Surrender??

[NickTick]

After reading many post on here about when it is appropriate to ask for a surrender or if you should surrender i decided to do a little investigation. ive have gone to may other websites and read some of there rules for surrender and i think this could fit Airsoft Ohio. Now im not saying that these rules should be abdopted by AO but i think they could clear up a few things when it comes to a surrender. Thanx for your time all.



1. Under no circumstances can you shoot anyone inside of 20ft.
2. Player (A) can ask player (B) to surrender when
i (A) is in total control of the situation
ii (A) has no real risk of being shot
iii (B) doesn't expect (A) or doesn't know that (A) is there
iv (A) knows (point iii) to be the case
v (A) is within 5ft of (B)
vi (A) does not have their finger near the trigger
3. To call for a surrender, a player is to have their weapon properly shouldered/aimed, finger off the trigger, and call out "Surrender" loud enough for the opponent to hear. The opponent in turn is to respond by calling out "I surrender."
4. Given proper conditions are met, a surrender cannot be denied or refused
5. It is the attacking player's responsibility to only attempt a surrender under proper conditions.
6. Failure to attempt a surrender under proper conditions results in both the attacker and defender being eliminated.
7. In any case where an engagement occurs in proximity less than 20ft, if there is ANY question as to who should be eliminated, both parties involved are to be eliminated.

Let me know what u think.

[Cowfur]

Well I don't know if I personally would shoot someone up close, unless they didn't surrender, but if I am the one being surrendered, it's not gonna happen... I'd take the hit

[dark_oblivion]

i would guess that being surrendered would be a pretty big hit on the pride, but i wouldnt know, never been surrendered :p

[Oscar]

If you sneak up on someone that is unaware of your presence, then of course that's a kill. Tap them and tell them they're out.

If you are in a firefight within 20 feet chances are it's going to be a heated battle and it'll be a brutal fight to the death. If your gun is upgraded then you might want to consider how much your BB's are going to hurt the other player and maybe retreat to a safer distance or pull a sidearm. If you have a stock gun I'd say it's pretty darn safe to shoot someone within 20 feet. I see no problem with it.

I've played in games where players complained because I shot them in a building with a stock weapon. This to me is ridiculous. It doesn't hurt that bad. And you can't expect a close battle situation to turn into a "I'm it, you're it" tapping match. So what do you do? You can't say one or the other person wins the battle. I say let the battle play out as it should and shoot each other. What other way is there to solve it?

This is a personal peeve of mine, so I'm going to be very opinionated here... I am very opposed to wimping out at close-range if the guns aren't upgraded to more than 350-400ft. If it's that much of a concern then make a rule for semi-auto at close range, or sidearm only.

Personally, I'd rather have it be an all-out milsim war like it's supposed to be. I'll take my hits at 20 feet or less and you won't hear me complain a bit, because I live for it. It's exhilerating. If I get shot that close then I deserve to be shot, because I let you get that close. A close-quarter battle shouldn't be hindered by mucking it up with fancy rules. Let the battle play out. If you can't stand the welts or the pain then maybe you shouldn't be playing airsoft. That's my own personal opinion. In other words, for me there is no surrender. Only death.

[Fox]

Originally posted by Cowfur
Well I don't know if I personally would shoot someone up close, unless they didn't surrender, but if I am the one being surrendered, it's not gonna happen... I'd take the hit


You say that now, unfortunately it's different on the field.


To all, when you suddenly find your self surrounded, about less then 10 feet by people, you tend to think of it differently. Because as soon as you don't surrender, you're going to get LIT UP. I always offer surrender, and most of those who don't accept normally regret it, because it's their fault when I light them up, along with the normally 3-4 people that are with me.



But, now I see why surrender rules don't work, and I normally have to have a CONVERSATION with the person before they figure out they need to surrender before I light them up.


At 20 feet - lets face it, that's a pretty good distance. In CQB, you could be on the other side of a wall from each other, so a foot or so.

I would say 5-10 feet is about the max you could get a surrender from. Mainly because no matter what that person does, you still have them dead to rights.

[strikers_blade]

Surrender is something I have been wondering about for a while. For me, surrender is just a way to say "you are death, don't even try". I know, some players think they can move faster than a bb which most of the time, result in a burst in the back. A surrender is just a friendly way to kill someone and at the same time, a good way to not shoot your friend if they are (compared to bang bang, you are dead)

Obviously, there is a ton of way to do a surrender and I think this is where the problem come from. To surrender someone, you need to be in full control of the situation, meaning you are not being engaged by the one you are trying to surrender (frontal surrender), you cannot surrender someone on the run (lateral or frontal assault) since you do not control what will happen next. A surrender will most likely occurs when you are behind your target, within engagement distance (5ft-20ft at most), you also have the finger on the trigger and you are actually aiming at the guy (no blind surrendering or "crack through the wall" surrendering).

Surrender is not a manner of shame, it is just a manner of being "outsmarted" by the other guy and by accepting his surrender request, you are just being courteous and this guy will most likely offer another surrender instead of blasting you next time.

In CQB/MOUT, things can get ugly real quick and the surrender/freeze/bangbang rules are just tools to avoid unneccessary accidents. It sucks but it saves bruises.....

[Cowfur]

Well I don't know, it might be different if it were real life. But at least in airsoft I can go down like a man in a hail of bbs rofl.

[Wallace]

NickTick,

Let me first say that the summery you've put up are good surrender rules, although its nothing new in the airsoft community. However let me also say that the biggest drawback on your suggestion is that the rules are "too complicated". For example, if someone, in the middle of a heated firefight, heard "Surrender!!!" and then he or she have to *think* and *figure out* "was all 6 condition met??" before he/she can acknowledge the surrender request, most people would ended up taking too long to think and before you know it they're getting the BB.

Another drawback is that you have laid down *too many* rules that can be easily disputed. For example, there are times that I can hear someone approaching from the back, and is ready to just turn around and shoot. But lets say right before I turn around, he yelled "surrender". Now who am I to argue that I am aware or not aware of his present, and who am I to argue that I could've just swing my gun and eliminate him? Normally people would just go “oh well you got me” but once in a while it will turn into a big fight, and we’ve seen it before.

Personally, surrender can work if ALL the players involved are very skilled and reputable. I am not saying people will bend the rules, but some newer player is just not very in-tune to the environments, and maybe not even aware that a particular “surrender request” is targeted towards them. Your rule needs a bunch of very seasoned players to work, and granted it will be fine for those $200/person national-level events, it won't work with the wide-open "anyone is welcome" airsoftohio.com events.

Finally, we also should distinguish the term "surrender" from "safety kill". In reality, what you have suggested is actually "safety kill", which is a way to eliminate someone without actually firing (for safety reason - not to shoot someone too close, hence safety kill). In a "true" surrender offer, which usually happens when a large force surrounds a small group of survivors (say, an isolated squad), it can turn into a whole different story. This may not make sense to many of you, as various people had already said "I'd rather die in a glory then surrender" - cause its just a game and nobody takes it seriously. But for high-end mil-sim events, when you are trying to get as much immersion as possible, the players will sometimes "simulate" as much as possible and "think" your life is really in the line (especially in high-end mil-sim), which will then drive the desire to surrender but not get killed.



Ez.Wallace

[Wallace]

Oh and back to the topic, when safety kill is concerned, about a year ago I've implemented the procedure of "counter kill" which can be a simple way to determine safety-kill without actually having to think. It goes like this:

Lets say John wishes to “safety-kill” Bob:

1. John approach Bob, regardless of direction, to within 20 ft.
2. John aim gun at Bob and make sure there is no obstacle in between.
3. John screams “Bang bang!”

As soon as John screams “bang bang”, if Bob can instantly turn his weapon directly AT John and scream “bang bang”, then both players are eliminated. If Bob cannot do that instantly (which is a very clear indication of being “surprised”), then Bob is eliminated. The rationale is to mimic real-life situation - when you are aware of the presence of the enemy, even if he/she fire first, you still have a good chance to retaliate and squeeze out a few rounds before you die. However if the incoming fire is a surprise, then most likely you will not be able to fire into the correct direction before you collapse.

Furthermore, the rule is very effective “safety-wise”, because John is guaranteed a kill – doesn’t matter what happen, as long as he’s within range and have a clear line of fire (both in the burden of John), Bob *will* be eliminated. It effectively encourages people to use the safety kill. Plus, think about it too, 20 feet is REALLY, REALLY close in most situations – if you can get within 20 ft of someone, you are either damn-good, or he/she mistaken you as friendly forces. Finally, distance / obstacle are relatively easy to determine subjectively, as oppose to “I knew you were there” type of thing. If Bob wants to dispute, the only recourse is that “you are too far away” (which is easy to measure), or “you don’t have a clean shot of me” which is again relatively easy to determine.

That being said, the only one exception to this rule is that John can only safety-kill two person at a time. He can’t sneak up to a whole platoon and scream “bang bang bang bang bang bang bang” and claim he kills them all. It just doesn’t happen in real life; someone in the squad is gonna fire back. If John wishes to eliminate a squad of 6, he must either sneak up to them and tap all of their shoulder quickly to signify knife-kill, open fire at all of them, or have two more teammate with him (3 person screaming “bang bang” can take out 6 total). This is also true for an ambush, even if John is at a perfect ambush position and a squad approaches, he should probably fire from a reasonable distance and takes them all out.

That’s it for now… the only last thing I am not sure is that this rule was primarily designed for outdoor skirmishes, and it may not work too well in CQB. Comments?



Ez.Wallace