Gas Use Guide!!!

[KingsFan182]

This guide is for all the noobs or unsure people who don't know what gas to use in their gun. First let me say that when I do the list that some guns can take stronger gas but they will have problems in the long run. This list only includes stock guns unless noted. Also note that any gun that takes HFC22 can also take HFC134.

HFC134
-Western Arms Gas Blowbacks
-Tokyo Marui Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-Kokusai Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-Tanaka Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-KSC Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-Marushin Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-Hudson Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks

HFC22(Green Gas)
-KWC Gas Blowback and Non-Blowbacks
-KJ Works Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-KWA Gas Blowbacks
-UHC Non-Blowbacks (GBB's if they make em)
-HFC Gas Blowbacks
-Digicon Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks
-G&P(They make the gas Dragunov)Gas Blowbacks
-sTTi Gas Blowbacks and Non-Blowbacks


Remote Adapters are Required for FTC Guns

Remember you can use any gas with any gun....but they will probably break sooner than you want them to.

[Phizz]

I enjoy your layout, however Disagree. KWA and KSC are the same company, why would they have to be in different cateogories? to use 134a in a Western Arms, or even any KSC gun like the M93R or M11 would not be using the gun to it's full potential. I believe you may want to have a guide of specific models of guns, rather than labeling a whole company to use a specific gas, it is unethical and misleading towards a newbie.

Have a nice day,

-Justin.

[KingsFan182]

Using green gas in a WA gun isn't smart. It's a great way to ruin a great gun quickly. When you say KSC and KWA are the same you are partly right. They are both made by KSC but KWA is made in Taiwan and tune for green gas, while KSC is tuned for 134. The M93r is discontinued, and the KSC M11 takes 134 and the KWA one takes green gas. Any more questions?

P.S. About the newbie thing. I am helping newbies with having a gun that will last a long time shooting 300 fps, instead of one that lasts a month shooting 350 fps. What would you rather have happen to your $200 Xcelerator?

[Phizz]

Well, I was just saying that you should not entirely say that one brand of Gas Gun can take some gas, and another cannot. That would be like saying TM AEG's can only use Sanyo batteries, and CA's can only use Sharp batteries, not only is it entirely untrue Kingsfan, but it may send a mixed message to someone coming to this forum for help.

I have personally used used Green Gas in my WA Para Ordinance for about a year now, and have never encountered a problem, and will not use anything as weak as HCF134a in that gun. As far as the "discontinued" M93R, That thing will not fire a whole clip without Green Gas running through it.

With the new forum up, I do not wish to participate in a flame war, I just ask that the message you are trying to put out is not unclear, and has logic behind it. One should not be afraid to use their airsoft gun to it's potential.

-Justin

[KingsFan182]

Originally posted by Me
First let me say that when I do the list that some guns can take stronger gas but they will have problems in the long run.

I don't really want to fight about something like this...

And also note why would a newbie buy a discontinued gun? It would be hard to find parts and mags.

[Phizz]

Aloha,

http://www.airsoftdynamics.com/GBB_KSC_M93Rinfo.htm

It's not that the parts aren't availible, you just need to know how to find them.

Hope this helps,

-Justin

[KingsFan182]

I don't think a noob is gonna want to shell out 225 for a gas gun, or 45 for a mag. Not including shipping from the UK.

[Phizz]

The gun is up to the user, however every GBB, mag is going to be in that price cateogory,

Have a nice day,

-Justin

[DumboRAT]

Phizz and Kings,



First, Phizz --

Western Arms, specifically and officially states that the use of any gas other than true HFC134a, should it be found by their technicians even in trace amounts, will void their agreement to honor service warranties and any product guaranty on *_ANY_* of their GBBs.

This comes directly from their PIC of Export Division, Mr. Tomoyuki Mizoguchi.

Just because you got lucky with your GBB should not give you the freedom to recommend that same kind of practice for any other hobbyist/player, who may be more concerned about such potential damages, and who may not be as lucky as you.

It is furthermore well-known in the community, for much longer than just the 4 short year that I've been here, that no WA GBB, even the legendary and now defunct High-Capacity series models, could tolerate the ravages of high-powered gasses, such as H(C)FC22 or Taiwanese "Green Gasses," for very long. This is the singular reason why so many choose to replace their stock plastic slides with metal slides, and is also the leading cause of stock WA plastic slide failure, regardless of whether if the polymer material is WA's proprietary semi-metallic heavyweight or their lightweight composition.

You can find tales of WA GBBs, even those fitted with the heavyweight slide, such as your Para, self-destructing in this format with two mag's worth of BBs, two hours of use, two days, two weeks, or even two years. It's unpredictable. And that's why WA does not recommend anything other than HFC134a for their GBBs.

Furthermore, certain WA GBBs, such as their modern M9/92FS line, are so precisely optimized for the tempreature-pressure relationship of HFC134a that when you substitute higher-pressure gasses into their systems, they will actually "malfunction" and return with unacceptably low gas-efficiency (often not even being able to finish off a single mag's worth of BBs) due to physical-parameter constraints. Even the current-generation WA double-stackers such as the Para demonstrates this to a degree -- summer-time overpressure-induced "light strikes" are common with use of Taiwanese "Green Gasses" and other such more powerful gasses.

--

Additionally, your citation of KWA and KSC being "the same company" is far from being truly correct. There is currently still only circumstantial evidence that, at best, "links" the two makes and furthermore is complicated by the presence of the "KSC-Taiwan" branded items.

It is unclear, at best, the association between these three components -- and to-date, no one has yet been able to step forward with ANY solid, conclusive, and official evidence to support that any one of these entities are truly integrated or associated with the other, or if such products only exist as illegal "clones."

All evidence so far, including that of my own and Jinxx's discovery of a "Made In Taiwan" hidden trademark plate on true-to-brand KSC Glock 18Cs have been able to link any of these entities.

Yet another problem with your initial reply to Kings above further contributes to this caution:

KWA and KSC are the same company, why would they have to be in different cateogories? to use 134a in a Western Arms, or even any KSC gun like the M93R or M11 would not be using the gun to it's full potential.

Should this be true, then why would the Taiwan-made KSC M945 that I sampled show the stress-fracture that occurs precisely along a well-noted line of weakness of KSC plastic slides when exposed to Taiwanese "Green Gas?"

--

In both of the above cases, before labling your fellow hobbyist as being "unethical and misleading," please be sure that you yourself have the facts complete as they stand, and are in turn incontrovertible. Those are very serious accusations not to be slung around lightly.

------------


Kings --

Although your effort above deserves commendation and thanks, they are, as Phizz cited, still somewhat too broad and too "blanket-statement" like to be of service in the way that you, yourself, intend them to be.

The problem, as Phizz cited, is that there are always exceptions to the rule, and that each GBB honestly should be rated according to its own strengths and weaknesses in order to offer an accurate digest of the information presented.

Some of the examples that Phizz brought to-light above perfectly fits the bill, and as such, I will not cite further examples -- just to say that they do exist aplenty.

---

Furthermore, you had also cited above:

Also note that any gun that takes HFC22 can also take HFC134.

While this logic should hold true, it unfortunately does not do so in the real-world.

The reason is simply because with many of the GBBs that truly can tolerate the higher-pressure gasses in terms of durability/reliability, they also actually physically NEED the higher operating pressure to function properly. This is especially manifest as ambient temperatures start to drop, and often, just a drop into the 60-degrees F. territory can bring about sufficient pressure-gradient differences to make this issue manifest on the skirmish field.

-------------------------------

Overall, I feel that it is much more important to educate the newbie or newcomer to gas-operated replicas about the various airsoft gasses in and of themselves:

http://www.airsoftplayers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=177&SearchTerms=gas,primer

In this way, the individual end-user can get a full understanding of the pros and cons of each type of gas, and then explore for himself/herself the pros and cons of using each such gas with their SPECIFIC model GBBs (not just "brands/makes").

=)

Allen
aka DumboRAT

[Phizz]

Aloha Allen, I greatly appreciate your Gas Gun advice, and have been set straight.

Owned. ):

-Justin

[KingsFan182]

Thanks for the advice. I forgot to mention that this guide isn't totally exact, it's just a basic outline.

[KingsFan182]

Originally posted by KingsFan182
Also note that any gun that takes HFC22 can also take HFC134.

And when I said that I mean't that they can take it without breaking, but will not always function right. It cant kill a gun to take weak gas.

[JayKay]

Good attempt, nice effort, good intentions. However I'd have to disagree with some of the generalities.

We need DumboRAT's Gas gun primer back! hehehe

FYI: There are some old WA's that were NBB's. I had one :)

Originally posted by KingsFan182
It cant kill a gun to take weak gas.

No, it just simply wont cycle/work properly in some cases....

[KingsFan182]

Thanks JayKay. Well yah I tried but we really do need DumboRAT's primer, this was just sort of temporary.

[DumboRAT]

Gas Primer:

http://www.airsoftplayers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=177&SearchTerms=gas,primer

=)

Allen
aka DumboRAT

[Nitrous]

With what guns would you use the Red Gas?

[KingsFan182]

Red gas isn't really safe for use in stock guns. The stock gun that is the closest to taking red gas are the KWC guns, but I wouldn't recommend it.