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Rating: 8 votes, 5.00 average.

Dear Systema, THE BEARING IS WRONG!

Posted 04-02-2010 at 12:58 PM by Scorpion
Updated 04-12-2010 at 06:45 AM by Scorpion (Clarity)
Hello Systema fans all around and Systema PTW owners in AO, this is a notice to Systema on our behalf.

Dear Systema, YOUR BEARING PLACEMENT SUCKS!

Did you guys just fall asleep on the job, or did you decide to quit while you were behind? I am so angry about what I just found today while building a customer's PTW5(MP5 model PTW). To catch my readers up on what I've experienced so far with my personal PTW here is a short list.

1) All 7 of my Systema PTW magazines failed to feed BBs until I stripped each one down completely and then modified various working part and the feed lips to flow BBs without issue.

2) My PTW motor failed due to a broken winding within the armature structure. Go read up on the PTW forums about this one, you have to send your motor off to get it completely custom rebuilt to a serviceable specification or else you're subject to purchasing a new motor which will STILL fail due to windings breaking or the comm surface becoming so destroyed it cannot properly receive electrical flow from the brushes!

3) The upper receiver of my PTW literally split into two pieces while I was firing. It completely sheared off just behind the threads that the barrel nut attaches to and slid off into my forearm, inner barrel and all. Distorted Axis of the STRIKERS witnessed this and was very helpful with troubleshooting with me in the field, but came to the conclusion that the only time this failure is seen is when the buffer tube cap is shimmed to far out and causes excessive pressure on the forward assembly. Coming from an automotive background this type of answer is akin to "you just need to change your headlight fluid". Yeah right, how about you make it so the receiver is of a stronger aluminum that won't fail. Oh and for the record I use my metric micrometer and the stock tube is recessed exactly 2.1mm within the lower receiver as per your manual and the stock cap had last been adjusted by one of your authorized PTW shops(Airsoftarms). So either your instructions are wrong or you actually made one of the lowest grade receivers I've ever seen.

4) The Hop-up gives horrible groupings! So bad that a stock Echo1 can out shoot most standard PTWs. That's just pathetic since the PTW HOP and barrel costs as much as the entire Echo1 AEG. This was remedied by yet MORE custom modifications to install AEG components to make the HOP more consistent and much more adjustable.


So now that you're all caught up on my personal PTW here is what just put me over the edge on Systema and their endless bull****. I am assembling a PTW5(MP5PTW) for a customer and I cannot complete the build without performing a custom modification to the gearbox.

The lower bearing of the Sector gear is exactly 0.70mm too far to the right and is coming in contact with the outer face of the spur gear teeth. You cannot rotate the gears by hand without using what I'll call excessive force to drive the spur gear to rotate by cutting into the bearing lip. There are clear surface wear markings along every tooth of the spur gear now to show a 0.5mm width contact area where each tooth cuts into and passes along the surface of the flange on the sector gear bearing.



This is completely UNACCEPTABLE Systema. A $1000 TOY gun and you can't even give the gears proper clearance? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING OVER THERE? You say you offer the best most advanced AEG on the market. You claim to have superior engineering by way of state of the art technology. Well I'm calling your bluff yet again. You're just another cheap rip off. Sure the price of admission to this ride is higher, but in the end the result is the same. Here I sit, having to apply custom modifications to fix your **** ups. I was sitting in this same exact spot with my normal AEGs.

And here is what a modified custom fit bearing looks like in a PTW5 to allow proper gear clearance. Yes, the bearing will be epoxied in place to prohibit any rotation within the bearing hole.



To the credit of Systema USA(Z-Shot), you gentlemen have always given exceptional service and if you could have matched the Redwolf offer from long ago I would have purchased from you instead. I'd also like to credit Airsoftarms for helping me with a couple initial custom modifications to my cylinder when I had first purchased the PTW. All of the dealings I have had locally with Systema representatives has been stellar, you are all great people, so please do not take my words as directed to you. I am only after Systema engineering and product design.


In closing,

LOL!
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Comments

  1. Old
    Torque's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by john
    I've thought of selling all my stuff and getting a ptw a bunch of times. but i'm the kind of guy who likes different platforms and looking at them on my wall. Each one has a purpose and gives a different feel. It wasn't is it worth it. It's do i want to? Now i'm getting into the gas gun stuff and i'm excited just because when i open the top covers i see stuff that looks like a gun and not a sewing machine. That makes me fuzzy. Even though i know my classic won't shoot like an aeg just because of recoil alone. But i like that.
    John, this is exactly my whole approach to airsoft as well. You could have pulled your words directly out of my brain! You know, it's just a preference thing. That's all.

    But, I will just say this. I've never been a fan of folks who can't see the flaws in a brand or things they are attached to in life, regardless of how much they pay to own it. Because that is a complete illusion. It's not reality, it's just justifying yourself and why you bought something and why you think it is the best ever. I can see flaws in every single gun I own. And I'm not about to sing the praises of any platform out there because they all have flaws IMO.

    Hell if we want to talk about reliability, the old classic JAC gas guns were much more 'reliable' and could go for many more rounds without issue than most of the AEG platforms on the market today. And they didn't cost an arm and a leg to fix either when they did stop working. Just a few o-rings, a little lube, and you're done. Not saying they are the best airsoft guns ever overall, but from a certain viewpoint (i.e., reliability) spank everything else out there.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John
    How many more runs of the ctw do you think it will take to fix problems?
    Totally agreed. Even though they copied the PTW, who will really care in the long run? Almost no one runs a TM anymore, even though all the other companies 'copied' their stuff.
    Posted 04-07-2010 at 11:19 AM by Torque Torque is offline
    Updated 04-07-2010 at 12:35 PM by Torque
  2. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    LOL John, I have the straight six and I certainly don't race it. Not too get too far off topic, but It's definitely not the button, its a well know problem in the E46 models. Basically a cheap piece of plastic is what the cable attaches to, and that piece breaks fairly often. The cable and track assembly is what they call the "window regulator". I don't do ANY work on cars myself, but if you own an E46 for any period of time, you get proficient in replacing this part yourself fairly quickly!

    Back to the topic, I personally saw a TW5 gearbox today that certainly did NOT have this problem. The premise that the TW5 suffers from a design or engineering failure is TRUE(at least in regards to the issue described in this blog), and this blog shows the error in design of a PTW5 gearbox for the interest of the PTW/PTW5 community, in the pursuit of helpful information regarding PTW design and reliability flaws.
    Posted 04-08-2010 at 12:06 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
    Updated 04-10-2010 at 06:18 PM by Scorpion (For clarity and certainty.)
  3. Old
    Son of Liberty's Avatar
    So Loc, because you saw one that didn't suffer this problem means all of Aaron's information is incorrect? Don't quite see the logic there. So did this TW5 user drill another hole for the gear to not fit properly then masterfully fill in the other hole?Or do you refuse to believe anything that Aaron has said is the truth? Because honestly I don't see how such a blatant flaw such as the one pointed out in this thread can be nothing short of a factory mistake. Once again, please reiterate your thought when it makes sense.
    Posted 04-08-2010 at 07:07 PM by Son of Liberty Son of Liberty is offline
    Updated 04-08-2010 at 10:16 PM by Son of Liberty
  4. Old
    Torque's Avatar
    SoL, I think that Loc believes what Aaron has observed, and is saying that somehow this was a factory one-off mistake. And I agree that if this is not indicative all all TW5 gearboxes, then all of them should not be vilified. Unfortunately you'd have to spot check hundreds of TW5 gearboxes to be sure it hasn't happened before.

    I think this blog has run its course. And I also believe that it has been an interesting conversation. I hope PTW owners can continue to have open dialog about their PTWs, and we can all learn something in the process. Folks that own other makes/models should do the same (In fact, ask me about my WE M4 GBB sometime, and I'll be glad to give you a straight, unbiased assessment. No smoke, no BS. )

    Bottom line, is the PTW still an awesome piece of machinery? Absolutely! Sure it is. From a design and quality standpoint, it's heads and tails better than the standard AEG technology. No one can really deny that. So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here. But for the amount of money you pay, could Systema do a better job improving a few things? Sure then can.

    For example, I think it still baffles the mind that, after all these years of many design iterations, Systema cannot come up with a better stock hop up design for the PTW. I mean, it really has not changed much since the first design. And from what owners tell me, it's still not great, but could be great. And the mags apparently need a little more work. And their replacement parts are too expensive. It's just the little things like that Systema should focus on to make their customer base happier. Otherwise, it is clear that they make awesome products.

    Now let's see some different PTW models please!
    Posted 04-09-2010 at 07:43 AM by Torque Torque is offline
    Updated 04-09-2010 at 07:57 AM by Torque
  5. Old
    knightmare's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Torque
    Now let's see some different PTW models please!
    PTW36 what?
    Posted 04-09-2010 at 09:13 AM by knightmare knightmare is offline
  6. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Torque you have summed it all up perfectly! Thank you!


    Locutus says -

    Back to the topic, I personally saw a TW5 gearbox today that certainly did NOT have this problem. The premise that the TW5 suffers from a design or engineering failure is TRUE(at least in regards to the issue described in this blog), and this blog shows the error in design of a PTW5 gearbox for the interest of the PTW/PTW5 community, in the pursuit of helpful information regarding PTW design and reliability flaws.



    Locutus you're right! Now that your post is actually displaying correct information rather than your personal opinion, which in this case is crap.

    I took the pictures to two different Machine work shops that I have contact with in the automotive world and both confirmed the gearbox was cast and then either manually drilled and modified for final production or was placed in a CNC bench and refined to a predetermined layout. Thanks for trying to save Systema "face" again, but you're still wrong for posting what you did.

    And for everyone else, and the 3rd time in this blog, here is what has happened...

    1) The box was made incorrectly.
    2) It could have been the machinist's fault directly, or if the box is cast to a mold in one step then the casting was wrong.
    3) The box is now working at 100% in a fully assembled PTW5 without issue which means the bearing was the only issue with the installation and assembly.
    4) The pictures and measurements I took have been confirmed as a failure of design or production by 2 independent machine shops that construct custom vehicles and components for older vehicles by machinists with over 20 years of experience in their fields.
    5) See points 2, 3, and 4 before you even THINK about posting anymore bull**** opinions of what you THINK happened. Numbers, pictures, and machinists who have nothing to gain from me DON'T LIE.
    6) I still love my PTW m4, but I will NOT recommend ANY PTW5s on account of this issue and the fact the PTW M4 is a far easier platform to use and maintain.
    Posted 04-10-2010 at 06:12 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
    Updated 04-10-2010 at 06:18 PM by Scorpion
  7. Old
    ReverseFlank's Avatar
    Maybe you just built it wrong?
    Posted 04-10-2010 at 08:03 PM by ReverseFlank ReverseFlank is offline
  8. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Ok you get that one, because I know you're laughing as much as I am
    Posted 04-10-2010 at 08:52 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  9. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    Scorpion, are you aware this blog is a source of many jokes? I was not trying to save Systema any face, I was trying to save you some face. I personally don't care what people think of the TW5, I am not a fan of it so I have no dog in this fight.

    SOL, Torque understood my post perfectly, Aaron is trying to vilify all TW5's , as well as Systema Engineering and design, because he saw ONE defective unit.

    Aaron, I am not denying that the ONE unit you took pictures of has issues. But that is anecdotal and doesn't mean anything.

    This whole blog was pointless and I feel your only purpose in posting it was to create drama.

    Furthermore, don't EVER take my words again and edit them to something different than what I have said.
    Posted 04-11-2010 at 10:17 PM by Locutus Locutus is offline
    Updated 04-11-2010 at 10:59 PM by Locutus
  10. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    The source of jokes? Really?! It's already that popular! COOL! But why aren't these jokes posted...oh wait I know. They are only spoken in private since those people are too coward to say anything outside of their close friends. Yeah, ok. Carry on AO, you keep having fun. I'm just glad I could entertain and educate our members at the same time!

    Nope, Brian you're still wrong. I never once assumed or stated all PTW5 would suffer from this issue. I've only ever reported on this one finding and how it's not an acceptable product. I'm not causing drama by posting, AO is causing drama by responding in the way it has. I was just bringing the issue to the public eyes in case it ever happens again. This blog will serve the purpose of showing the corrective measures taken to allow the gearbox to work in the event warranty is not applicable to the product in question. PTW, AEG, MPEG, or LPEG alike, all could suffer from this issue and here is a solution!

    The blog is not pointless, as I just explained if you had thought outside of your personal situation then you would see how it can be related to many different gearboxes and help anyone who has seen this issue. I'll even edit the title to further help others! It'll be even better.

    Furthermore, don't EVER post your opinion trying to discredit what I wrote assuming you think you know what I'm trying to say. I've clearly explained how I'm not trying to vilify every PTW/PTW5 or the BMWs or whatever else was mentioned in here.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 06:44 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  11. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    I never said what I thought you were trying to say, I commented on what you DID say. If what you did say isn't what you meant to say, that is your fault, not mine.

    Quote:
    Nope, Brian you're still wrong. I never once assumed or stated all PTW5 would suffer from this issue.
    Really? In your original thread, I replied stating "I think what you have is a fluke or defect unique to that box, not intentional design."

    This is what you said:

    Quote:
    NO FREAKING WAY SIR! This is NOT a unique gearbox flaw. If that was the case then they drilled every bushing hole and every single cut on this gearbox was wrong and shifted to the right by 0.7mm. EVERY SINGLE CUT! Think about that for a minute. Since all other components fit in properly, the gear teeth have at least 80% surface contact, and the gears shim properly into their bearing holes this could only mean they have made all their gearboxes like this and no one has noticed the massive failure that is the PTW5.
    Now you are trying to backpedal to make yourself look better, forgetting what you have already said.

    People make jokes about this blog because of your inability to separate emotion from fact. If you had actually laid out the issue you encountered in a mature and rational way, left out the hyperbole and the "outrage" and refrained from jumping to conclusions, and I don't believe that would have happened.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 09:37 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
    Updated 04-12-2010 at 11:40 PM by Locutus
  12. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    You're right Brian. I'm sorry that I made it hard to read the blog. If it was easier to read then there wouldn't be any confusion.

    Please post pictures of the gearbox without issue. Or please find a gearbox without issue so we can close the discussion and you can honor my request to be proven wrong. It was posted multiple times afterall. As for separating emotion from fact, that's easily done. Just check out all the discussion that's happened since the blog ws created! All the elaboration on the topic and the details there were given in Brad's comments as well. We even examined the possibility that Systema could use mutiple machining processes to manufacture the gearbox and no one was sure how the processes were affected yet, or even at all, save for this one box.

    I never advocated all PTW were bad, nor do I agree with "PTW haters" or "PTW lovers". I agree with me, and I say all AEGs are unique in design and ability. Even with the flaws I wouldn't trade my PTW M4 for an AEG. Not picking sides, just putting more cards on the table

    Also please do keep up the good work on keeping misinformation off the site, it's always great to find good information to learn from about current issues with current products. Like this Blog.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 09:57 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  13. Old
    Locutus's Avatar

    Posted 04-12-2010 at 10:18 AM by Locutus Locutus is offline
  14. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    YESS!! Perfect! Now I am most curious of what gears were used as the gear in the PTW5 I assembled was silver in color, whereas yours is black. Perhaps the gear was wrong in my PTW5 box.

    Ok, Loc do you have a way to measure the length of the teeth on that spur gear? I'll see if I can get a hold of the PTW5 I built and we can compare the measurements. This could take all blame away from the bearing and introduce a whole new issue of the wrong gear being included with the gearbox! Oh this is fun!
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 10:26 AM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  15. Old
    Spectre's Avatar
    The bearing looks worn and there are metal shavings in the base of the spur-gear-well. That box is used correct? Looks like wear to me...
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 11:57 AM by Spectre Spectre is offline
  16. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    That certainly could be the case Spectre, but there is also the chance the shavings are from poor engagement on the piston rack teeth.

    Locutus, can you post pics of the spur gear teeth outer face? Also perhaps clean all the grease off the bearing and spur gear completely to allow a clean surface for observation in the photos?
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 12:05 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  17. Old
    Locutus's Avatar
    These pics were actually taken last week, but I don't remember any indications of abnormal wear on the bushing or indications that the gear was rubbing on the bushing currently or previously.

    Scorpion is going to stop by and take a look at it himself this evening, as he had some other questions he is hoping to answer as well.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 12:12 PM by Locutus Locutus is offline
    Updated 04-12-2010 at 12:24 PM by Locutus
  18. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    After Locutus contacted me this morning to send him my pictures, I decided to reread this topic and boy has it gone straight down the toilet. I'm not sure where people got confused or why, but there now seems to be more smoke being blown up people's A-holes, brown nosed apologize and a$$kissing than I can stand. You guys all know what happens when people assume things about other people's comments? They make an a$$ out of themselves. So lets set the BS aside for a moment and try to resolve this issue.

    Now in the attempt to get things back on track and to ensure all of this gets straightened up, I'm going to attempt to respond with facts and no BS so that everyone involved in this discussion knows exactly where I'm coming from so that there is no confusion whatsoever and so we're all on the same page.

    To start, I'm going to get Scorpion a measurement of the TW5 gear I have in hand later today. I'm going to make an educated guess that the gear from the TW5 Scorpion worked on is larger than the one I'm working on.

    Second. I took the liberty of also measuring the bearings from the TW5 gearbox and they all measured 8mm accross. I'm going to also point out that the bearing from Scorpion's photos look larger than the ones in the TW5 I'm working on, however photos can be deceiving and without an exact caliper measurement, I'm not sure of both are the same size.

    As far as the gear goes, I noticed the difference in the color of the spur gear originally when I compared the gearbox in hand to the picture you took. Keep in mind that the TW5 I am working on is what I believe to be a standard TW5, where I think yours is a MAX, though I'm not totally sure. There may indeed be differences in the gearbox build between a Standard TW5 and a MAX TW5, though all Systema spur gears I can remember seeing have all been black. I also remain open to the possibility that Systema may use other gears which are colored differently between models, or that they have made changes to the design of the TW5 since their release. As I've worked on several TW5's in the past, I can say that from memory, the TW5 I'm currently working on, and which is pictured above in Locutus' post, and TW5's I've worked on in the past seem consistent, though I wasn't concerned with gear colors or sizes at the time of previous repairs. Given my experiences with the TW5 and after the visual comparison, my first thought was that the gear in your pictures was an aftermarket AEG gear. I'll assume for the sake of the discussion that that's the gear that actually came with the kit you assembled, in which case it looks like the gear in question may have been the wrong one for the model you assembled. As far as explaining why, only Systema or a previous owner of the kit knows, and I'll also say that the possibility remains that somehow these gears where switched out at one time for unknown reasons.

    The fact remains that there is likely not a defect in the gearbox itself, but rather that the incorrect gear was included with this particular kit, or that the bearing size was incorrect. It is my personal opinion that the gearbox itself was correctly manufactured, given that Systema uses manufacturing dyes to ensure uniform construction during the manufacturing process. In other words, PTWs arren't hand cut. It also appears that the gear itself isn't defective on it's own, but rather just the wrong size for the TW5 gearbox. Again, I have no explanation as to why this would have occurred.

    As far as the jokes go, on the day I was working on this particular TW5 which I took pictures of and Locutus referenced above with my pictures, I had several regular customers in the store who all commented on this thread in a variety of joking ways, especially comments to the concern of how far out of control this topic has gone, among others questioning your motives for making such a vocal post. From the original tone of this blog, I can't say that all of the responses weren't unwarranted. Still, the topic shouldn't be of concern over Systema's engineering practices or that they suck because of one person's experiences. Systema has proven their engineering over time to be excellent, and that was not the tone of the original blog post. The topic should revolve around getting to the bottom of why the problem you experienced occurred in the first place. The only way I know of to do that is to actually contact Systema with the concern instead of relying on a variety of people's opinions who have no knowledge of the TW5. We all realize (or at least I do) that people have problems with all kinds of products. Every airsoft gun from every manufacturer I've ever known of has had one issue or anyother from any one person's point of view. Cars have issues too, and BMW has never been immune to problems either, per your comparison of Systema guns to BMW automobiles. I'm sure BMW owners who experienced an off-the-lot problem would be just as vocal, but BMW owners don't assemble their cars from kits either so being upset over an unexpected assembly problem but that doesn't resolve the core issue here.

    As I said before, when encountering an issue like this, contacting the manufacturer would be the first thing I would have done. Systema's support has always been excellent. Even if it meant having the customer wait a few extra days, I'd rather give them an end-product that I can be confident with, instead of modifying a proven design that could cause problems in the future. My biggest concern now is that the TW5 which may already be in the possession of your customer might fail in the future due to the modifications you have made, regardless of your confidence to the contrary, and that the TW5 may not perform to spec as a result of those modifications which could potentially be compounded by an incompatible part, in this case, the gear and likely not the gearbox.

    The goal for the majority of positive responses here isn't to save face for Systema or to badmouth you personally Scorpion, but rather to get to the bottom of the real issue and to have it properly resolved to the benefit of the customer, and to ensure that true and factual information is desseminated, regardless of the product involved. At least that's the way I see it.

    Now that we have additional pictures to compare, I think we can all agree that the gearbox and drilling of holes can be counted out as potential defects, so please, keep the personal flaming out of the topic in the future.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 12:18 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
  19. Old
    Scorpion's Avatar
    Thanks Brad! If you can get me measurements can you also post pictures of the gear itself? The face of the teeth to show there is no contact from the bearing flange? Also the PTW5 I worked on IS a MAX kit. It seems the gears are different.

    We might be comparing two totally different gearboxes! We may be back to the issue of the bearing placement or specific gear inclusion as the two issues to address. Either way, we'll see soon enough if you can help out with more pictures and measurements!
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 12:36 PM by Scorpion Scorpion is offline
  20. Old
    Darkstar's Avatar
    Measurement of the spur gear is approximately 33.15-33.18mm. It's difficult to measure the diameter as it wants to sift, but it seems to be about 3.18mm accross.

    The spur gear on the TW5 I'm working on is fine, and there is no possibility of the spur gear contacting the bushing in any way. So much so that it wasn't worth even taking a picture. Metal shavings are extremely light to non-existant inside the gearbox and are indicitive of standard break-in of an airsoft gun. I'm not sure if what you're seeing on my pictures is just a reflection of light off the grease, as I'm looking for metal shavings and there doesn't really appear to be any that are noticable to my eyes. I've never seen a gearbox that didn't have a few metal shavings in it due to break-in. Nothing looks out of the ordinary on my TW5 repair.

    Now I gave Systema a call and I just got off the phone with my Systema rep before I wrote this, and they are aware of this gun, thread, and issue. They confirmed that the MAX does have a larger spur gear, and that the spur gear will rub slightly against the bushing on TW5 MAX Challenge Kits, however once you close the gearbox, you should be able to turn the gear with only minimal rubbing until the gear and bushing wear down slightly and break in. My rep also said that the only possibility that makes sense if the gear wouldn't turn at all is that if a Revolution gear may have been included with the kit instead of the TW5 MAX spur gear. He stated the Revolution spur gear is slightly larger in diameter than the TW5 MAX spur gear. The gearbox shell itself, however, is the same on both the standard and MAX TW5's and he doesn't believe that there is a problem inherent in the gearbox.

    They also are aware of the same concerns that I was, in that the modifications could definitely cause major problems down the road for the customer. He recommended that the bearing be replaced as soon as possible, as well as checking the spur gear for excess wear as the gear may need to be replaced as well.

    I hope this information lays everything to rest. I know that Systema has offered to look at this gun for the customer, but they're probably not going to warranty any parts that were modified.

    I wish everyone involved good luck and I hope this eventually gets resolved.

    Darkstar out.
    Posted 04-12-2010 at 05:55 PM by Darkstar Darkstar is offline
 

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