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  #51  
Old 07-15-2007, 03:13 PM
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disciple i think he means earlier in the day, when the first spawn campers showed up. for that, US guys, i am sorry.
i want to say thanks to everyone for coming out to our second event, and i am glad to hear so many people had a good time, despite the cons.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:15 PM
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I think we all owe it to any organizer to offer some positive critiquing of any event. I have been thinking about running an event for some time and I will probably make it happen next year. The 91st were very creative but unfortunately things did not go the way they intended.

I think that control measures is what you want to think about for future events. You can come up with some pre-planned. It is easy to be after the fact smart, so I don't want to use yesterday as an example, because it would look like I am using hindsight.

Some ideas that I came up with would be to have "airborne forces". If one team is pinned up and cannot break out, then the organizers could wait at the respawn until 10-15 of them gather up, and take them for a walk to the other end of the field, around the boundries. Bam, you have action in the rear. The other one I was thinking of was a third country that wants the war to stop. They can launch "chemical attacks" throughout the day when the teams lose track of their objectives. The organizer blow a horn and both sides are forced to return to their respawn points to get out of the strike zone. The organizers could then issue (or re-issue) orders, add props to the field, mark a "hot" area, etc.

Just some ideas. I want to say again that nobody needs to be too harsh on the organizers. They are willing to learn from their lessons and I would be glad to attend another of their events.

I also want to again apologize for blowing my top towards the end of the day on whoever double-tapped me. I was hot and thirsty and should have just walked away from that whole unfortunate incident.
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  #53  
Old 07-15-2007, 03:29 PM
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FIRST, lets get the 'spawn camping' thing straight. The beginning of it wasn't our fault. MY squad reached the US spawn within 10 minutes, slowly. when we arrived, we had no clue what it was, we thought it was some kind of forward observation post or something that we could take, so we did, and we held it for a few minutes.

there were NO US forces in sight, just the guys in the chairs, who we had shot at long range, and dead men don't talk (or send signals, which i saw plenty of US guys doing). we thought you guys hadn't gotten there yet, so we dug in and prepared to defend our newly taken territory, facing the west. we assumed you guys had probably done the same on the other side of the field on the some insurgent forward post.

we set up a perimeter, and when people started coming to respawn, and we realized it was actually a respawn point, we attempted to move out towards the east, where they were coming from (we assumed east until the fence, then south), because we didnt know. we encountered heavy resistance on the way out so we shifted north to start to flank, and as soon as we got far enough, started taking fire from behind as well. we were eventually taking fire from every direction but west.

this is around the time we got yelled at for being in the grass. they told us to get out. we said we weren't just going to stand up and get our heads taken off. so we would fight our way out. after another couple minutes the organizers finally called a cease fire, angry that we were still there. i dont think they realized our squad had gone ghost, so didnt know it was the main respawn. it wasnt until AFTER the short ceasefire that we found that out. by that time, other insurgents had pushed up in our wake and surrounded the spawn.

So, as you can see, if the US had not abandoned the back route by the railroad tracks and gave us a free pass all the way in, it would have never happened. You cant blame us totally for your fatal mistake. If we had realized what it was, we would have immediately ran up your 6 in the villages and left your spawn alone. we assumed you were still on our 12.

so THAT is the true story of how yesterday started to occur, which is at least half the fault of the US for leaving the backvdoor wide open within the first 15 minutes of the game. The rest is history.

I apologize to those that didnt have fun, but seriously, if that first group had not gotten a free pass, we would have known we were deeper in enemy territory that we thought, so we wouldnt have stayed.

also, its not always good to try and surrender someone at 25' who is looking straight at you. I was there during aforementioned incident. I surrendered because the guy popped over the mound on my 3, and if he had wanted, put 2 in my lip @ 10'.

thanks to the 91st and all those who played fair.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by stewb_10 View Post
this is around the time we got yelled at for being in the grass. they told us to get out. we said we weren't just going to stand up and get our heads taken off. so we would fight our way out. after another couple minutes the organizers finally called a cease fire, angry that we were still there.
If you were asked by an event organizer to leave the grass, then you should have complied.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:47 PM
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if you saw guys sitting in chairs behind bright orange tape, that you walked by before the game, that should have been a clue that it was a spawn point and could not have been taken.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:50 PM
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well, yes, you have a a point, except for the fact that we personally we discussing our first actions, i don't even remember passing those guys. this was my first time at Springfield. i dont know where the spawns usually are. i know me, my squad leader, and a few other guys were talking strategy unless we had no watch out steps through the terrain. further, just because its a spawn point doesn't mean it cannot be taken. we didn't know it was a MAIN spawn point. as i said before, we assumed it to be a forward observation point, as there was nobody home. i would think there would be at least some defense on a main spawn.

evil head: yea, and get torn to shreds by all you guys. i doubt you would have stood up and caught three in the face at that type of distance, less that 50', as the head is the only thing you could really see over the grass. if i could have stood up, i would have. we communicated these concerns to them, one agreed, but then the next one is the one who got angry. he didn't know we had talked to the other guy.

they did the right thing in calling the short cease fire and we immediately left. the fact still remains that you guys shouldn't have left the back door open or it would have never happened.

after all, this was supposed to be a milsim game, and quite frankly, the organizers were just bailing you guys out to save the fun for the day. if you really want to get milsim, the best option may have been to call the game, give it to the insurgents, and start over. its not as if we went out of bounds to get there. can you really blame us for getting there? no, you have to blame yourself. i think we need to think about how we could have dealt with it AFTER that to make it more fun and fair.


and btw, trying to trap me on the internet doesn't change anything. i wasn't trying to start an argument, just share a point of view. if you cant just take it for what its worth, maybe its not the teenagers in the sport we need to worry about. It was a game that went slightly wrong, but its over and done. the best we can do is find out what happened and how to make it not happen again:

1) I've never before been to an event that walks the enemy right by the main spawn of the other team. Even if i HAD seen it, no way would it ever cross my mind for it to be a main spawn.

2) The leaders of each side should know the field well enough to cover all points of assault and not allow either team an easy way to penetrate his or her defenses.

3) If something like this does occur, maybe you just start over again instead of basically organizing a perimeter of assault around the spawn.

4) Maybe pre-plan ways to re-even the game if it gets lopsided. maybe you have every villager turn US and fight against the insurgents, rip them apart and beat them back after gaining their trust.

I don't know. I'm not claiming to be able to organize events and i have great respect for those who can, and those who try. I have great respect for a lot of the US guys, because even after they decided to leave, they still had a good attitude. They saw it as a game and something that didnt turn out the way they wanted, but i still heard plenty of talks of BBQ and beer .
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  #57  
Old 07-15-2007, 04:04 PM
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i wasn't trying to trap you, i was stating an obvious fact, stewb. you guys should have left the first time we asked you to, the US would not have fired upon you. for that fact the insurgents lost a lot of points.
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  #58  
Old 07-15-2007, 04:07 PM
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Stewb, I'm not argueing with you to feel better. I clearly agree that we lost that position early on. And I made the point clear to the organizers that it should have been declared a loss and the spawn point relocated. What you admitted was that you didn't follow directions from an event organizer.
Now my squad made it out into the wooded area and spent most of the morning searching for IED's and capturing intel. We were doing our part.

Now you were afraid to stand up and get shot in the head. Now imagine the players who had to spawn in the middle of a field. They had to walk out in the open just to participate in the event.
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  #59  
Old 07-15-2007, 04:11 PM
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not at all, and i should clarify: we weren't shooting towards the spawn we were fighting our way out. we had our backs to the spawn.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:15 PM
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Sounds to me like a communication break down. Simple and at times devistating to events.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:23 PM
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this is true. IMHO, the contributing factors and (solutions) are:

1) Insurgents knew were a US 'post' was located, even if they didn't know the details. (relocate it or find a way that the insurgents don't walk past)

2) US forces didn't cover the back door. (tactical planning by leaders)

3) Insurgents set up a perimeter which they held for most of the day. (Even though the perimeter kept getting pushed back, it was still already fortified. it needed to be broken up, not moved. find a way to re-even the game: restart, the aforementioned air transport, 3rd party attack, etc.)

i hope that helps the 91st a bit, just my .02.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:30 PM
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First and foremost, I want to thank the 91st for putting on this event and for all the collective hard work that went into it.

Unfortunately though the US side didn't get much chance for this, it was interesting to interact with the villagers quite a bit. But for as much as I talked with some of you, I didn't get much tangible intelligence! However, the guys in my original squad did do a great job of pin-pointing the locations of several IEDs within that immediate area. And I have to say, those were pretty damn hard to see unless you were just tirelessly glancing around for a while. Well... aside from the one that was booby-trapped within an inch of it's life with "live" ordinance.

It was also interesting to have several chances to try and interrogate prisoners of war. Though it didn't help the cause when a.) you can't play psychological mind games having to do with time with people who are wearing watches, and b.) it's a weak ultimatum when you say, "You can either give me your card, tell me the name of your squad leader and last position held, or you can sit here in extreme relaxation, reload, and enjoy your trail mix for another 20 minutes."

I had a blast still, up until the action and imminent threat dropped completely off the radar around the IED factory (evidently when the US was being heavily spawn camped). I apologize for having to skip out early, but at about 3 o'clock, it had been a 13 hour day for me and I still had to drive back and get some other things taken care off before waking up again at 2am this morning for work.

It was a pleasure to fight with the insurgents and my keffiyeh goes off to the US detainees who were good sports throughout their time at the IED factory. Had a great time, myself, but would have more than welcomed a fair challenge from US forces. Sorry to hear about the unfortunate situation with being trapped in the spawn point.

Mobius, good to see you again. Hope to fight alongside you at the next event!
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  #63  
Old 07-15-2007, 04:34 PM
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Just an idea, would it help or hurt to possibly hide an additional team flag throughout the field, then let them put up a re spawn base at their choice location, at least 200 meters from all other re spawn bases, enemy and friendly, and they must clear out a 100 meter radius of all enemies first? Would that be helpful for situations like people guarding spawns or the such? I don't know, its just a suggestion.

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Old 07-15-2007, 04:40 PM
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Insurgents were definitely allowed to advance on the far side by the tracks with minimal opposition. We finally took the dirt mound closest to the tracks and upon coming around it to flank the last remaining US member to hold that mound I caught him by surprise while he was still firing in the opposite direction. However, four dead guys were sitting hunkered around him so for everyones' safety I yelled, "bang, bang!" and just got lit up. One of those dead US members and myself had a misunderstanding and he went to an organizer who got everything straightened out. He was a younger player, which spoke highly as to his respect for the game and how things should be handled so kudos to "playboy" for being responsible and honorable. Also, after that mound was taken a lot of insurgents rushed over to hold it and a US sniper was pummeling some of you kids and you didn't call your hits. That is not responsible and not very honorable at all. In the same breath there were also some US not calling their hits (had you in the scope- seen them bounce off of your sweet a** molle vests, you'd look down and then around and keep moving like it never happened). I guess it'll happen everywhere. As long as you realize there'll be problems wherever you go, then it doesn't make it so much a problem. I had a blast. Thanks to the 91st. Your roleplayers were awesome. Dirka Dirka and all of that.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stewb_10 View Post

2) US forces didn't cover the back door. (tactical planning by leaders)
Not totally true. US command was told that the Insurgents were defending key points and thier first objective was to intercept the Ranger team. We were informed that we had no objective that was to be held. In a nutshell, there was no position for the insurgents to capture for points, hence the reason for not defening the spawn point. If the spawn point was given as an objective then this was a opperational mistake.

Once again, not bad planning but bad communication of objectives to team commanders.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:51 PM
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one incident occurred when me and other kid were standing you in the open facing the US controlled large dirt mound, i don't know whether the guy was getting mad or not, but he was laying tons on bbs up in the wind, and they were all falling short. i hope that he didnt think he was hitting us, but then he got one burst toward us at that distance they were hitting 10 foot groups. he hit the guy beside me, but missed me, and i 'drug' the guy to safety. whoever that was, i want you to know that we were 100% honest in calling our hits, your bbs were landing 20' in front, i even pointed to the places they hit on the ground, just so you knew.

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Not totally true. US command was told that the Insurgents were defending key points and thier first objective was to intercept the Ranger team. We were informed that we had no objected that was to be held. In a nutshell, there was no position for the insurgents to capture for points, hence the reason for not defening the spawn point. If the spawn point was given as an objective then this was a opperational mistake.

Once again, not bad planning but bad communication of objectives to team commanders.
aaahh, i see. that makes a lot more sense, but i mean, in a milsim event, you still should protect yourself. even if we would have known we couldn't take it, we would have still rammed up your butts in the woods and destroyed you from your 6. if you think about it, why would we sit on your main spawn and camp if we had the chance to kill you all from behind? the key is that we still assumed you on our 12. i think that is one of the keys to understanding what happened.
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  #67  
Old 07-15-2007, 04:56 PM
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Al Najaf

Firstly for your first large event on a real piece of land, this was a pretty good game. Secondly war is hell, and while airsoft may be a lot cooler somebody is going to come out on top.

Things that when right:
-My weapon worked flawlessly… as usual.
-Medic rules that require more than just cuddling are always better.
-Not having to walk all over god’s creation to respawn
-Game admin managing to see problems and try to fix them. Both during and after the game.
-Making a solid plan in the few minutes and seconds we had on the field


Things that need improving: (Most of which by myself and the players)
-The plan.
-Start times! Need to be set in stone for these large events… crono stations should not.
- If you tell your commanders that they have 15mins to organize make sure they get it. As it was the US troops got to their start-point and within minutes the game started. If that was to be the case then I should have been told where that point was going to be on the field long before the game started. And the 15 minutes I was promised down there were very much needed. As it stands I had not had time to impress upon everyone there positions in our formation nor to straighten out my como.
-My assumption that our spawn point was not in play and therefore needing no defenses proved to be a bad one since no one bothered to tell the enemy where it was (or at least how to identify it when found) and not to attack it.
-Communications! Good lord all I heard on the radio was “hey man where are you”… I’m down the hill behind a tree.” I realize that these short chats on the radio may help if you can see each other but leaves your commander with zero information.
-In that same vein, because you have no RTO means that command elements must talk to who ever is in charge. My only reliable contact throughout the day was the Rangers! When I called they responded and came running if I need it. I’m sure everyone was contributing, but nothing was done together and since we were out numbered we could not afford the disunity.
-Never put ANY spawn point in the field. It is hardly defendable for several reasons. The open field bordered by dense woods makes defending it hard, without large numbers. And the heat in the summer time drains peoples energy on a field that already wears people out.
-People when I ask that we stick together I mean it! Once we took the village, I lost control of half the US side, as radio communications disappeared right along with them. I will not lay blame since I bear a lot of it. But someone is not willing to work with their commanders (at any level) had better at least have to common decency to tell them. I don’t know if anyone thought that but the lack of information flowing to me was nil. And since I gave out all the info I had to at least the squad leaders but also to many rank and file players I had nothing more to send out and down the line to you all. I had to hope that you knew the missions and had the muscle to do it, which was not the case since we were outnumbered heavily.
-Lastly we needed to move around. I saw too many people get rolled over while they just sat there.
However I also am not advocating headlong frontal charges which seemed to be a favorite method yesterday.
If you guys like the way the Stikers operate then do like they do. Move aggressively when you can, and be willing to pull back off a bit if you have too. I know they do more, but I see it as less tactics and skill and more importantly a different mindset that separates them from everyone else.
If you can’t hit something now move to where you can, or force the enemy to move for you. If we wait for them to move on us it will be on their terms.

Anyway, live and learn.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:05 PM
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I would like to commend the my Team and the players who roled with us around the field the first half of the day. You should be proud. Your actions were in the true spirit of a Milsim game. We moved as a single unit, searched and captured. Our medic did a great job supporting us in the firefights. Everyone worked as a team. What you did, listening to your commander and carrying out your duty with out hesitation or question is the best example of what this event should have been about. There were times where we were just moving silently without any gun play and you never complained about head count or trigger time. The few members of Charlie who made it, it was a pleasure rolling with you.
I was a shame that eveyone else had a different experience form the get-go icluding some of our team members.

Also, don't "call out cheaters" in the forum. Those things need to be brought up to event organizers. If you see someone not calling hits and they can be identified, please inform someone at the event. Calling players out now serves no purpose.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by stewb_10 View Post

2) US forces didn't cover the back door. (tactical planning by leaders)
Not totally true. US command was told that the Insurgents were defending key points and thier first objective was to intercept the Ranger team. We were informed that we had no objected that was to be held. In a nutshell, there was no position for the insurgents to capture for points, hence the reason for not defening the spawn point. If the spawn point was given as an objective then this was a opperational mistake.

Once again, not bad planning but bad communication of objectives to team commanders.

--------------

Call it what you will we failed to hold a 50meter line from our spawn to the village. And after failing that only superior numbers or some serious breakout movement was going to save us.

Communication during the pregame briefing would have helped to define this stuff but would not have fixed the problem completely.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:09 PM
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Ok, I finally got the pictures I took up. There aren't too many, especially compared to how many Lu will crank out, but I did get a few. Some in the early morning, a few action shots, some Iraqi propoganda, the usual, lol.

Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mobiuso...7600839673258/
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:17 PM
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Stagg,
Sorry that we got sepparated from you. We got split up on the edge of the Village. It was either move into the woods or lose the fight. Our remaining force roled around to regroup. We had communication problems. My teams RTO ended up not making it to the event. He was sick.
To hell in a hand basket faster than you can say it. Like you said live and learn.

See everyone at the next one.
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Last edited by Evil Head; 07-15-2007 at 06:02 PM.
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  #72  
Old 07-15-2007, 05:33 PM
Oddjob
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The bright side to all this is that we can take the good and bad and use it to our advantage for future events. Innovative ideas for spawn points, Medics (why not have combat life-savers with one bandage instead of someone getting stuck with medic duty?), missions and general milsim improvements can be introduced. And lastly, the need for structure, structure and more structure. Great events are headed our way from this learning experience if the community at large is willing to cooperate with organizers to work within the spirit of the event instead along its boundaries just to get over and rack up kills.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
Medics (why not have combat life-savers with one bandage instead of someone getting stuck with medic duty?)

Great Idea, similiar to Med Packs from Doom. It would put me out of a job though, lol.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by stewb_10 View Post
IMHO, either way we rape you guys, either at the spawn or on your 6. that needed to be prevented by tactical planning IMHO. Thats rule #1 protect your flanks and your 6. you guys didn't. in its essence, the US got outflanked and crushed, the vehicle for crushing was bad, but it would've happened another way even if it hadn't happened that way. AGAIN IMHO.
Stewb, please choose your words carefully. There's only one thing worse than a sore loser! Gloating is disrespectful to those players who came and ended up on the losing team. For every mislim event there are volunteers who are going to end up on the losing team. We all assume this when we sign up. There are plenty of good players and honerable players on the US side and there is no reason to rub anything in their face.
Saying what you just said is the best way to create sore losers. You should thank those who paid $25 to give you someone to shoot.
Bad form Stewb!

If airsoft turns into win or lose, then it's done. It will go the way of paintball. Players will be more intertesed in winning then playing their role in a milsim event. Win at all cost! Win and rub dirt in the face of the losers! Great way to ruin the game IMO!
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Last edited by Evil Head; 07-15-2007 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:44 PM
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They did do a restart once there was about 20 U.S. soldiers left. Once they announced the restart about 30 insurgents left and the U.S. soldiers were greatly outnumbered. We weren't allowed to leave the tree line as one of the stipulations for the restart. I remember them making one push towards the village then after that, nothing. We sat and waited for about 20 minutes then found out that the majority of the U.S. soldiers that were left, had left so they were down to about half of their numbers. We saw no point in staying to slaughter the few remaining U.S. soldiers so we just left after that.
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