldnt tamper tape solve the P* altering problem after chrono? Put some tamper tape on the control to prevent the change for the day and spot check them during the game if there's an issue?
Why hasn't anyone else noticed this? Seems to me like this is the one foolproof way to halt this.. No one with an AEG has a truly insane ROF to worry about, and p* guns are mostly the ones that have the capability to have anything worth worrying about (in general. I know there are such things as dual sector gears and whatnot for AEGs to have stupid high ROF, but that's extremely uncommon in my experience). If I were someone using a p* then I'd be more than happy to put some tamper tape on there. Find a reasonable ROF limit to chrono them in at, doesn't have to be that low because like people have said, p* shooters didn't pay $800 for a typical airsoft gun, but slap some tape on there and be done with it I say.

Also, to anyone who doesn't want shot in the teeth, wear a full face mask. That's totally up to each player himself, so it doesn't really seem justified to complain about. And really, that goes for fingers and everything else as well. If someone got hit in a bare tender spot, I'm not going to blame the shooter's ROF, I'm going to blame the victims lack of preperation. They make gear now to protect every last part of your body.
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Last edited by Raziel; 12-04-2012 at 09:26 AM.
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