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Old 12-28-2008, 07:17 PM
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Stolen Valor

No, it's not the name of a trendy new airsoft event.

There is obviously a certain amount of honor and respect associated with wearing a uniform, whether it be Police/Fire/Military/EMS etc etc etc. Many have earned the fringe benefits that come with the uniform, some have not.

As this war drags on, society will see more veterans coming back, and more imposters claim to be something they haven't, or have done something they haven't.

The purpose of this thread is to ask a few questions of the community:

1. Should we institute a rule requiring those that claim military service to prove it?
2. If #1 isn't an option, should AO have some kind of special rank or Icon that veterans get applied to their accounts?

Many who have been here for a few years will remember that once upon a time, we had such a rule, and for whatever reason, it got revoked.

The purpose of these possible changes isn't to make life harder for veterans, it's to make life harder for imposters. I'm more interested in what our resident veterans think of this (IE, would you be willing to "prove" it if requested), however any comments or suggestions would be helpful.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:18 PM
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I really like option number 2. That would prove who's who and it would be nice for veterans.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:33 PM
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yeah I like option #2 also
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:43 PM
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Uh even if you go with #2, wouldn't the veterans still have to prove it? I have no problem proving it. Want my American Legion membership card or DD214?
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:44 PM
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I think both could be implemented in they're information above number of posts or around that area, but they would some how have to prove it to have it put up. It would give more respect to those that fought for our freedom to even have such a things like this forum.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:50 PM
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I guess my pet peeve is someone who wears insignia ( even though they claim to "honor" the unit involved) that they didn't earn. If ya didn't go through BUDS, don't wear the trident.

Last edited by mac50; 12-28-2008 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:52 PM
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I have my dd214 ready if any want to see it.

Also what do you mean by prove it? Are you going to call someone out if they say that they were in the military in their profile? Is it just to use for signatures, pics, profile? How are you going to have to prove it? Am I just to fax my papers to you or to the mods? Do I scan it to my computer then send it in an email to someone? If that's the case, it's not that hard to fake it. A dd214 can be filled out by anyone (if you can get one). Granted if your caught, then it's a federal crime. Are you going to do background checks?

I think has it's pro's & con's and it's about honor, I know that this is a private forum, but at what lengths do we go? If you've been there, then you can tell by taking to someone. I can still to this day tell you my company from basic and I can tell you my class number from Ranger school. That was over 10 years ago and I will never forget those numbers.

Sorry for going on and on. That's just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:07 PM
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Loki, how would such said veterans prove their service? Providing a copy of their DD-214? I would not like my personal data(DD214) floating around so I can prove when I served and what I did when I was in. I would think that all veterans on AO can prove their service, providing specifics on their MOS/NEC is something you would have to discuss with the individual in private. Who would be doing the "investigation" you?
If a veteran claims he received a silver or bronze star for heroism,wears a tab/badge he did not earn, then that's a dishonorable thing to do.
Your option #2:
I say no. NOONE deserves respect because they have a icon or AO badge next to their screenname. The respect comes on the field and in the forums.If non-vets say they would like it, so be it. Badges come and go like airsoft event patches.

If option #1 comes into effect, I'll be standing by.
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Last edited by Miyagi; 12-28-2008 at 08:14 PM. Reason: add
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:31 PM
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I have never been in the military so my opinion might be completely wrong which is also why I want to apologize if I am being harsh or offending anyone. I have been around military veterans for more than 8 years now. Some are true soldier, some are just posers. Doing your time in the armed forced doesn't make you a true veteran in my book and since I can't generalize how veterans truly are or behave, I would say "true" veteran are usually the quite guys. The one that lived the war enough that they don't want to brag about, they don't want to be recognized as heroes or simply don't want to be taken by pitty. A true veteran doesn't need a badge to be recognized or doesn't need a badge to show is true value. I have known veterans that after talking with them about their experience, I feel ashame asking them more details. I will never really feel their pain but I definitely feel bad/sad for them. That is what I call a veteran.

I have been around airsofters for more than 8 years now. Some are great players, some are just posers. Some believe and enjoy the sport, some just want to show off or prove they are more hardcore than others.

When you get loud players in the field, it just rings a bell for me. The guy could tell me he is a veteran of Irak or even having badges to show what he did, to me, it just sounds like "fake". I don't know, perhaps my lack of true experience is the problem but I imagine all true veterans to be quite, just wanting to leave their lives happy/alone without having to remember/brag about what happened over there.

Is wearing a badge offensive to those who were there and lost friends or suffer nightmares? I can't say but to me, the badge is more than that, the true veteran are linked by heart, not by a badge. How many soldiers died without recognition or medals? doesn't make less valuable or less heroes than those who fought longer? in my book, this is quite the opposite. medals can be so "political" by time, you can't even be sure if a medal is not another way to prove a point to the media or the population.

Now, I know I went further than what I should have but my point had to be clear: a Poser, veteran or player, will always be a poser and fortunately for me, I have been lucky to see them coming from far away. Trying to regulate them would be logistical nightmare and even more, a very legally tricky thing to get done (background check, etc).

IMO, let the posers be, they are usually stupid enough to do a mistake and screw themselves up. For the true veteran out there, just try to understand the pain and sufferance rather then knowing why he got a medal or a badge.
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Last edited by Blade; 12-29-2008 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:41 PM
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Loki, I like your train of thought. I think it should be optional for someone to provide you with credentials. If they do then give them the status on the site. If they don't then thats ok to, just take their word for it. I'm not a veteran of war, or of the armed forces, but personal information is personal information, and I wouldn't fax, email, or distribute it otherwise to people I only know as an online handle. Granite some of you do know one another as friends so in that case it would be cool I guess. And excellent post by the way, I like the way you think!
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:52 PM
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Alot of people think that what a veteran did while they were in makes them more respectable. A truck driver,a medic, a cook, a secretary, a special forces team leader and a tank mechanic are all one thing.........veterans.
It doesn't matter what their job was, it was important.

Tabs and badges show hard work,dedication and sacrifice. Unfortunately, all MOS's/NEC's dont have appropriate tabs/badges. They all deserve one.
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:36 PM
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simple- No one has to prove anything, unless they open their mouths and try to pull rank or claim they are not who they are.

1- if they have earned a mil rank, then pulling it on a civilian makes no sense; it has no place in milsim. Individuals can obviously shower whoever they want with any display of adoration or admiration they want, but it has little relevance to the game.

2- lording a status over non vets in a milSIM arena is unnecessarily attention grabbing. The community should not assign status to any group period, it's divisive and unecessary, especially if it is to publicly assign status to people who already have been recognized with the rewards of status in a more legitimate forum- their career. In a free and relatively equitable group such as this, status is granted by people to others informally.

3- no one should wear any rank or branch or insignia they did not earn, problem solved. I have no US ARMY branch tapes, or rank insignia, or anything of the sort- the only ,military patches I have were given to me and they sit at home, not mixing with my airsoft stuff ever. Our team logo was borrowed by an SF unit; that's about it, but if anything, they are wearing our insignia.

4- I'm personally against ranks on teams, since it leads to distracting ego games, but every team is different.

This is airsoft, a sim of action, not of garrison life or competitive ego games or of comparing real war stories to BB gun stories over a beer. The two have obvious surface similarities, but little else in common.

just some thoughts.
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Old 12-28-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miyagi View Post
Loki, how would such said veterans prove their service? Providing a copy of their DD-214? I would not like my personal data(DD214) floating around so I can prove when I served and what I did when I was in. I would think that all veterans on AO can prove their service, providing specifics on their MOS/NEC is something you would have to discuss with the individual in private. Who would be doing the "investigation" you?
If a veteran claims he received a silver or bronze star for heroism,wears a tab/badge he did not earn, then that's a dishonorable thing to do.
Your option #2:
I say no. NOONE deserves respect because they have a icon or AO badge next to their screenname. The respect comes on the field and in the forums.If non-vets say they would like it, so be it. Badges come and go like airsoft event patches.

If option #1 comes into effect, I'll be standing by.
In complete agreement with Miyagi here...
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:12 PM
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Most of us vets don't want the extra attention. Not why we serve.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:15 PM
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How about if you brag about your time in the service and wear it on your sleeve, THEN you need to prove it?
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:25 PM
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I see no problem in calling out a blatant braggart if they have put themself in the spotlight. Most servicemen are quick to tell you what they did. It's the guys that shove far fetched credentials at the drop of hat you have to worry about. Then again some people aren't quick to admit they were cooks or drivers (but to those who do, my hats off you to.)

Point being, if your going to put yourself out in the public, you'd better be prepared for the fallout if your discovered to be full of it.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:39 PM
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First, anyone who served, no matter what branch or job is a veteran. I don't care if you were a Ranger or a private in the airforce reserve who scraped bird doo off F-16s... you served, you're a veteran. Firefighters and police (and so on) serve everyday, their service is appreciated but technically not military veterans... service yes. I think most people can agree on that.

Second, I don't think veterans should have to prove what they did. I also don't want to post my DD-214. I think that the veterans who try to "pull rank" on non-military 16 year olds at events is a little harsh too. The real fake "stolen valor" guys will eventially step in it and reveal themselves.

Now, as far as teams and milsim units... If they want to have a rank structure, award system, and that sort of thing I have NO problem with that; and I'm a vet. As a 20 year Revolutionary War reenactor, I see alot of milsim/airoft stuff as being essentially reenacting in a fun and relatively harmless way. I think most SANE milsim people aren't going to go as far as issue Purple Hearts and Medals of Honor (both illegal I think?). But if someone puts a team together and gets enough players, has some skills, I have no problem with him/her being a "captain" or whatever. I doubt any sane milsim captain will try to pull rank on someone not in his/her own team. As far as Special Forces/Ranger/Airborne...etc tabs and the like? My thoughts, since it's just a game and, I think, essentially like reenacting, there shouldn't be much harm in it. People should be responsible enough not to walk into McDonalds after the game wearing a Special Forces/Delta Force uniform and try to pass themselves off (maybe it would be best just to shed the obvious things). There's no law against wearing BDU pants and a fake kevlar.

My loosy-goosey "team" awarded me a "medal" for "actions" this fall... it's a foreign medal that hasn't been used in 60+ years- but what the heck, I'm honored. I'm not going to be wearing it at the bar and telling war stories over it either (ha ha). It's a reenacting thing, I know where the reenactment stops, the "medal" goes in a box with my other gear

Rambled long enough I guess, but my friends and I have talked over this amongst ourselves many times (half of us served in the 90-91 Gulf). As a former 11Bravo CIB veteran, I have absoluetly NO problem with a 14 year old (or 44 year old) guy/gal wearing my 101st ABN patch on a set of BDUs with a general's rank... if he or she has skills? I might even fall in with them. Just don't carry the rank off the field, or pose too much

Really, no hard feelings from this combat veteran. Whatever floats your boat... as long as you're not raining on my parade
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strikers_blade View Post
Doing your time in the armed forced doesn't make you a true veteran in my book.
Blade, while I agree with most of your post, this one sentence tempted me to give a negative rep, so I was surprised to see all of the positive reps you received...

Doing your time in the armed forces certainly DOES make you a true veteran.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Blade, while I agree with most of your post, this one sentence tempted me to give a negative rep, so I was surprised to see all of the positive reps you received...

Doing your time in the armed forces certainly DOES make you a true veteran.
While I certainly agree with you 100%, perhaps we should give Blade the benefit of doubt here. He may think you have to deploy to combat to be veteran status. I'm sure there is NO one here who respects the military and it's veterans more than Bladie buns.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:54 PM
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Many people have different ideals on what a "veteran" is. Some say it is anyone who has served time in-service no matter what the length. Some say it is only those who have served and been deployed in times of war. Everyone has their own ideas of what makes someone a veteran, especially those of us who have actually served.
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:59 PM
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I agree with Locutus. Since you're not required to join up here, there are people who have the balls to do it. For whatever different reason it may be that someone joins up, they're still handing over their time to our country. Even if you're a garbage man in the Army or a cook on a boat in the Navy, your part is still significant. People like that run everything else and make it possible for our boys to do their job in the field.Most of my family have been in the service, some have seen combat, some have not, but that doesn't make them any less of a veteran. Each and every one of the guys that clean up after the military or work on our jets would still lay their life on the line for us just like a grunt would, and thats exactly why they joined up, and its a lot more than a lot of other people do.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:02 AM
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My apology for not extending my thoughts on the subject. To avoid confusion, I will not update my post above but simply state something else. I will try to be as blunt as it could be

You have the veteran who wanted to serve his country and you have the veteran who wanted to get free college, hoping he would never have to serve his country in a real conflict. Have you guys heard the US military is getting a hard time to recruit because gang members are being recruited so they can come out with "extra" knowledge???

It is all about mentality. It is not about being deployed or being in actual combat, it is about the reason for serving. I prefer someone not joining because he would have done it for the wrong reason then the guys getting in just to get $$$ or college. I truly believe in the military, no matter what country
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:05 AM
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Great explanation blade!!!
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:35 AM
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Uh... excuse me? I was sort of in the Locutus camp there for a minute. It's late, I just thought that Blade just "mis-typed" and was being vague, but not insulting? There were LOTS of guys who got drafted and did not want to join the army who stormed the beaches at Normandy or attacked Hamburger Hill in Vietnam... were their attitudes wrong? Are they less of a Veteran? I sincerely do not know where you are coming from, Blade? I joined for college money, heck I was dirt poor, so were ALL of my friends and lots of my buddies in the army. I knew former gang members who joined just to escape and make a career out of the military who were highly decorated soldiers I still think of them often... Was their, or my, "mentality" wrong? We suffered greatly for years happily and when we were deployed worked well together. In fact, I knew hardly anyone in my infantry company who did not look for some sort of personal gain from joining whether it be a career, retirement, or college money? My CO was an ROTC guy, he got "free college"... he was the best officer ever and highly decorated, I would have died for him, was his "mentality" wrong for joining and getting "free college"?

I think we all need to take a chill pill here for a second. It's hard to express yourself properly in a forum.. you, me, etc. In fact, there is NO anger whatsoever in this post, I'm happily sipping coffee I have never met you Blade, Miyagi, or Locutus, I'm sure we would all get along wonderfully! My main thoughts right now Blade are: Where can I find an airplane wreck for your field, where can I find pictures of the Springfield Ranch, I hope the weather on the 24th of January is good, and what will I wear to the Op Springfield event? I will be happy to meet you Blade if you're at that event and I really don't want you to think of me as a jerk. But, yeah, I joined for the college money, you kind of hurt my feelings. Oh, it's not totally free college (or wasn't in '91). I only got $17,000 and that didn't cover college by any means.

Will look forward to your reply. Will post questions on the Springfield event on the 24th on the appropriate forum. Will look forward to seeing you there... and shooting you... NO JUST KIDDING!!!! Good luck, really, I really am a friendly guy
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:43 AM
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LOL, as far as me being friendly, you gonna have to ask the guys playing at Springfield
Quote:
I knew former gang members who joined just to escape and make a career out of the military who were highly decorated soldiers...
as you said, he did it to get rid the gang, not for the gang. To me, it sounded like he wanted to finally accomplish something in his life, not really get a free pass.

But anyway, I definitely have a very wide view on the military subject and I know I can/could sound offensive here so I will limit myself. If you want to discuss about it, you all know where to find me.
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