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  #26  
Old 01-08-2009, 08:44 PM
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just to clarify,
the guys in question were arrayed along a river in various positions, ranging in groups of one to three players. I had a NOD, the other players had a full moon, various illumination tools on and off at various times, and at one point, several flares. I Crossed the river with three other players on my flanks and guided them through a swamp and along the river line to a bridge my team had failed to take by frontal assault. We used stealth and observation to find their leader, after which I approached him while the other players gave overwatch. I listened as he discussed the positions of his forces in four foxholes along the river giving overlapping fields of fire to the bridge and using an overlapping use of flashlight bursts whenever there was a threat to isolate targets with minimal light signature and maximum firepower. (It was an excellent tactic but failed to account a rearguard assault)

Once he was finished, I jumped into the first foxhole, tapped him on the shoulder and presented my carbine's muzzle to the other two players, and softly told them they were to surrender. They did so. I then repeated physical contact with player via shoulder tapping and presenting a credible threat to the remaining groups of players until the river was clean.

To be fair at one point I turned around and a kid had me dead to rights, but was not paying attention. I engaged him with a tap on teh knee and a presentable threat, and he accepted.

In all cases I did not reveal myself until I had assessed the situation, and entered each engagement with a high degree of confidence that I had the situation under control. In all instances, I was prepared to be shot up close in my attempts, and prepared to shoot, semi auto with a 315 fps CA XM177 center mass on each target. Trust me it was a thrilling experience for all involved.

I have since purchased a G+P IR laser so I can actually shoot from a distance. Tornado and James Boom grenades also help for clusters of surprised players. I just snagged some re-useable flashbangs, but those were not available at the time nor would that would have accomplished the stealthy insertion.

No group was unmanageable in size and my surprise was both total and presented in such a manner that a reasonable person would be shocked and likely (but not guaranteed, it was still a gamble on my part) give up. At no point did I attempt to kill without shooting from a distance of more than 10 feet, or more than two players (not counting the third I had tapped in two of the holes) This was not a room clearing game breaker nor was it an attempt to score whole teams without a plan to deal with their potential resistance. At all points I had reasonable friendly cover on my 6 should anything go wrong.

the issue is control, and balance.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:57 PM
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In Someones post i cant remember, he sadi the guy pointed his weapn with out looking and yelled bang, wich from what i can and still understand is blind fireing correct ?, and if so he should have by all means been ignored and rightlfully shot multiple times.

But on the Flip side of this on the occasions i was shot WAY inside MED inside a building i simply called them out as well and after short " disscussions" its always been resovled resepctfully and with proper " adult" or mature disscusion of who was where, where the actual barrel was pointed ect ect it simply came down to a " would you wana be shot in the head that close"? or shot period that close ?
Heck no but all in all most of the bang bangs ive tried lol failed miserably AFTER i saw just how silly it was to try it
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:01 PM
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I'm sure I'll get hated on for saying this, but I don't subscribe to "bang bang" or safety kills.

Let's say you sneak up on someone and call a safety kill, and he turns and fires on you. Who is out? I would argue that the person who was shot is out. The game has a mechanic for being eliminated, and it's being hit with a BB. I don't really think it's a safety issue, it's a cop out. I'm not a fan of non-working grenades being tossed into a room and saying that everyone in there is dead as well.

What's next? Calling in a pretend air strike and leveling the whole playing field?
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
I'm sure I'll get hated on for saying this, but I don't subscribe to "bang bang" or safety kills.

Let's say you sneak up on someone and call a safety kill, and he turns and fires on you. Who is out? I would argue that the person who was shot is out.
Who cares? I would rather just call myself out than injure someone or even get them pissed off at me. It's just a game.

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I don't really think it's a safety issue, it's a cop out. I'm not a fan of non-working grenades being tossed into a room and saying that everyone in there is dead as well.
It certainly is a safety issue. When you have been playing for awhile you get to see all kinds of nastiness from point blank shots. Including but not limited to shattered teeth and multiple deep bleeding wounds.

Quote:
What's next? Calling in a pretend air strike and leveling the whole playing field?
Heh... you are showing your green. We did "pretend airstrikes" at Op: Boiling Point, and that certainly wasn't the first event to incorporate them.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
I'm sure I'll get hated on for saying this, but I don't subscribe to "bang bang" or safety kills.

Let's say you sneak up on someone and call a safety kill, and he turns and fires on you. Who is out? I would argue that the person who was shot is out. The game has a mechanic for being eliminated, and it's being hit with a BB. I don't really think it's a safety issue, it's a cop out. I'm not a fan of non-working grenades being tossed into a room and saying that everyone in there is dead as well.

What's next? Calling in a pretend air strike and leveling the whole playing field?
I second. I dont aim for sensitive parts. "Bang" kills are arguable and can easily flip the outcome of the game.... Getting shot with a BB is not.
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2009, 10:14 PM
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I don't normally bang unless I just have their head clearly marked from very close range. Other than that I go for the rig.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Garcia View Post
I noticed something at the Battlefront Open Play last sunday. During I do believe the second to last game, I was following a group of guys, maybe 3-4 including myself, and we all stacked up around the corner of ammo dump 1. A kid with an M14 SOCOM pops out of othe window and calls safety on all of us. I was still around the corner and out of view except for the barrel of my weapon, lugging a SAW and all, but I decided to give him his safety kill anyway. Go back, respawn, follow a different set of guys back to ammo dump 1, thinking someone must have cleared that room out, we all stack up on the corner. The same kid pops out of the window and calls safety on us again, which I was completely out of view so I didn't give let him have it.

My question is, is there a set number of safety kills you can get at once? If you're facing multiple targets can you get them all in one safety kill? I figure safety kills should only be one at a time, or as fast as you can draw on each seperate target and call safety. What do you guys think?
Garcia, I was that kid with the m14 and I knew there was more than one person around that corner because I heard you guys talking, when I popped up I said safety once and than when one of your other guys pointed his weapon at me I said it again. I came up thinking that all of those immediately in my view would be out because if it were not for safety issues I would have came out firing on full auto.

In hindsight those around the corner should not have walked away because as it has been said they were out of sight.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
It certainly is a safety issue. When you have been playing for awhile you get to see all kinds of nastiness from point blank shots. Including but not limited to shattered teeth and multiple deep bleeding wounds.

I still have a mark on my finger where I was shot during a game in early November. Heck, I have scars from paintball that have been around for years and years. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of the "bunkering" tactic in tourney paintball where you flank and shoot someone at point blank range. Would I intentionally shoot someone in the face? No, certainly not. But we wear safety gear, that's what it's there for. I'd rather be bleeding and be certain that I was hit than to have someone say "bang bang, you're dead". But that's just me, I must enjoy the pain...which is why I was married for 8 years.

In my distorted mind, this is a simulation game, not backyard cowboys and indians between 8 year olds with pretend ammo. Knife kills are a different story. Heck, I would congratulate someone with enough skill to sneak up behind me like that. But I dunno, there's just something that doesn't sit right with me about safety kills.


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Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
Heh... you are showing your green. We did "pretend airstrikes" at Op: Boiling Point, and that certainly wasn't the first event to incorporate them.

That was part of the event, and is actually pretty cool. I was poking fun at an individual player just pulling crap out of thin air.
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  #34  
Old 01-08-2009, 10:45 PM
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That's why we have "Bang, Bang" kills so no one bleeds, I can tell you getting shot in the face is no fun it's happend to me before because the guy shot point blank instead of calling safety when he came into the room I was in. so "bang, bang" is there for a good reason.
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  #35  
Old 01-08-2009, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Browncoat View Post
I still have a mark on my finger where I was shot during a game in early November. Heck, I have scars from paintball that have been around for years and years. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of the "bunkering" tactic in tourney paintball where you flank and shoot someone at point blank range. Would I intentionally shoot someone in the face? No, certainly not. But we wear safety gear, that's what it's there for. I'd rather be bleeding and be certain that I was hit than to have someone say "bang bang, you're dead". But that's just me, I must enjoy the pain...which is why I was married for 8 years.
This isn't paintball. If I wanted to play a sport where everything was about winning and losing so I could win some sort of prize or pride by shooting the most people I could, then I would play paintball.

I would rather someone just say bang-bang then shoot me in the face. If you do shoot me in the face at point blank and it isn't an accident, we are going to have a problem. And I am not the only one that feels this way.

Don't bring the paintball mentality into airsoft. If you want to play paintball, then go play paintball.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:52 PM
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As much as I want to be fair and nice with everyone, I just don't get it. Why you guys always want to push the safety envelope? You guys must stop and start thinking further than your nose and see how bad a small little bang bang incident can degenerate. You guys are new to the sport and you are acting like if you knew everything and it was all good!

How many veterans will you need to finally convince you that a point blank shot or an unfortunate blind firing can lead to teeth loss, physical attitude and even in some case, attack, injuries and arrest. The problem is not the little "you should not have bang banged me because I could have shot you", it is the aftermath, right after the guy start arguing that you had no chances and your teammates got involved....

If the problem with safety kill (I am talking about bang bang here) is only to educate players to use it properly, than fine, let's teach players. I usually try to explain the difference and how to use before every events at Springfield for sure. Good behavior start with education, not repression/aggression.

And if you guys are not pleased to see that a player is gentlemen enough to not shoot while he could have without a doubt, you are definitely not welcome at Springfield. I am truly sorry and I hope this is only forum talkings but safety is first for me and my players, The super duper kungfu seal member comes after.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrick View Post

Absolutely not! I will never be group banged willingly again.
LOL Mavrick doesnt like being group banged! iI dont either.
I would go on to make more get banged jokes if I myself wasn't in a safety kill situation this past sunday. My uncle and I were stacked along a wall, and i was at the corner, as seen in the battlefront video, a guy comes up, full auto and lit me up point blank, stuck his silencer behind me and shot my uncle from about 5 feet away. It still hurts quite a bit, he drew blood on my hip and broke the skin on my hip. Not being a wuss and complaining about how bad it hurt, but it doesn't feel good, and for those of you who dont use bang bang, i encourage you to do so, being shot point blank doesn't feel good. Mavrick and Son of Liberty, you guys both being mature, you guys both aren't stupid enough to fire on someone inches in front of you, so i'm not grouping you with the people that have done it.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:32 PM
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We all know the risks we take in the sport. We've all played at games hosted by us where 400 fps had no engagement distance outdoors. Yet, by switching the game to cqb at 350 we're now worried about safety.

You will get hurt in airsoft. Threatening others or puffing up in order to scare them into not shooting you at close range is pointless.

Anyone within their meds can shoot you.. and it will hurt and it might knock your teeth out. If i shoot you with a gun thats 300 and it takes out your fronts..It's your fault. Where's your mask? Where's your mouth guard? Why aren't you wearing extra clothing.? because it wouldn't fit under your tactical bra? .. ok?

Get my drift.

And on the other end we're encouraging people to fire rockets into widows occupied by people.. and not providing

A MEDs
B FPS restrictions
C Bleed off valves
D PSI restrictions
E Projectile weight restrictions

But a nerf rocket can take the wood off a door hinge?

But i can't believe anyone would want to take away knife kills in close quarters. it's less dangerous?

NO!

But we learn.. and we create rules for safety..Now if people follow those rules ... I just don't think we should get mad at them.

Safety kills show good sportsmanship and honor.
Only safety kill inside of 10 ft from the direction 90 degrees to 270 degrees of your opponent.

"bang safetykill"

You do not have to honor

Knife kill Only with a touch to the shoulder

"your out"

In CQB you may bang your opponent by pointing your gun at them and saying "bang" Your opponent must be looking at you for this to work. You must bang each individual person you wish to kill. This is done usually at relative muzzle distance.

If you are unable to perfrom any of these tasks it is honorable to finish the attack. Assuming if you didn't you could receive the bbs. At this point however shooting in the face is considered "bad play" "poor form" or "show" But if it be a true accident..**** em.. he shouldn't of ****in been there. But, hold your gun lower next time or you might catch an *** beating from some guy who'd rather attack you then cry in front of his freinds..

We're all walking around crouched with guns pointed at eye level. someone is going to get hit in the face. I thought we all knew that. I've been playing long enough to have been shot in the face at close ranges.

Fox tried to take my head off with a bolt action well inside pistol range. At the time i didn't know enough to tea bag him for it.. (btw he got me with his glock in the end). Point is it's just how we are with the rockets. Because theirs alot of ignorance about the subject people don't pay it any mind. We've agreed to the safety rules now don't get mad over spilt bbs.

Sry so long but i think the tempers that flare are the worst "poor play" ever.

H

Ps I'm diggin the rockets and grenade ideas though.

Last edited by john; 01-08-2009 at 11:34 PM.
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  #39  
Old 01-08-2009, 11:38 PM
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John, you miss the point entirely. Go back and reread mine and Blade's posts.

And I didn't see anyone threatening anyone, and no one mentioned nerf rockets, so I don't know where all that came from. We don't need any red herrings in this discussion.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:47 PM
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I'm personally torn on the whole bang bang subject. I’ve been a victim on both sides of the argument. I guess for the sake of safety, "bang bang" is the logical option. In a perfect world, I'd agree with S.o.L. and Mavrick, but I just can't rely on rig and boot shots 100% of the time. Simply for my own inquisition, I'm going to throw this on the table. Does anyone call Parlay? I’ve heard Blade say this during his pre-game pep talks. I have never seen this used or have heard of anyone using it. I'm not even fully sure how it works. Is this used? Is this practical? Is it a replacement for, or an alternative to, the "bang bang" option?
Thank You Blade
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:49 PM
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Maybe I'm not making myself clear enough.

I'm not advocating shooting someone at point blank range, which is what seems to keep coming up. This thread is about a group vs. 1 scenario, which is what I've been referring to. Had I been in that group, I probably would've shot at the guy calling the safety kill. Maybe he gets me, maybe he doesn't, but I'm not going to accept a safety kill in a group like that. If he had the time to point his gun at each one of us and "bang bang" every one, that's a different story. But I kinda doubt that's the case.

Would I accept a safety kill 1 on 1 from someone at close range? Sure I would. I don't want to lose teeth or be scarred for life...I already have enough of those. I've been lit up enough times to know exactly what it feels like.

I understand the point of the safety kill, but in the scenario of this thread, it seems to me that the guy was using it as a crutch. As for me personally, as you can see from my signature, I don't plan on being that close to anyone. I can only speculate at this point. Would I call a safety kill on someone at close range? I suppose it depends on the range. At 50-20 feet, I'd probably aim for the leg and take the shot. Anything less, probably not.

I'm not so bent on winning that it would piss me off to have someone I intended to safety kill suddenly turn and shoot me. It just seems to me that safety kills bring a whole "Han shot first" scenario into the game that could bring more heated tempers than actually being shot at close range.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:03 AM
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Well i think i offered an explanation of the rules as blade had mentioned.

In regards to your comment about getting upset.. please read my comment about wearing a mask.

If someone fired a rocket into your window at 30 ft you prolly wouldn't be mad.. but you should. So it's relevant in explaining why people shouldn't take your attitude of having a problem with people and should instead learn to protect themselves..

fps is relevant to safety in close quarters.

All you've said is that getting shot in the face on purpose makes you angry and that people should go play paintball if they want to win or lose.. I think this is irrelevant. edit: my bad you also managed to plug your event and talk about airstrikes in a thread on bang kills.

Besides.. noone was talking about you till now

Telling others to piss off and play paint ball is infact the only red herring i see.

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  #43  
Old 01-09-2009, 12:06 AM
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Actually Browncoat, your signature will help me on this one. I used to be sniper. What annoyed me the most is when, as a sniper, I was getting too close to engage because of my rifle but did not have the time or the capacity to withdraw my sidearm. At that point, I was pretty much doomed. With the use of the safety kill, it would have allowed me to still kill the guy but due to airsoft limitation, would have done in a safety manner. The big problem here is that people started to say a safety kill should not be mandatory, which mean anyone noticing a sniper is at them could simply ignore the safety kill and shoot back. while it sounds ok, it created a "I will never take or give a safety kill and I will most likely get hit or be missed". the safety kill is purely and simply based on the fact in real life, we could all shoot accurately and effectively. This is all about respect and honor.

Browncoat, I also agree with you, safety kills bring a lot of "Han shot first" but if we educate each other enough, such occasion should not rise very often and if it does, you then call for a parlay.

Gascan, a parlay is when players get to close to each, could easily kill each other but decide to "parlay" just to avoid blood shell. A Parlay is not a "I won't shoot you and you won't shoot me". It is a way to get all players involved in the parlay out of the kill zone. So technically, a parlay is a automatic death without firing. Are players abusing the parlay? of course, we caught it on tape at Irene when one of my teammate shot the guy by surprise and when that guy turned around, asked for a parlay. The guy is already dead so no big deal but he simply removed my guy from the action, which was uncalled for.

As long as airsoft will be based around honor, we must and believe that each other will have enough maturity and respect to take the proper decisions when such moments occur.

..and I lost what I was trying to say....
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:16 AM
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no i think you got the point home blade.

Teach your fellow airsofters and also make them aware of the dangers.

At least 6 times i had to explain to people this year that it is not okay to have a 600fps rifle. and that in fact it's more of a gun than an airsof gun.

H
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:18 AM
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Executing a "saftey kill" should work when good judgement and sportsmanship are applied. Receiving a "safety kill" should work when good judgement and sportsmanship are applied. Anyone not using a "safety kill" are placing "kill count" ahead of good judgement and sportsmanship. Anyone not honoring a "safety kill" is placing "ego" ahead of good judgement and sportsmanship.

Conclusion: Exercise good judgement and sportsmanship when playing airsoft.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:19 AM
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I am not too worried about the 600fps rifle, it is more the players thinking they can dodge bbs left and right....
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:26 AM
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I knife kill, Someone turns around hits their face on my gun,bumps their arm, gets scared and flails...Its still a hell of a lot safer then BOOM point blank with 430+ sniper rifle, and alot better then boom boom boom with a 380 FPS side arm.

Nobody should flail at an event, startled yeah, but you know there is the chance so its not random people should be in control at least that much. I have done it enough to know th reactions...Most of the time its a quick turn then deer in headlights...A few arm bumps is as much as I have got.

Away from the point, my person meathod is my gun barrel pressed firmly into a armored spot where they can feel and a calm "Surrender?" If you sound loud or panic they will panic too.

I beleive the safety kills should be honored...But unless you can knife kill them IE from behind them, if you turn the corner face to face its "Parlay" and walk away...Or if you come up on a group who is unaware it should be a kill...Never should there be a face to face safety kill. IMO its parlay.

That is what I do, that is how I see it done the most safe, and that is how its done at battlefront for the most part.

-Recon

EDIT: PS:
I prefer to be shot pointblank then safety kills. Unless someone is shooting me in the mouth or the eyes, or somewhere that will cause a large amount of damage that will never heal...Im not scared of blood, stitches, bruises, broken bones. I do not want a BB lodged into my bones though. Airsoft is a sport where you shoot people, I came into the sport expecting these things, granted I was wrong by a longshot it is one of the safer sports around...I was sad, I quit MX because of the life loss factor and stuff...Too many close calls at the dunes. I know it sounds kind of sick but I wish the sport was more gorey. But then again legal troubles and all. But I found I love the honor and pure sport of Airsoft so I want every to remember...Safety First. Let us think more for the life of the sport then the honor an of an extra kill/win.
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Last edited by RabidRecon; 01-09-2009 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:51 AM
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I think I read this but can't remember but at any rate. I feel that bang bang should be used if you are close it is just the good thing to do. Been bang banged one on one and as part of a bunch of guys. Don't like that but hey if you know that might happen use a nade. Take everyone with you. Can't argue with that. Sure everyone is dead but hey no complaints. You should go through and point the rifle at a person say bang bang, move your rifle to the next say bang bang again and so on and so forth. Chances are you are not going to get them all but hey everyone is safe and it is just a game.
But yes there will be times when you get into a turn the corner and oh **** there are a bunch of guys say bang bang take at least one with you and accept the fact that you ended up being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sure if this was real life you might be able to spray and take everyone down but hey we all like to walk away at the end of the day. So just have fun understand that ya dumb things like that can happen. Nothing is perfect and have fun. But if you know you might come on a big bunch of people have a nade out and deal with it that way. Just my thoughts.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:51 AM
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john,

I'm not totally sure what you are trying to say. Your writing style can be a little confusing.

I told no one to "piss off and go play paintball", I said if you want to play paintball, then play paintball. Not play airsoft with a paintball mentality. Browncoat adequately explained his earlier comments which I misunderstood, and we are apparently in agreement. If you take offense at these remarks, does that mean you feel it is OK to purposely shoot people in the face or at point blank because "We all know the risks we take in the sport"? Because on one hand that it what it seems you are saying, but some of you comments indicate otherwise.

But just so we are clear, if someone purposely shoots me (or anyone else) in the face or body at pointblank, I am going to be upset, regardless of mask or not. I am referring to the type of tactic Browncoat referred to as "bunkering" and actions similar to that. If it is my game, you will be asked to leave. If it is not my game, I will go to the organizer and request that he/she ask you to leave. If you consider that a "threat", then so be it. There is a difference between a true accident, and an accident that results from reckless and unsafe behavior. The former should be expected and planned for, the latter should not be excused.

As for nerf rockets, I have never had one shot near me or anywhere near me. I never stated how I would react if one was shot at me or near me. So please do not assume to know my reaction if one was shot at me or near me. I'm not sure how often nerf rockets are used up north, as I have only been to handful of games up there, but they are not really used down here from what I have seen. If you feel there are safety concerns with nerf rockets that some are not taking into consideration, then by all means create a topic about that, as it sounds like it might be an important topic to discuss.

The point is, use a safety kill so you're not being a douche bag. Do it out respect for your fellow airsofters. I've seen disagreements about safety kills, and the two players simply walked in opposite directions and restarted (as long as no one was ever actually hit with BBs). I feel that is a perfectly acceptable solution. I always feel it's best to err on the side of caution. Take the example that was originally posted in this thread and compare that to an incident at the exact same game where someone just fired at near point blank and someone ended up losing a tooth. I think the result of the example in this thread is preferable to the one that resulted in losing a tooth. The worst case scenario is no one gets hurt. But maybe that's just me...

If some people feel otherwise, then perhaps we need a new "extreme" game designation?

edit: RabidRecon, you may rather get shot at pointblank range than a safety kill, but that doesn't mean everyone else would. So unless you go around asking everyone first, you should probably assume not everyone shares your desire for more gore.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:15 AM
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I believe that some of these posts have made me realize what I love about the sport, Airsoft is a sport based entirely around the honor and respect between players. You must honor that you have been hit even though most of the time the only person that saw the hit may be yourself. You must also respect that even though the noob that lobbed that shot had no idea that he hit you, you call yourself out.

Which brings me to the point of this thread. Having been personally shot in the face on more than one occasion I can tell you that dental bills are not pretty. My twin brother can attest to that as well with a root canal bill that he had to pay after BF 5 last year. Bang bang, knife, and safety kills are completely and entirely necessary for airsoft and I believe that they should be strictly enforced. Believe it or not the majority of airsofters that I have met are just out there to have fun. I would hate to see another person get shot in the face just because he believes that shooting him is a more definitive way of taking a person out of the game. A persons safety should be the most important rule above all else
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