What makes a bad word bad?

[BlackHawk97]

WARNING: The following discussion may not be accepted by all, and would suggest that if you are offended by swear words or the discussion of such, please leave this thread



Ok, before I get ripped for this here me out. I have had this approved by gertrude, however this needs to stay civil. This is not a thread where you are allowed to simply sit around and curse but discuss a serious topic. The reason I am posting this is to discuss a point of view that I have had for some time.

Ok, so, here is the topic, what makes a bad word bad? Well I have always looked at "bad" words as being a very hypocritical area. Someone will say hey this word is bad, however will turn around and say the word crap or poo which has the same exact definition as the "bad" word that they previously stated. So, if the definition is not what defines a word as bad, what is?

Please, like I said, gertrude stated that this topic is on a fine line, so please keep this civil, and simply discuss what could be the cause of a word being bad. Also, if in a point or something, you are needing to use a word that will be **** out, allow it to be, and let the community figure the word out for themselves, don't find a way around it like using all cap's or something.

The following is a list of words that are considered bad by most of the general public, as well as publicly accepted words with the same definition.

1. **** = poop, crap, fecal matter, etc.
2. damn = darn
3. **** = sex, freaking, intercourse
4. *** = anus, hind end, butt, buns,donkey
5. ***** = female dog

Please discuss, and again, keep this civilized and serious, if this gets off topic, I will request it be deleted.

[Dante]

F.*.*.*. = Fornicating Under Consent of King

the word began its life in the middle ages when kings would try to limit the popuation and those who got cuaght doing the deed without a F.*.*.*. sign on the door would be punished. thats the story i was told anyway. so its not truely a bad word its just saying you have the right to **** whenever you want.

[Predator]

i think it is just on the way you say it

[Armyguy]

Hopefully one of my questions will be answered, me going to a private school they talk alot about religon obviously, and from my understanding the bible is the only thing that says you cant use the words. Now why in a public school you cant say them and noone makes a issue of it, but when we said the pledge it had the word God in it so parents rose hell. Little off topic, but just my thoughts.

[Steamer]

I hope you dont get slammed for that Dante, because that is interesting, I have never heard that.

[Darkstar]

Uhhhh, this just went WAY downhill. Not sure if this one is really appropriate discussion as there are underaged kids who frequent the forums. Sure many of them are going to say "oh, I know all of those words already", but it still doesn't make it okay to discuss them publicly.

While I understand your desire to have a civil discussion about bad words, even the off-topic forum probably isn't going to be the best place for it. I would recommend the moderators take this thread down before someone gets offended.

Darkstar out.

[BlackHawk97]

Ok, that is fine, I completely understand. I did ask gertrude before I posted this about it, and she said it was ok, but to tread softly, but if you feel it should be taken down, please one of the mods do so. I do not want to offend anyone or step on their toes. Gertrude said she may not be online until tomorrow, so if one of the other mods would like, they can remove this. Thank you, and sorry if I have upset anyone. Simply trying to have a serious discussion, and I hoped the warning on the top would have been enough.

However Darkstar you are reinforcing my side of the argument a little. Why is it that when such a descussion comes up, people are offended? What is it that offends these people. It can't be the definition becuase if it where, they would be offended by this entire site. I have seen numorous times in just about every thread words such as crap, dang, darn, etc. used regularly. I am not stating that the site should be changed, simply using it as an example, so please do not take it as such. So, why does this descusion offend people? Why do certain words offend people when a similar word with the same definition does not? Ok, last little speal, sorry, if you deem it as necisary, mods please close this up.

[Steamer]

Its the hypocrisy of the system Blackhawk ;)

Its a Ying, and Yang thing.. If you didn't have words that meant "so bad" you wouldnt have words that meant "so good" like love, and peace. This is needed to be able to express ourselves with emotion.

What emotion/words are acceptable seems to be attached to religon.

[D_Man]

Originally posted by Dante
F.*.*.*. = Fornicating Under Consent of King

the word began its life in the middle ages when kings would try to limit the popuation and those who got cuaght doing the deed without a F.U.C.K. sign on the door would be punished. thats the story i was told anyway. so its not truely a bad word its just saying you have the right to **** whenever you want.

Funny, but not true:

CLICK ME (http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/****.htm)

EDIT: Due to our glorious language filter, the link I provided is "clensed". To access the link, replace the ****.html with f u c k.html, obviously omitting the spaces :)

[BlackHawk97]

Steamer I see, and this is understandable, however, if it is religion based, one(not myself) could argue that the FCC is therefore forcing christianity/the bible upon the public by referring to the words said to be cursed by such religion and not allowing them on public television. It could be argued the same way the pledge of allegiance was with the sentence one nation under god.

I do understand that those certain words could express extreme emotion such as severe anger, or severe dislike, or something of that nature, but even in that respect such words are still looked down upon by most of society. And that is what I do not understand.

If religion says that certain words are cursed, why? I would like to know why a certain word is cursed and yet another with the same meaning is not. You would think that if the reasoning behind the word being a curse word is religion based, it would be because the religion does not approve of the definition, however if that is so, then why are other words accepted and those that are "bad" are not?

Also D Man I believe the link is a bad link, it took me to a page that said the url could not be found.

[Steamer]

Cool link Dman!

Blackhawk, search the acronym at that site. Seems to help answer some of your interesting questions.

For me those words in society that are "taboo" give it more strength emotionally because of its "ban". Which only stops me from using them in certain company.

[BlackHawk97]

Agreed Steamer, I to try to watch the language in certain company due to the fact that I know some may take it the wrong way. And yes the link did help, thank you D Man, it is greatly appreciated. This is the discussion I was looking for when I started this thread, I am glad to have serious posters such as Steamer, D Man, and others discuss this topic.

My entire point behind this topic is, why are the words so taboo, and the link does help some with the explanation, however it still doesn't answer my question about, why it is that some will use words that have the same exact meaning as those they deem unfit and "bad". Yes it is like you said Steamer, it is the hypocrisy of it, however I would like to bring this to peoples attention, because I know for atleast my parents and their friends, they where unaware that they where even being hypocritical in this way until I brought it to their attention, now it is not such a big deal to use such language, atleast in certain situations that call for such, in their presence.

Take for example yesterday, I found out that my brand new KJ glock is not with my stuff after Op: Bermuda, and I am very mad about that. When I first found out about it I was furious and did not care to watch my language, because I felt it was needed to use such words to express my true feelings. If I had simply sat back and said, aww man I am so angry, I am so darn mad, I don't seem to furious, however replace angry and darn and mad with a few certain words, and the sentance is more intense and gets my point across that I am very angry.

[output01x]

I would guess that some words are "bad" or "taboo" has more to do with their history than with their definition. For instance, some racial words are considered "bad" because of the history of their application. Of course, many of those racial words are becoming less "bad" simply because people are starting to use them in less negative ways recently.

So I would guess that curse words were at some point applied in a negative way and have therefore remained "bad" today.

[BlackHawk97]

Yes it is understandable that racial words would be considered taboo, because they have a bad definition. However, if a word was bad at a point in time and was unaccepted it would have been because of it's definition and meaning. However in current times, it is not the definition that is considered taboo or bad, but it is simply the word itself. If you look farther back in time, the entire definition was looked down uppon, and any word referring to such definition was considered bad, however in current times the definition is not bad, and most of the words that mean such that used to be considered taboo are more widely accepted accept for those select few. And that is where I ask why.

[Steamer]

My nephews birthday party was a few weeks ago, one of the kids(9 years old) turned to my nephew, and said "fo shizzle my nizzle". Now, I dont know if any other adult caught it or not, but I know what he said, and I found it unacceptable. Why? Most likely because I didnt feel he understood the gravity of what he said being 9 years old, not enough respect for the words he choose. This comes with maturity, and understanding of the "taboo", and is earned. Its an unspoken right of passage, once you are able to understand, and own the emotion behind such words you are then allowed to use them.

[BlackHawk97]

Steamer, I agree with you 100%, and feel the same way. I to have heard/seen such things and agree, it is just not right for someone who does not understand what they are saying to say it. However once they are old enough and do have the responsability and maturity to use such words in the correct format, why is it wrong? And we are back to square 1 ;) . No but seriously though, I do fully agree with you.

[Steamer]

hehe I hear you bro...

An effort to protect the innocent, in religious terms? Hypocrisy? Sensorship?

Yes I say.

I do feel the taboo gives definition, and meaning. Without it they lose there gravity.

[BlackHawk97]

absolutely, in younger people, if they did not have that taboo, then they would not have that "gravity" and would not understand that what they are saying is severe, or extreme. However once they come of age, and can understand the responsibilities of such words, I don't see what the big deal is with them saying them. I don't see why so many people see it as wrong for grown men and women to use such words if the time and place calls for it. But when it comes to the younger generation, I do agree that we should keep such words as seeming taboo atleast until they can completely comprehend what is being said.

[Nate The Great]

Well, I’m a firm believer in tell-it-how-it-is. Don’t beat around the bush, get straight to the point. However, because of societies constraints (hehe) one can’t do that all the time. Words are words to me, nothing more, nothing less. Someone can tell me over and over that they love me, adore me, etc. Someone can tell me over and over how much they hate, want to beat me up, etc. All using words, “words that mean “good” like love, and peace. This is needed to be able to express ourselves with emotion.” Or using words from the other side of the spectrum. It neither hurts me or moves me if someone tells me, **** you or I love you. They are words to me whether they are “good” or “bad”, which is label put on them by society. Because it is deemed a bad word, it’s still a word. An action is where true feelings are portrayed.

I can’t tell you from a first hand experience, maybe someone older could comment, but bad words have been used more loosely in dialogue then they were 15 years ago… At least in my life bad words are used without any too much of any emotion attached to them. They are just another word in the vast English vocabulary to say something.

However, it is all too sad to come across little children, 4-7, cussing you out, dropping the F-bomb every other word…. But who says its bad; it’s just a word anyways isn’t it???

[BlackHawk97]

Yes, it is just a word, however words are used to express emotion. A young child who says something along the lines of **** you does not comprehend what is truly being said. He/she doesn't understand that that is a very strong way of saying things. It is just like them yelling at their parents when they are mad at them and saying that they hate them. They don't realize that what they just said hits deep inside and hurts their parents feelings, and it is that lack of comprehension that makes me say such words should stay taboo for the younger community, however once they have matured, and can understand the correct time's to use harsher words, maybe when truly upset or something, than they should not be looked at as cursing, but simply expressing their true feeling, wether it be rage, pain, sadness, etc.

[gmaximus]

Funny thing is I really rarely use curse words to show actual anger, but way more often for emphasis in normal conversation (obviously just with friends, not around family or in a professional setting). Maybe this is a development of the last few decades, I'm not sure. But it might be worth asking if this sort of use lowers the impact of the same words used to demonstrate true anger or dislike.

[The CGS]

Well, how does **** translate to the middle finger? Thats all I really want to know...

[BlackHawk97]

Gmaximus, that is a very good point, and I would have to agree with you. I would think that with people hearing it more it will lesten the impact of it's severity. I am not completely opposed to this, seeing as how such words do have the same exact definition as others that are commonly used, so it would only make sense for these words to be commonly used as substiutes for the ones that are already used. However I do believe that once this happens, we will have to find new words to express our anger, rage, sadness, etc. because once these final few get to the point where they are used regularly and have lost their impact, we are out of words to express the extreme's.


Ohhhhhh, we may have an answer to my question;) . These words are kept taboo, and tryed to keep out of everyday speech due to the fact that they are the last words we have that will express an extreme of a certain feeling. If these words are to become common like dang, darn, poo, etc., then we will have to invent new words. The reasons the current words are called bad is just people over reacting to a word that they are not used to hearing. Possible answer anyone?

And The CGS, I agree, I have no idea how the middle finger translates to that.

[wvkilroy]

Honestly, I think the middle finger may come be the symbol for, well you know, in sign language. - At least that's what I've always thought.

To me, it's the meaning behind the word that makes it bad. It also depends on how it is used. Especially if directed specifically toward someone to insult them when used.

I try not to use foul language (I'm a Christian) but I use " Holy Crap " and " Oh frick! " alot in battle :rolleyes:

[vbtb110]

The middle finger originated in the middle ages (time of Braveheart, castles, etc.) and vikings. When the castles captured enemies, they would cut off their middle finger so that they couldnt fire off arrows anymore. The opposite side who still had their middle fingers would show them to the opposing castles kinda like a "Ha ha, I still have my finger" type of thing. Or at least thats what I was taught.

[gertrude]

I kindly ask that anyone using those four magic letters that start with F please * out the last three letters. We all know what you're talking about, and even in a link, if we can't figure it out, we don't deserve to follow the link. :P


I believe the middle-finger thing comes from Britain's longbowman. Because the English (after Henry IV, V?) either a) chopped off their fingers so they didn't have to serve, or b) had their middle fingers chopped off by the French because they did serve, they would show off their middle finger (either whole or with the third phalange missing) as a signal of their dislike of the other person. In other words, "Look what I've done, look how cool and whole I am/look what the lousy French have done to me!" One of those kinds of deals. Note: one cannot draw the string of a bow missing the third section of one's middle finger.

Just a note on the word "taboo":
Taboo actually comes from the word "tapu," a system of appeasing the spirits and life force driving the universe in Maori culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maori#Religion_and_tapu). Western culture has sort of taken the term and made it apply to things like naughty language and all sorts of things (ie, baseball magic and taboos).

Personally, I use profanity on a daily basis. I've caught myself at airsoft games cursing in front of children, and have been very ashamed of myself for doing so. Of course I didn't do it on purpose, but really, sometimes I swear like a sailor. However, I'm better than I used to be (two-three years ago I was *terrible*).

I think for some cultures it's normal to use such words, and for other people, the idea that the word is forbidden/profane somehow speaks to the society's level of perceptual sacredness. For instance, saying something naughty in church is much more unnacceptable than saying it in a women's lengerie store, but even that is worse than saying it in a bowling alley. For me, it has to do with the sacred/profane dichotomy (dichotomy=duality=two opposing forces) and the gradients between these two extremes, as if it were a continuum. The more sacred a place, the less profanity is expected/tolerated.

[BlackHawk97]

To wvkilroy, that is what I am saying, you are correct in saying that the meaning behind the word is what is bad, however do you ever say things such as poo, crap, dang, darn, etc.? If so, then what is the difference behind saying those things and saying the so called bad words, they all have the same definition, so why is it that the forms listed above are accepted and the curse words are not?

You stated that you say holy crap while playing airsoft, which is fine, I am not saying that it is not, however, what is the differance between saying holy crap and holy ****? Both crap and **** have the SAME EXACT definition, that being both mean fecal matter. So, I guess what I am saying is, you stated you go by difinition, however don't use prophanity, why? Please give me an honest answer, this is what I would like to get to the bottom of right now, we have cleared up some things, and I believe the one thing remaining is why people will say one word, and yet completely condem another with the same difinition, and not take another look back at what they just did. They made a hypocritycle statemant.

Also, Gertrude...wow, there where so many big words used in that last post, I had to honestly get a dictionary out. Wow, talk like a sailor, and can also talk like collage professor. Just wow, thank you for the amount of vast knowledge and thank you gertrude and vbtb110 for the background on the middle finger.

Gertrude one more thing, I to use prophanity quite a bit, ask the rest of the 97th, I think I use it just about the most on the team, however do try to watch it around younger children and certain company for the reasons that steamer and myself clerified. As of now the words are becoming more and more accepted, however it must make a graduale acceptance, you can't just throw them in the mix. So for now it seems like the words known as curse words/bad words in general are a way of expressing an extreme emotion, however I do believe with the words being more and more accepted people will start using them like us;) .

[Locutus]

I believe this is the most useless thread ever in existance of Airsoft Ohio....

Society determines in general what is "profane" based on the assumed intent of the word, beyond that, the context plays a large part in determining if a word is profane or not. I believe there is a town in Australia called F***. However I don't think any reasonable person is going to be offended if you say "I went to F*** Australia for vacation" (it might get a few chuckles though).... but if you were to say "F*** that town F*** Australia, that place sucks!", then that is a different story. You have used the same word twice in one sentance, but both have obviously different meanings...

So the difference between sh** and poo is obvious (and most all other synomyms of profane words), one is intended to be profane, to provoke a response or convey that your intentions are vulgar. The other is just a nicer way to refer to something not so pleasant.

[BlackHawk97]

Yes, however both **** and poo can be used in many ways. You can say, ahh poo if upset with something, however it doesn't seem like you are to upset, however if you say aww ****, it seems like you may be a little more distressed. So yes **** can be used in different ways than words such as poo, however poo can also be used in those ways. So either way you say it, ahh **** or ahh poo, you are showing distress, anger, sadness. However I can almost guarantee you that if you went to the local mall and asked random people if they where offended by either statement, almost 75% or more would say that the statement ahh **** offended them, however ahh poo is completely acceptable, even though they where used in the same context. This is where I am asking why.

And I am sorry that this is deemed as extreamly useless, I stated way above after Darkstar posted, that if you deemed it necessary to please close this. I didn't want to step on anyones toes or offend anyone. The thread was never closed, so I figured it was ok. If you really deem it as being that useless than please close it, however everything has stayed civil in this discussion and we are having a serious conversation. We are not bashing on anyone or anything like that, just a small group of people who have found this topic interesting have been discussing their points, and those who have so far thought this thread as useless have not shared in the discussion and let us be to discuss it among ourselves. Although, as an administrator, if you feel it is really just making people stupid rather than discussing a serious topic, please close the thread.

I had expected someone to get on here and bash me for something, however did not expect it to be an administrator. If you really feel that this is the most useless thread on AO, than you didn't need to get on here and post that and bash me publicly for posting it. If you had simply PM'd me and said, hey Blackhawk your thread is kind of useless and is taking up bandwidth that is needed or soemthing, I would have asked gertrude to take it down, however, I did PM her before this was posted and asked her if it was ok to post. She said yes, so I did, I also requested in the PM that I returned to her that at the first sign of a spark, not to let it flame up, and to close and trash the thread. I also said that if I saw something that may start a fire on here, that I would PM her about it and ask her to remove this.

So, I guess what I want to know is, do you want this thread removed? If so, than gertrude please do so, if not, than please let us be to discuss our topic.

[Locutus]

I find this thread pointless because it's like asking why the sky is blue. To some people I guess it might be some great wonder, but it's not really rocket science.

I already explained why "oh poo!" is not offensive and "oh s***!" is. It's the users assumed intent (as judged by society). When you say "s***", you are using that word with intent of being rude and crass or obscene, and when you say "poo" you are not.

Furthermore, "poo" and "s***" do not have the same meaning, the latter is defined as the "obscene" term for feces.

Why is one obscene and the other is not? Why is it rude to put your elbows on the table while eating? Because someone at somepoint determined it was, and the rest of society agreed.

[BlackHawk97]

This is why the sky is blue. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/198671.asp?cp1=1) However unlike that question which has a factual answer, my question is simply trying to get at what is it about bad words that offends people. Like I said it can't be the definition because if so than just about every topic on this site would offend them. So if it is not the meaning that offends them, what is? What is it about these words that make them so offensive.

Yes I see what you are saying about the elbows on the table thing, however that is yet another thing that in current times is no longer greatly seen as rude. I have never been told that it was, and all of my friends, family, just about everyone I have ever met has put their elbows on the table. However the fact that certain words are still considered vulgar when a similar word with a similar or exactly identical definition is not is what baffles me. I was just trying to get to what it is about the word that causes offense, and I figured that people on here who may be offended by the words may chime in and tell me what it is about them that truly offends them personally.

This way, I understand why they are so offended by them, and will possably help those of us who don't watch our language around others and show us why what we say offends them and may change our views.

However like I said though, if you view this as truely pointless, please have it deleted or gertrude could you delete it. It's not going to hurt me one bit if it is, I would rather it be deleted than be bashed on for having it up.

[The CGS]

Thanks, gertrude, and also....
The French were so terrified of the longbow, when they captured British soldiers, they cut off their middle fingers(Called the PLUCKING finger, may have gotten mixed with F****** finger), so when the French and British fought, the British would "Pluck" them off, and give the bird. I just found this out today in school...wierd!

[Locutus]

Yes I see what you are saying about the elbows on the table thing, however that is yet another thing that in current times is no longer greatly seen as rude.

Exactly. Just as the words "season", "loom" and "verge" used to be obscene at one time.

They are obscene because society says they are. Since you know this, if you chose to use these words anyway, then you are communicating that you are trying to be obscene. If you chose to use these words and this is not your intention, then you simple are not using the language properly.

Then you may ask, "Why does society determine that these words are obscene"? So that one can communicate their intent to be obscene. They are just part of our ever evolving english language that allows us to communicate with intention and emotion.

[BlackHawk97]

Posted by myself

Ohhhhhh, we may have an answer to my question . These words are kept taboo, and tryed to keep out of everyday speech due to the fact that they are the last words we have that will express an extreme of a certain feeling. If these words are to become common like dang, darn, poo, etc., then we will have to invent new words. The reasons the current words are called bad is just people over reacting to a word that they are not used to hearing. Possible answer anyone?

Not word for word what you said but similar, I am trying to say in this explanation that these words are kept out of common language so they can keep their meaning, my feeling in the above is if you choose to express an extreme emotion, or as you stated if you choose to be vulger you have the words to do so. This was stated quite a few posts ago. It may have been a little more helpful if you had simply gave me this answer from the beginning rather than bash me and tell me that my thread is extremely useless, I don't feel it is so, and I have never even looked at it in this sense, until now.

I am sorry that you feel it was pointless, and I apologize if I have wasted your time, however I do feel this is an acceptable answer. Words are vulgur for that fact that if you need to seem so, you have the words to use to seem vulgur. It is a simple answer, that was overlooked, I obviously wasn't the only one who has done so seeing as how others have responded to my post with other possibilities.

Thank you for answering my question.

[Locutus]

It may have been a little more helpful if you had simply gave me this answer from the beginning rather than bash me and tell me that my thread is extremely useless

I'm sorry if you feel like I bashed you... I reread my posts and I am not sure where you are getting that from. I always try and be straightforward and to the point, sometimes people take that the wrong way. I thought the thread was pointless because I thought the answer was obvious.

I thought I was giving you that answer in my first post when I said "So the difference between sh** and poo is obvious (and most all other synomyms of profane words), one is intended to be profane, to provoke a response or convey that your intentions are vulgar. The other is just a nicer way to refer to something not so pleasant."

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[gertrude]

BlackHawk, I think Locutus simply doesn't understand why this thread is here instead of you reading an overly-complicated text like some of those I'm about to link to below.

I think there's been enough raising of hackles over this debate, and unless someone has been so inspired by it that they ask me to put it up again (or create another thread dedicated to it) I think I'm going to lock it. If there's been this much debate about whether it should even be here, then I'm more inclined that it not be.

Here are some resources, however:

From The Anatomy of Swearing (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812217640/sr=8-1/qid=1144184274/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3358243-0817709?%5Fencoding=UTF8):
"SWEARING constitutes a species of human behavior so little understood, even by its most devoted practitioners, that an examination of its meaning and significance is now long overdue." Or for free at the OSU main library at call number GT3080 .M6.


Bad Language: are some words better than others? (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195172485/qid=1144184507/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3358243-0817709?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) Or for free at the OSU library call number P409 .B38 2005.

For other sociolinguistical inquiries, I would try the OSU library system. It's wonderful. (This was my minor in school, anthropology was my major. If you need help looking up resources, let me know. Those two books seemed to be pretty good.)