I'm bored, i'll make a battery aricle...

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I'm bored, got 1 hour and nothing to do right now so i'll just post a battery maintinance article, if you don't like me, don't read the article!

NiMH vs. NiCD
Everybody knows there are two kinds of cells, but they may not know some of the major advantages and disadvantages of the common cells on the market. Most people won't bother to do any of this, but if you have the right charger and need all the power you can get out of your battery here are a few steps to follow.

Dischargeing And Storage
When discharging it is good to have a cutoff box on your discharger if you do not have one built into your peak charger. .9v per cell (5.4v for a 6 cell pack) works best for both Nickel Metal Hydrate(NiMH) and Nickle Cadium(NiCD). For NiCD's you should always discharge you pack right after you are done using it, or it will run "flat" the next time you charge it, meaning you'll loose voltage and runtime until the pack has been cycled a few times. Also always store them discharged to .9v per cell and periodtically cycle them to keep the voltage from dropping to low.
For NiMH you shoud discharge right before you use it, not after you are done using it. Also use .9v per cell cutoff when discharging. when storeing always leave your battery partially charged, if your storing it over 1 months time charge it all the way, for 1 month or less charge to %50. It is also reccommended that you cycle your packs the day before you use them to get them running at their peak.
PowerFlex And other Flex Modes(applies only to peak chargers)
Some chargers have a PowerFlex mode or similar setting that "burps" the batteries in order to reduce the buildup of crystals. It works by periodically reversing the polarity of the current going into your battery. Do not use this on NiMH, it will cause overcharge or false peak. Only use this feature on NiCD's which are not taking a full charge, if your packs are working well, or only need to be cycled a few times just stick to linear charing.
General charging
There are many chargers that have selectable charge amperages. Each capacity and type of cell has certain voltages that work best and are safe for it. As a rule of the thumb you generally want to charge at 1 to 2 times its rated capacity. For example a 2400Mah NiCD pack should be charged at 4 to 5 amps. A 3300Mah pack should be charged at 5 to 6 amps. The higher the amperage rate, within its limits, the more voltage you will get, meaning you'll get a higher ROF, but less runtime. The lower the voltage the opposite occures.
Why spend so much money on a stupid battery?
There are several reasons. Spending extra money on a good battery means you can use your gun longer without having to change out the battery, it also means that you can upgrade your gun more, ask Fox about that, he seems to know as much about mechboxes as I do batterys. Buying a battery wiht more cells ovbiosly increases rof and alllows for higher upgrades. Most of the time that is what people do, but for some cases where you can't fit a bigger battery your only chioce is higher powered cells. The best NiCD cells are 2400's(Sanyo), the best NiMH are 3300 Gold Peak( not sanyos, they are good, but GP's outdo them in every aspect). You could take it even further and buy a Zapped pack from a battery company such as www.promatchracing.com. Basically zapping is a process where the cells capacity is increased, think of it as adding a trubo charger to your car or putting in an M120 instead of the stock spring. Zapped cells are more expensive, but is is worth it, like Fox says about FTK's. The only other alternative is buying a whole bunch of cheper lower capacity batteries, which many people do. But wouldn't it be nice if you could power you gun with an M120 and good ROF all day without having to switch batteries all the time?
If you disagree and are certain that I'm wrong, go to promatchracing and click on faq to find out, they are one of the world's best distributors for high powered racing packs which also work great in airsoft guns:)
Feel free to ask questions if I have left anything unanswered or comment to the content. I do hope somebody will read this and be enlightened, otherwise I just wasted an hour, yes i know, i type slow.

[Wallace]

Thanks for the work! Is been a while someone puts up a battery primer, I think it's a nice refresher for everyone, and it does sounds like you know what you are talking about batteries. :)

Nonetheless, one thing I like to mention is that you do not need to discharge your Ni-CD pack every time. Repeated discharging of the pack actually shortern its service life.

Airsoft is not like RC racing where the performance of your battery pack is measured in how high of a discharge it can sustain. Granted a good set of battery can't hurt, but I've used matched cells in my airsoft guns and there simply isn't enough performance gain to justify the high cost. If price is no object, by all mean spent $80 on a set of zapped, matched cells. But for the majority of users, a good set of 2000mAh pack, when properly maintained, will be more then fine.

Back to the topic, for airsoft purpose, Ni-CD should be periodically deep-discharged to 0.9v per cell (6.3v on a 7-cell, 8.4v pack), maybe twice a year to reduce crystal build-up - not everytime you use it. For the rest of the year, just top it off after each game. As long as you have a good peak-detection charger, it is extremely rare that your Ni-CD pack will develop "memory" effects (the "true" memory effect in Ni-CD battery pack are rarely found outside of geo-stationary satellite batteris).



Ez.Wallace

[Wallace]

Oh btw, the highest capacity Sub-C Ni-MH cell now is 3600mAh, made by Sanyo. But I think the GP3300 still has higher sustainable discharge rate (over 30 amp).



W.

[necronomicon]

Any word on Lithium Ion batteries? I heard somewhere about one high as 7000 mAh. Thanks for the refresher

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

No word yet officially on Litium Ion's. But they are looking verry promising. I'll tell yah what I do know. They weight about half as much as current packs do and they are around 4500 to 7000 Mah in capacity. However there is one big problem, if the cells are drained almost completely they will be ruined, so if someone were to cross the posiitve and negative or have a short in their gun the cells would be ruined. But because their capacity is so high they can sustain a mild Modified R/C racing motor, lets say Trinity Saphire speed gem(17T Single) for 20 minutes!!! That motor puts out a 35 amp draw compared to the 15~25 of airsoftgun motors(airsoft aftermarket ones would have a higher amp draw if they are modified).!!! Pluse their overall size is considerable smaller. So they are far superior in every way. One problem is is that chargers will be expensive for them for the first year or two, and there are only a handful of chargers that currently exist that can charge them, i.e. Tekin BC112A and BC112c and Triton(i think that's what it's called, its relatively new, but can't remember), Turbo Matcher 35 probably can to. There may be others but i'm not sure.
As far as the 3600's, I am aware of them and have been for some time, but as you stated above their sustainable voltage is not as high as Gold Peak's 3300's. Maybe Gold Peak will come of with some Kick A** 3600's. If they do, I will most likely be the first to know and i'll let you guies know as soon as I do. I'm big into R/C racing and always looking for more power, so I try to keep updated on this kinder stuff.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I'm not quite understanding that, your happy you bought the 3300 GP's or your not happy you bought them? Maybe I didn't state my info on the 3300's and 3600's clearly. The 3300's can hold a higher voltage than the 3600's. So for runtime 3600's obviously, but for max power, nothing currently available can beat Gold Peak 3300's. You can get zapped R/C racing packs at www.promatchracing.com and they can assemble the packs in any configuration you want.
You have the discharge backwards for NiMH, you want to discharge them right before you use them to "liven" up the packs, for 1 week storage charge 10 minutes, for more than 1 week storage charge fully. NiCD's are the ones you discharge for storage. I know, it can be confusing, but read carefully and you'll see that its not. If you still don't understand, go to the promatch website and click on faq, then look for battery maintinance.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Let me clarify more.
Storage:Charge for 10 minutes for 1 week or less. Charge fully for more than 1 week for NiMH, for NiCD's you need to discharge fully(.9v per cell).
Charging:The day BEFORE you use your pack in a skirmish cycle it 2 or 3 times. That means that you discharge the rest of the power in the pack from storage, then let it cool down to room temp, then recharge it. If you only stored it for 1 week you only need to cycle it 1 time. If its been several weeks i recommend at least 2 cycles to get the power flowing well in the pack again, 3 is best. When you are done cycling the pack the night before, you should discharge 1 more time then recharge for 10 minutes, and finish charging the morning of the skirmish. Trust me on this one, if you do this you'll get much better performance. This applies to NiMH and NiCD's.
I hope that clears it up.

[mite]

There have been recommendations for the sub-C cell sizes, but what about the smaller batteries that are used so much in airsoft.

Mite

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

As far as maintinance is concerned, it is the same as the larger cells. Follow the same procedures you would for Sub-c and AA sized cells as you for the larger cells. The only difference is that their storage capacity is quite a bit less, therefore they cannot sustain high voltages for any lengthy period of time.
If you follow my reccomendations for your Sub-c and AA sized packs then you will notice a big difference(unless you have been following similar procedures already). The difference in the small packs is more noticeable because the impact an improperly maintained pack has on the gun is greater simply because it cannot sustain higher voltages, therefore every volt that the pack can muster to output is crucial.

[Enoch247]

What about chargers? I currently have a crap wall charger that has no smarts what so ever. Is that terribly bad? I've been seriously considering buying this charger:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1111
Would it be good for me ( I have a 9.6v 1100mah and a 9.6v 600mah battery) or is the wall charger sufficient for me?

p.s. Batteries are the single most confusing concept of airsoft to me. So thanxs for the thread.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

What size cells are you using? Some chargers cannot charge cells smaller than Sub-c. For a similar price I would suggest the Prophet for chargers in the $40 price range, I now they have reliable peack chargers. http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByCategory/Product/Default.aspx?ProdID=DYN4036
If you want to go into the $100~200 range I would suggets Tekin BC112c or BC112a, nothing can beat these suckers, I can say that after 7 years of racing on the world circuite and 2 world titles. If you want in the $300 price range go with the Turbo 35 series, they match, discharge, charge packs all in one.

[mite]

There were recommendations for particular NiCd and NiMH batteries in the Sub-C size (Sanyo 2400 for the NiCd). Is there a similar exact battery recommendation for AA sizes?

Mite

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

None that I can think of, ask around and see what cells can sustain the highest voltage.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I would like to reiterate something about PowerFelxing and NiMH cells. Some people will say that it hurts the cells and others say that it is good for them. Both are right, using powerflex can help reduce the buildup of crystals in the cells, but it can also lead to overcharge! So if you use Flex mode(or similar negative pulse discharge modes on other chargers) be sure to watch the cells closely!

[Enoch247]

CaPtAiN_InSaNo

These are the batteries I have. (600mah (http://www.combatdepot.com/default.asp?pg=products&specific=jphppmj8) ,and 1100mah (http://www.combatdepot.com/default.asp?pg=products&specific=jqcpmqo0) ) Saddly, I know little about them. The bigger of the two batteries have cells with about the diameter of regular AA batteries you would use around the house. The smaller of the two has cells with a larger diameter than AA but smaller than C batteries, but much shorter (I think they're sub C's but I don't know enough to say so)

Also what is the advantage of peak chargers vs wall chargers? Are they faster?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

The 600 Mah pack uses cells smalle than Sub-C, not sure what their size designation it, but it is NOT sub-c. Sub-C cells are the cells used in what is considered LARGE batteries. The 1100 Mah pack uses reguar AA sized cells, even though they are rechargeable they are still rated on the same scale as their nonrechargeable brethren. It is hard to say which one will last longer. The 600 Mah pack may have a lower capacity rating but it has a physically larger cell, which makes up for some of its low capacity rating. The 600 Mah pack will most likely work better because it can output a higher voltage even though it would not last as long. Just buy a couple of them, maybe 2 or 3. I am not sure if the $40 charger i suggested is capable of charging those smaller cells, but I would think that it could safely do so since you can select a lower amperage rate of 1 and 2 amps, which is in the range or 2x the rated capacity of the cells. You may want to E-mail dynamite, just do a google search and ask them about it.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

There is one more thing I would like to clerify about the worthwhileness of zapped cells. Some one mentioned that zapped and matched packs make no difference in airsoft, but I do believe they are only half right. While matched cells would not impact an airsoft gun in any noticeable way zapped cells certainly can! here is why:
Look at a zapped 6 cell(1.55v per cell) and a plain 7 cell for example.
The 6 cell pack can output a total voltage of 9.3 volts(1.55x6) while the standard 7 cell can only output 8.4 volts even though it has 1 more cell. The reason is Zapping is a simple way of increasing the capacity of the cell. The difference is runtime, the 7 cell will be able to sustain its voltage for a longer period of time, but for airsoft applications where we recharge after every skirmish that extra runtime will not come into play or even be noticeable in all likely hood. The point being is that most guns cannot accept an 8 cell battery without mounting it on the outside or doing quite a bit of modification right? So maybe you want a higher ROF or a stronger spring and do not want to do a lot of custom work, this is where zapped cells come into play. A 7 cell zapped to 1.5v per cell will act like an 8 cell, the only drawback is because the physical size for storing energy is less it will not last as long, so you can simply recharge it. By buying a zapped pack(good one, not a cheapo one) you have saved yourself the trouble of trying to jerry rig a larger battery into your gun, even if you did go with an 8 cell and made it a zapped one you would have a pack that acts like a 9 cell giving you the ability to upgarde more or have a higher ROF. So based on this information does it not seem logical to go for the extra money if you have it?

[Agent 47]

ah, my head asplode. in a good way. Sticky the thread!


I need to sit down and read it all thoroughly.
Drew

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

this may be a dumb question, but how do i sticky the thread?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Lol. I guess I didn't waste that 1 hour of free time after all.
If anybody has any particular experiences with certain cells, packs, chargers and manufactueres please feel free to post what you think of them, good or bad. I think it could help people looking for a battery save time and trouble. I can mainly only help with sub-c cells because I have experience with them over several years of racing. But I do not have any particular experience with AA sized and those medium sized packs other than charging them.

So I'll start off with 2400 Mah NiCD's. They are some of the best NiCD's out there, they seem to have quite a bit of punch and runtime, sadly though that is the end of the line for NiCD's, I do not believe there are any common NiCD's that exceed their capacity and punch. I've noticed that 4 amps works best with these cells in terms of general performance and longevity. In fact I bought a 6 cell 2400 matched pack for $15, the guy didn't seem to have much experience with it or how to take care of it, but it survived and works well now after reassembling it and cycling it, they are pretty tough cells so if you want reliability in the NiCD department buy Sanyo 2400's. 2000's are good to if your on a budget, decent capacity with decent price.

The other cells I really like are Gold Peak 3300's. The reason I am going to suggest Gold Peak over Sanyo is because the GP cells are tougher, they can take more abuse for a longer amount of time and still work, the Sanyo cells seem to "die" easier. The GP's also have more kick to them (would be noticeable in terms of ROF and Highly upgraded guns). But don't worry if you have sanyo 3300's, they are still really good cells.

that's my .02$ on personal good experience with 2400's and GP 3300's, now for the bad.

Do NOT buy panasonic 2700's or 3000's. They just don't seem to last, I had a pair of 2700's NiMH and I used them my R/C truck and they only lasted about a year, maybe I just had gotten a bad batch, which happens to any battery company occasionally, but I still don't trust them, at least not nearly as much as Sanyo and Gold Peak. I don't know is Panasonic still makes rechargeable Sub-c's, has anyone seen them around still?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

i'm sorry i didn't ever answer you question about peak chargers versus wall chargers Enoch. I'll try to answer it now.
One of the major differences is that wall chargers charge by a method called Trickle Charging. It basically chargers at verry low amperage rates, probably in the 200 to 250 Mah range. This method of charging takes a considerable amount of time, anywhere from 10 to 20 hours! depending on cell capaicty. It is also quite inacurate when it comes to fully charing the packs.
Peak chragers charge at much higher amperage rates, anywhere from 1 amp all the way to 12 amps depending on manufacturer. Most common is 4 and 5 amps. They often also allow different charge rate settings, such as my Tekin BC112c which I use for racing, i can charge a pack anywhere from .01 amps all the way to 12 amps in increments of .01! The purpose of such a broad range is longevity, it allows the charger to stay updated with increasing cell capacity. Anyhow most ppl would never use that anyway, 1,2,4 and 5 amps are probably enough for most ppl, especially in airsoft. The other MAJOR difference is the PEAK detection. Basically when a battery reaches its absolute full capacity it is considered Peaked(lightbulb going on!). After a battery has reached its full capacity and is still recieving charge its voltage will drop, a peak charger simply detects that drop in voltage, typically between .04 and .03v drop then it shuts itself off or turns to trickle mode(trickle mode in peak chargers is designed to keep the pack fresh because as soon as you take it off the charger it starts to loose power, some more quickly than others, trickle charging in a peak charger keeps the voltage from dropping, it is not inteded to charge it, basically a compensation for the dropping voltage). Some chargers this mode can be disabled, such as my BC112c. So the main reason for buying a peak charger, which you can pick up a decent one for around $40 is to make sure you batteries are getting their full charge, not under charged or overcharged with is verry common with wall chargers. Wall chargers will continue to charge even if the pack is full, which is harmful to the battery. The opposite can also occure with a wall charger, it could undercharge the battery depending on when you take it off, thus your pack will not last as long.

[Enoch247]

Thanks that clears up so much for me.:) Hey is "fast charging" all that terribly bad for battery packs?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

No it is not. I know this is not R/C racing, but the packs are under alot more stress when used in an R/C truck, so I only mention it to illustrate what abuses the packs can take.
Now, on to your question, no it will not decrease the life of your pack any, some people will say yes, but look at who is saying that. If you don't beleive me ask any hobby shop or go on an R/C forum, a peak charger will actually make your packs last longer! because they are not being overcharged. A "fast" charger can possibly shorten the life of the packs conisderably because overcharge will occure more quickly. But if watched carefully no it will not, I would suggest a peak charger over a quicke charger, you can get a solid peak chargers for about $40, duratrax and dynamite make commonly used ones. The extra few dollars is deffinately worth it, you probably will spend more on a spring and metal bushings than on a common peak charger.
In case your confused about the different types of chargers i'll list them and what they do specifically:
1. Wall chargers - Charge by trickle charging, will continue to charge unless unplugged. Over charge is common but not as harmful because of low charge amperages.
2. Fast Chargers/timed chargers - similar to a wall charger, but charges at higher amperage rate, almost always 4 amps, will shut off and turn to trickle mode when timer expires. Overcharge is much more harmful because of the higher amperage rate.
3. Common Peak Chargers - Charges at higher amperage rates similar to fast charger, shuts itself off(usually switches to trickle mode) when the battery has reached full capacity. Several adjustable charge rates, 1, 2, 4, 5 amps most common.
4. High Performance Peak Chargers - Adjustable charge rates, adjustable cutoff, PowerFlex capabilities, discharge capabilities, battery matching capabilities, adjustable charge profiles. These chargers are common in R/C racing, but rare in airsoft cause most of the time you would not need those features, I would say that the only commonly used charger that comes close to fitting this category would be the Duratrax Intellipeak series which runs around $120.

[XSidewinderX]

I have a simple tip for those with the mini/large adapter problems. I had that problem and I just took some wires and stripped them and just stick the bare ends into the batterys sockets. Never had a problem for the year/half I have been doing it...

[fishgoh0nk]

OK.....i think i narrowed it down to my batteries......

i had posted on another forum about my charger, they pointed out to me that it shouldn't be used on MINIs.... well, guess what, mine happens to be a mini.... freaking owner's manual for universal dumbass charger didn't tell me that..... only anything between 1100 and 3000 mah...... freaking A....

so i probably fried my battery.... is it really fried? or can i recover it? the charger charges at 2amps, i didn't know that was bad for it..... is it fried?? or can i recover it??! PLEASE HELP!!!!







ok... this is how i found out.... i opened up the gun, looked at the lower gearbox, it's all good, perfect shim, everything.

opened up the upper gearbox holding the piston, i found polycarb black mixed in with my lube, i scraped that out, and i assumed that my piston was getting torn because it mite be too big, so i shaved the piston guides a bit. relubed. didn't work.

so then i took it out again, and changed the spring from my m100 back to stock ics.... m80-90. batteries wouldn't run it. i had just charged both NOT on my universal dumbasscharger, but on my wall charger for the amount of time i needed to. 600/500 = 1.2 hours + 30 minutes just for trickle........ the battery was fresh.... it shot a shot, and then died.... i ran JUST the gears and it ran out... are my batteries dead?

[Captain Juno]

All right, just trying to get this cleared up even though it was talked about a while ago. Ok, i have a 3000mAh Ni-MH battery and I understand the cycling part and the storage part, but not the discharging part. So, how long do i discharge it before i play? btw, i have the marui discharger if that matters.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Sorry guies, I haven't been around for a while. Juno, basically what you want to do is discharge the pack the day or night before the event you use it at, then just recharge it. This does NOT need to be done if you have already cycled the pack a few times within the last couple of days, but is reccommended. A pack sitting even for a few days can build up significant amounts of crystals. It will "wake" up the pack allowing it to charge to its fullest capacity. It will also run with more "spunk", so you'll get a higher ROF and a speedier response, this is especially important if your pack strains from upgrades.
Here is an example:
Lets say you play a game in january, then you don't play again until the end of feb. A couple of days befor you play again in feb. you would cycle the pack 2~4 times to get it running well. Then the day before or the morning of the match in feb. you would cycle the pack 1 time to freshen it up and get it running its best. Its sort of like a car, if you let it sit for to long it wears out just from sitting, the tires crack, rubber decays paint peals, gaskets become brittle etc..But if you use it a few times a month it keeps up much better because the rubber is being flexed, the car gets washed, the gaskets get heated so they don't crack up. Yes cycling the pack does put some use onto it, but it will perform much better, and if you only use it a couple of times a month it will last you years of good service.

[DeltaSniper]

As per suggestion of several, thread is edited and stickied.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Thx for the sticky, hopefully this can help more people.

Sidewinder, i have a solution that is a little less "ghetto rigged" than yours, use alegator clips. You can get them at any electronics store, about 10 for $4 or $5. You can also make an adapter that has the opposite end plug that your charger has, and then put allegator clips on the end of the plug, so you can just plug in the adapter when you want to charge a pack with different plugs. Also I would suggest a better plug than all of those, and not only can it hanle much higher amp draw and will last much much longer, they are smaller than the mini plugs, both of the Deans Ultra Plugs connnected are about as long as 1 mini plug, and they are meant for high amp draw so you will be getting every bit of power to your motor. They are easy to solder, all you need is a soldering iron, lighter/match/heatsource, some 60/40 rosin core solder(can pick up at radioshack or most hardware stores such as Ace/Homedepot/Lowes) and a wire stripper/scisors/hobbyknife/very strong front teeth:). The instructions are one the back of the plugs bag, if you don't like reading, they are self explanitory. http://www.promatchracing.com/femalemalelrg.jpg

Also here are some alligator clips in case your not sure what i'm talking about.
http://www.elexp.com/clp_allg.htm

[fishgoh0nk]

Capt. insano - are my batteries dead? please read my post. what are ways of killing your battery or permanently damaging it?

[Fresh]

Most of this can probably be answered by CaPtAiN_InSaNo since it seems as if this thread is owned by him although any input would be great.

I have been researching a lot on batteries and I have looked over this thread to find some of the answers I was looking for. This information is very interesting to me and I would like to learn some more.

My first question was about discharge rate. What exactly is it and how do you calculate it, or is it an intensive property? Someone posted before that the higher the discharge rate, the better the battery. Can someone explain discharge rate to me?

On Ni-Cad vs Ni-Mh, I have never heard one good thing about Ni-Mh. I read the first post from CaPtAiN_InSaNo but I do not fully understand which is better or why. I hear that they have a higher internal resistance which can screw up burst shooting and that they require more attentive care when using and storing. Is this true and if so, why?

Also, I personally have a mini Ni-Cad 8.4V 600Mah battery. I have been using one of the intellipeak chargers where you can adjust the charging amps from 0-6amps. How do I apply my personal battery information to the charger output? It would seem very difficult and long to charge it at .3 amps per the first post on this thread. How long would I know to use the charger if it did not have a peak charge light/shutoff on it?

I would like to know most of this so that I can apply this information to making my own batteries in the future.

I know that this is a lot of questions but I figured someone answering these questions personally would help me to comprehend the questions to a higher understanding than reading it on a web page.

Thanks.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Discharge rate is measured in Ampers, it is the amount of energy draw a battery is subjected to. Basically the Mah is a time rateing. Sub-C cells, which are what make up a Large battery are all rated based on a 30 amp draw, so a 2700 Mah(milliamp Hours) cell will last 2700 Milliamp Hours at 30 amps of draw, in theory. A battery rated at a higher discharge rate(say 30 amps for example) is capable of handling a high power draw than a pack rated at 20 amps. Most airsoft guns with EG700 or EG1000 or equivalent will suck about 18 to 20 amps with a M120 spring. A modified can such up 25+ amps (an R/C modified can suck up to 40 amps!!).

As for NiMH have more IR it depends on the capacity of the cell, lower capacitys such as 2500 or 2700 Mah(they make lower capacities for NiMH, but only in smaller cells like AA's) does have a high IR, but newer Sanyo 3000/3300 and 3300 GP's have same or lower IR and 2400 NiCD's.

Nicle Cadium or NiCD is an older technology, an it reached its limits years ago, 2400 Mah being its maximum capacity. Nickle Metal Hydrate which is a much newer technology(1999 was when the capacity of NiMH cells exceeded the 2400 Mah barrier).

NiCD's have a memory, which means that they are sensitive to how they are used such as discharge rate, storage and charge rate. Currently they are more picky than NiMH.

NiMH have no memory, NiMH USED to have a higher IR, but that was a problem of the past. If you ran a NiCD in an air soft gun only half way then left it for a week the next time you went to use it it would run flat, meaning the IR(Internal Resistance) would have built up and capacity deminished, resulting in much poorer performance under stress until your cycled it a few times. A NiMH pack would run about the same every time regardless of what you discharge it at and if you left it half charged. Currently Gold Peak has set the new standard in cell technology, the 3300 GP cells are the most powerful on the market to date, they can handle a higher amp draw for more amount of time than any other cell. Sanyo 3000's are not as good, but they can handle about the same draw a 2400 NiCD can with more run time.

Which pack for wich application? Its easy. 3300 GP cells have more capacity and can sustain a higher voltage than any other cell on the market, so you will get a higher ROF, more upgrade potential and more runtime than any other cell, it also has the good characteristics of NiMH cells such as no memory, longer rutime, and a new characterisitc that no cell previously had, the highest sustainable voltage.

Now the lower packs, 2400 NiCD vs. 3000 NiMH. A 2400 would be best used in a stock gun, under lower amp draw conditions they tend to out put more voltage, however they suffer under high loads, a 3000 would be much better. Under high loads NiCD's tend to loose alot of efficiency,
where NiMH tend to be able to handle it better. A 3000 does have a little more IR than a 2400 NiCD, so it will more consistently handle its heavy power load for a significantly greater amount of time(because of capacity). So for Heavily upgraded guns go with NiMH, but for stock or lightly upgraded guns, 330 maybe up to 350 a 2400 would most likely perform better than a 3000.

You misunderstood what I said about charge amperages. I stated that trickle charging occures at those amperages. Generally you want your charge amperage to be ABOUT 2x to 3x the rated Milliamp hours.
A higher charge rate, to a certain point(too high will damage the cell permenantly) will yield better power but at the cost of run time, on the reverse a lower charge amperage will result in more run time but less "spunk".
Example: 600 x 2 = 1.2 amps or 600 x 3 = 1.8 amps. So 2 amps would be safe because its in the range of about 3x the rated capacity. However this factor goes down a bit with more powerful cells and types. For a 3300 GP I would not suggest going above 6 amps, 5 amps seems to give a good combination of run time and spunk. For 3000's 5-6 amps. For 2400's 4-5 amps. 2000's 4-5 amps. 1700's 4 amps, as lower capacity cells under 1000 Mah seem to hanlde a higher multiple.
Try 2 amps for your pack, 3 would be pushing it.

There is a certain degree of expereince that you will gain in time, as you use a wider variety of batteries you'll learn that each type and capacity heave certain characteristics which not always coinside with the norm, also varys from pack to pack. Do a little experimentation and see.

[Fresh]

Since Captain Insano spiked my interest in batteries, i have read a TON and learned even more.

Here are some very good sites:

http://www.moltech.com/techdata/appmanuals/Nicd_Application_Manual.asp

http://www.moltech.com/techdata/appmanuals/NiMH_Application_Manual.asp

http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html

http://www.srbatteries.com/nimh.htm

The ultimate quote I was looking for is as follows about the issue of NICd vs NiMh (located in the SR battery URL):

"The disadvantage of NiMh cells is that they usually have much higher internal impedance. That means that if you try and draw a lot of current from NiMh cells, they will drop excessively in voltage which can cause poor performance or the device they are powering to shutdown.”

This ultimately meant to me that for higher than battery rated amperage draw from airsoft guns, a NiCd battery should be used or lower voltages and higher impedances will occur from NiMh. If the NiMh cells are rated at the discharge rate that your airsoft gun draws in amps, NiMh would be fine.

These articles tell a lot more than I could reiterate with the time I have. I would suggest reading the 2 shorter ones for sure and then glancing though the 2 longer manuals for NiCd and NiMh.

[HardcoreKiller]

i have a lithium polymer battery pack for my team losi mini-t and it can reach speeds over 50mph but that is with a speical motor,i want to know how much the ROF would increase?

[HardcoreKiller]

captain juno whats up?i go to somerset all the time my uncle has a cottage down near conley bottom at lake cumberland.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Well, I can tell you one thing, some of the information on the last link is incorrect, especially about high amperage draws. The cells they are talking about are designed for use in electric devices such as power tools, phones etc.. Those cells are not manufactured to the same specifications, tollerances as the cells used for R/C racing. Also the information about holding charge is the opposite and not at the same time, NiMH cells, at least modern ones loose less charge immediately, but more charge over long periods of time. NiCD's will loose their peak after only a few minutes of being off the charger and IR builds up as the pack sits unused, but they tend to be able to retain the power much longer. NiMH in a sense self discharge over time. As for heat they are not hugely different, both cell types loose efficiency as heat increases. What you need to look for is a site for R/C as the manufacturers are contracted to make them to certain specifications. I can tell you that a 8 cell 3300 GP zapped pack is capable of powering two 8 turn single modified motors with 35+ amp draw per a motor for 4 minutes while a NiCD will not power it any longer and not as well, after 2 minutes the NiCD will not be able to sustain its voltage. That's more than 2x its rated draw, the reason is because, as I said before the cells made for the R/C hobby have much different specifications, so they undergo different process at the manufacture and by the company that sells them such as promatchracing. They hand pick the cells that have the lowest IR as well as match, zap and test each cell. So there is a big difference in intended useage and capabilities. Its sort of like two different versions of a car, there's the GT which is made for pure performance and there's the luxury version made for comfort and durability.

http://www.promatchracing.com/faq.htm

That being said I would like to apologize if I sound like an A**. But I can tell you that the sites you gave links to have not subjected their cells to nearly as much stress as in the world of R/C, and they can be under similar conditions in airsoft, so I think the R/C guys know whats best in this situation, however kudos for the links explaining the technology and how it works.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

What I am really looking forward to is lithium Ion packs, they are significantly smaller, 2x the capacity of the 3300 GP cells and they are even more consistent. The only draw back is that they become useless if they are completely discharged, so it will require more care when useing.

[Fresh]

Captain,

No you dont sound like an a$$. I am really interested in this stuff and the more help, the better. I understand where you are coming from about R/C versus drill/power tool batteries.

The only decent site i have found for buyin gbatteries is onlybatteries.com and batteryspace.com Can you tell me where i can get the higher end NiMh batteries so that i can build a pack? Thanks.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

If you really want, I believe that www.promatchracing.com sell cells in bulk, i think its 12 cells for $xx. I THINK they zap the bulk cells but don't match them, you'll have to check on that. Basically matching means that all the cells are at the same power level so when you charge them they all get fully charged and they all die at the same time. In an unmatched pack some cells will be overcharged and others under charged resulting in less performance and life(like the packs you buy at onlybatteries.com, they are not handpicked nor do they undergo and further improvement process. But you CAN have them matched by most R/C racing oriented hobby shops, of if you really get into it you could by a tekin BC112c charger for $160 and their battery matching/discharge station for another $200 and match cells yourself. Also you can buy their packs(4, 6 cells) unassemled(these are zapped as well as matched) or have them assemble them there for you. Also if you check their fact section they explain what all the numbers on the labels mean and they have all the building materials for you, shrink wrap for the cells, silicone wire, battery jiggs(i just use clamps and 2x4's) etc...it is for racing packs, but they are not much more expensive than onlybatteriepacks.com and they have a warranty. Also when your looking at cells there are varying degrees of zapping, a stock cell directly from the factory is at 1.12v, promatch cells packs that are zapped to 1.18v per cell!!!, but those are very expensive, I would reccommend their base packs at 1.5 or 1.6v as they are much more affordable. I can tell you that they are worth it, but you must also have a charger to charge them, you need a peak charger, a good beginners charger is the Dynamite Prophet for $40, http://www.rcmodels.com/rc-dyn-4036.html .

Another good website is www.teamtekin.com . Their chargers are expensive, but they are the best for their price for high performance, this something you would keep for many years, i believe their BC112 series originally came out in the early 90's, since its so adaptable it's still one of the best out there. Anyhow there's alot of good info on that site, the forums are good too.

[Steamer]

CaPtAiN_InSaNo

I have a 9.6v GP3300 pack for my Crane stock, about 4-5 months old. It seems my ROF has been a little better lately, so I grabbed a Multimeter from work to check voltage. I haven't charged in a few weeks, so I tested before charging, and got 10.4v. Immediately after a full charge it read 11.4v, and after about 500 shots it is now reading 10.8v.
I wish I had tested it long ago, but is this normal for a 9.6 pack(or any pack) to do over time, or is it impending doom. Doesnt bother me at all in fact I'm happy, as I was able to record 18bbps(w/m120).

Thanks

[Locutus]

Steamer, this is normal. Your battery should have read the same when it was new.

[Steamer]

Good to hear Locutus, thanks

Last I recorded I was getting around 16bbps, now getting 18bbps. Only thing different is a TM bevel gear, if I ever figure out why, it'll be topic for another disscusion.

The voltage seems a bit extreme for a 9.6, I'll try and grab another Multimeter.

[Locutus]

It is not unusual for an 8.4v battery to read up to 11v on a multimeter. However under high discharge the internal resistance increases and causes your output voltage to decrease.

This is why commonly nimh batteries will give you a slower ROF than a nicad (or not be able to power the gun at all), because the nimh has a greater internal resistance. So under load the nimh will dip lower than the nicad of the same voltage. However the newer nimh batteries are a lot a better.

[Steamer]

ahhh....
You are correct, I just tested under load(w/m120), and got 9.2v sustained.

Thanks again

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Yes and no. NiMH on average have higher IR, but 3300 GP's are an exception, they can handle loads of up to 45 amps!!! I know this because they are the pack of choice for modified R/C motors, which are waaaay more powerful than airsoft motors. 3000's are in the middle, about the same IR 2400 NiCD's, however this is for sanyo 3000's, i cannot say how other manufacturers comapre. As for your pack that is not unusual, if your pack is only putting out 8.4v when it's fully chaged and its a 7 cell then you need to worry. The reason is because the 1.2v rating is the theoretical average sustained voltage throughout the cells discharge curve. In real life it's often different, my 8 cell was outputting 14 v, although my pack was zapped to 1.55 v per cell which would explain the high output. As far as packs, the best you need for an airsoft gun are the 3300 GP's, I would reccomend them for any upgraded gun or even stock gun, they have the highest sustainable output of any cell currently out there, you get an IR that's actually lower than NiCD's. A good quality set of 3000's can match the IR of the best 2400's, http://www.balakracing.com/trinityultrametal.htm
So when you say NiMH have higher IR, you should say lower Mah NiMH cells have higher IR as they are reminiscent of what used to be. Remember technology is constantly iproving, the R/C industry is very demanding as much much larger than airsoft or paintball, so the technology is always cutting edge and evolving itno something better, Sub-C cells are used almost exclusive to power electric R/C, so the to have undergone much change. I hope this can help inform you on your next purchase. However 2700 Mah NiMH cells and lower do have higher IR as they have never really been exploited, so watch what you buy, i suggest 3000 sanyo and 3300 Gold Peak(GP).

[Steamer]

Thanks InSaNo

I was lookng for a good pack when I bought it, glad I found it.

I was thinking of having a Prime Crane pack made from GP2200's (4/5 sub C's) in a 10.8v flavor. Do these 2200's share the same low IR?

[Locutus]

Yes I am aware of that. That is why I said "commonly".

We sell the cells you are referring to and they are indeed excellent cells, even the lower mAh cells.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I'm not sure, but you can ask the guies at www.promatchracing.com , as they sell 2200 GP's for reciever packs on nitro cars.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

GP has released their new 3700's and they are now the standard for promatch. I suggest you get your packs their, they have really good packs for a decent price and they can assemble them in any configuration you can think of as long as you ask them to. I just got another 8 cell 3300 GP pack for $54 shipped, and its zapped to 1.174v per cell!!! Their 3300's are on sale to make room for the new 3700's.

[SamtheSHIZNIT]

Wow Captain Insano, You sure do know alot about batteries. thanks for all the hard work to help fellow airsofters understand more about batteries, including me. Thanks.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

You are most welcome. I figure if i help every one else out in an area where i know alot then maybe if i need help in an area where i'm not so knowledgeable then some one else will help me. Acutally this has just happened. I was looking to get into sniping, but foxtrot and a few others who have tryed it explained it to me. I've decided to get an AK and turn it into an AKM instead of sniping. I would have spent all that money on a rifle and not liked it at all.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I have some more information to add. This may or may not apply to you depending on the configuration of your battery and the available battery space. Mostly this applys to full stock AR-15's.
Discharging is important, but equalization is even more important to battery performance. However, this can ONLY be done on a battery that is side by side configuration. Equalization trays run about $20~$30. Integy makes some good ones for $19.99.
Basically, since a battery pack is made of of many cells. When charging they are all being charged togater. Now if you recall a matched pack means that all cells are cycled so that they are all at the same capacity(.9v per cell when discharged). As you use them more and more the cells start to take on their own characteristics. Such as one cell will discharge faster or slower than another. When the total voltage of the pack is to low to run a motor not all the cells are dead. Some may have a decent amount of energy in them while others may be completely dead. When you charge the pack again these partailly dead cells are getting overcharged and the completely dead cells are getting undercharged. This causes the pack to wear out quicker and perform much worse. An equalization tray simply discharges each cell individually so that they are all at the same level. That way when you recharge the pack all cells will be charged properly. Again eqalization requires side by side( ||||||, not === configuration). Because side by side allows access to each individual cell without disassembling the pack. Its worth the effort if you want to battery to perform their best. IF you like wroking on AEG's, consider it. You'll have the longest lasting and fastest firing AEG on the field. Can be a great advantage.

[fishgoh0nk]

Ok, i got this question, about a really bad batch of batteries... i've accumulated a 600mah and a 1700mah, both 9.6, and sanyo 1.2V cells...

i got them from different places, about a year and a half ago...

ok, so here's whats up

my batteries are ruined... i think, from the Universal Smart Charger, the blue box charger that charges at 2 amps... apparently, that is very high to be charging minis on... and i think i ruined them this way... but i'm not sure if they're ruined, because they DO hold power, just not enough amperage to power anything i want.

an 8.4 600mah i recently bought can power my ICS m4 with a m120 spring. my 9.6 1700mah cannot. i recently got a new charger and gauged the discharge rate of both batteries, everything seems fine... both batteries discharge at 8.4 volts, and around 4.0 amps... actually, the 8.4 is a little lower, around 3.5... everything seems fine, except the 1700 blows air when i try to shoot my gun... basically, the motor will try to run, i hear it click, and then stop.

what is the technical analysis of my batteries... besides that it's F*cked up... is it permanently F*cked up? or can i redo the charge somehow.... so far it seems like it wouldn't, but what would i know, i'm a battery noob. I've cycled that battery on my new TLP charger for about 4 times, discharging, and recharging at 1.7amps, let it cool... i've even tried to do it at .7... nothing seems to go...


OH! and i got this other question, when i discharge my 8.4 600mah battery, it discharges, then i charge, and the TLP LCD screen gives me a capacity readout of 493... as opposed to the 600 i'm supposed to get. What gives?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

It seems to me that the 1700 pack has accumulated to much IR(internal resistance) to handle a 15 amp draw. Now when you tested the reason they both output roughly the same amperages is that the discharger is discharging at a lower amperage. Find something with about 20 amps load, say a 10 light bulb discharger or an eletronic one. Then see what their amperage loads are. Also if you know some one who is into R/C or there is a hobby shop nearby you might be able to have a racer PowerFlex(negative Delta V) your packs. Basically what it does is "burp" the cells. Over time, especially NiCD's, cells with loose their ability to charge from being heated, charged and discharged constantly, also from sitting unused for months at a time(which is acutally the worst). When you flex the cells it will charge then for a second put a high amp descharge current on the cells then continue charing again. This helpds break down the crystal buildup and allows the cells to take a better charge and reduce IR buildup. Now the cells will never get lower IR than they were made with, but you can reduce it back down to close to when they were new. If your cells have just been sitting around for a while (several months) i suggest charge and then discharge(lighbulb, 8 to 10 bulbs simulates the load of an airsoft gun motor) several times. This conditions the cells and they will "wake up". Depending on how old they are they simply might be worn out. Even in R/C though, packs usually last several years.

[fishgoh0nk]

mmmmm thanks, i'll just try to cycle them... or find a hobby shop...

i haven't let this battery pack sit for that long... i think i just had a bad charger and charged it wrong... either that or i bought bad batteries... =)

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

2 amps shouldn't be to much for a 600 mah pack, a bit high, but it wouldn't damage them like what you are describing, at least not immediately. Remember try to keep the charge time between 1x(.6amp) and 2x(1.2amp) the rated capacity. 3x(1.8amp) is ok but starting to push a bit. I would suggest 1 to 1.5 amps charge rate. I'd also suggest using a discharger with 10 bulbs, it will simulate the draw of a stock motor pretty closely(if your good witha soldering iron you can make one for only a few dollars, the bulbs are $.50 each at most napa stores.

[fishgoh0nk]

hahah, thanks, i think i fixed my battery....

i just kept putting it through a charging cycle... it seems to regain some ampage... it actually runs my gun now... still winds slow... but i'll keep cycling it.... is there any harm by cycling it so much? i think it put it through about 12 cycles between today and yesterday...

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Cycling a pack is just like using it in a match, it isn't really any more stressful. Since modern cells will tak 1000 to 2000 charges before they die cycling it a few times to get it running will not hurt it. The pack should last several years. Normally you don't need to cycle the cells more than 1 or 2 times every month. But it won't hurt it. I suggest you do it once a month if you don't use them regularly, that way you are putting minimal use on the cells while keeping them fresh. Its like a car, if you let it sit for several years all the gaskets will dry rot and you then have to rebuild the car or the tires crack and start leaking air. But if you use it occasionally it will keep much better while getting almost no wear.

[fishgoh0nk]

how much should i charge a GP 3300 9.6v nimh battery... ?

i just got it and it runs too fast for my motor, i charged it at 3amps... and it's just super super super fast! should charging it lower at 2 slow it down?

Thanks

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Most common charge rates for 3300 GP's are between 5 and 6 amps. I personally prefer 5.5 amps as it seems to give the best combination of power and run time. However a 9.6v(8 cell pack) is too much for a M100/SP100 or equvalent and lower spring. Even a Sp110 or M120 it is a bit much for one reason, pistons. i've done lots of experimenting with durability of pistons being pushed by a 400 fps spring with very high rates of fire (8 cell 3300 GP zap to 1.75v per cell). It simply eats away at the piston like nothing else unless you get a titanium coated or metal piston, but then it eats away at the gearbox(because of weight) and the sector gear. Personally i'd rather replace a piston. Generally the lower the amperage you charge at the more run time but less puch you get, in your case charging at 2 amps will not cut it. There are simply to many cells there for a lower charge rate to conteract your problem. All you need to do is remove 1 cell, its not terribly difficult if you can solder decently, if you can't solder well, take it to a local hobby shop and ask them to remove a cell. 8.4v(7 cell) is plenty sufficient for any AEG unless maybe you upgrade to 450 and use it as a sharp shooter, 9.6 might be preferable then in order to keep a snappy trigger response. You can get replacement shrink wrap for packs at hobby shops to, its only a few dollars for several feet. And all you need it a hair dryer to make it shrink around the pack. A 7 cell stick pack is generally configured like this ===| . In your case all you need to do is remove one cell at the end, then rotate the cell adjacent to the other six and solder the positive to the negative with the silver bars.

[fishgoh0nk]

hahaha, i'd take your advice, but it seems my piston can't handle anything over m100.... i had an m120 in there and used my GP cell, i lost fps due to the fact the gears still spun so fast and caught the piston in mid cycle, only giving me half the power air.... and in the end, about 200 rounds later, my piston stripped.... LOL! i'm running the m100 with the GP cell, and it runs great! no wear on the piston as far as 300 rounds going through it..., this thing fires 1000+ rpm!!! LOL!!!! i absolutely love it.... what do u think?

=)

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Sounds good to me, just remember to try to avoid long bursts. I had a similar setup in my P90 before i sold it, it has a SP110(410 fps chronoed) and 8 cell 3300 GP pack i managed to fit iniside of the gun(i put a few cells here and there, lol, took me days to get them in some spots i didn't know they could fit). But after about 5k rounds the piston started seeing significant wear. But its all good, it would have lasted another 5k. So with a high ROF you might have to replace the piston a bit more often, but its an easy job and they aren't expensive, so i'd say your setup sounds good. Now i'm going for realism in my AK-74m. So i decided on a 7 cell 3300 GP to keep the ROF around 800 RPM. By the way, how you like those GP cells? Alot of kick? That's why we use them in R/C, they seem to have lower IR, so they can withstand quite a bit of load.
And yes i acutally have the elusive $400 Guarder AK-74M kit(which has been discontinued for some time now) i came acrost on a good deal. I've been working on restoring the kit as it was a bit damaged(stripped screw holes, a few missing parts). But i'm almost done and its a solid piece now. I'll have to get some pictures up soon.
Also, i would suggest NOT using systema springs, they seem to put more strain on the gears without increased FPS. A Guarder SP110 will give you 400 FPS and its not quite as hard on the gears. You may say "but how can it produce the same FPS then", i say, its the metal quality, the SP springs have a much better quality of metal that is more consistent throughout the spring, its not so much total power output, but rather how smoothly the springs compress and decompress. Consistency is the key to everything in airsoft.

[fishgoh0nk]

I love the GP cells, they're so much better than my crummy sanyos that finally broke on me... they're 8.4 and 1700mah and can't run jack crap over m100... BLAH. I'll take your advice on the systema springs, i agree, it seems harder to push down for some reason, must be the composition of the metal.

I also own an sp 120 that i accidentally bought... thinking it was the same as m120... LOL, those stripped my ICS stock piston and wouldn't run on my old batteries, i tried it in my current setup- it runs, but it wears the piston too much. taht's the one that stripped my second piston after my stock.

Thanks for your help! INSANEbATTERYY MANNNN

[gmaximus]

Am I understanding you correctly that the motors used in R/C are a lot more powerful than airsoft motors? Is there a reason no one has modded an R/C motor into an airsoft gun yet (too big or too powerful)?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

You are correct, and R/C class motor is much different in CAN design. Think of it this way, imagine an AEG motor twice and wide and a bit shorter and you get the standard sized 540 R/C motor. Now imagine the most power aftermarket airsoft motor(eagle force hummer 1300 L) and double the power draw and total power output(such as RPM and torque). That would be a mild modified R/C motor. They are much bigger in diameter while being a bit shorter on average. Also a stock R/C motor will generate around 30,000 to 35,000 RPM!!! A modified, such as a 6.5 turn single high torque armature will produce more than 65,000 RPM!!! That's almost twice the fastest airsoft motor. But R/C motors are for racing, which is about speed. Airsoft motors have much different requirements, they need to be much more durable and almost maintinance free. I would discourage anyone from buying aftermarket "modified" motors for airsoft guns unless you are the gun guru type. Because after only a few bags of ammo that motor will need a rebuild in order to run properly. So stick with stock motors, they are much more durable. Besides, if you want higher ROF all you need is a bigger/more powerful battery, softer spring or higher speed gears. I find that stock gears are more than capable of handling 800~900 PRM with a Sp110(which my AK-74M chronod around 400~ 410, i used poor mans chrono, went straight through bottom of coke can 5 times in a row, and thats the outer edge close to the fold!!). In any case i've met many pple who completely negate their motors when doing a rebuild. its easy to clean, all you need is a bottle of electric motor cleaner(best use the R/C stuff as its specifically made for this type of application), and some bushing/bearing oil(again use hobby stuff, the motor cleaner and oil will not cost more than $10 or $11 and will last you years). Then clean the motor, reoil the bushings/bearings and it will run much better. See, what happens is that brush dust accumulates inside the motor, especially on the commutator as that is where the brushes come in contact with the armature. Then the dust starts to clog up the channels in the comm wich continually cut at the brushes to ensure they are making fresh metal contact. Whent that happens resistance builds up and the motor looses power and RPM. So a clean motor will make your gun shoot faster and run longer. It takes less than 5 minutes to do. I'd suggest it every time you rebuild your gearbox. Which i generally do at 15k~20k rounds. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it at that interval, every gun and form of gun has different uses and abuses, so just use your best judgment as to when you think it needs a rebuild.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Originally posted by fishgoh0nk
I love the GP cells, they're so much better than my crummy sanyos that finally broke on me... they're 8.4 and 1700mah and can't run jack crap over m100... BLAH. I'll take your advice on the systema springs, i agree, it seems harder to push down for some reason, must be the composition of the metal.

I also own an sp 120 that i accidentally bought... thinking it was the same as m120... LOL, those stripped my ICS stock piston and wouldn't run on my old batteries, i tried it in my current setup- it runs, but it wears the piston too much. taht's the one that stripped my second piston after my stock.

Thanks for your help! INSANEbATTERYY MANNNN

Lol. Sorry to hear that. If you go with guarder springs use the SP110, almost all of them are right around 400 depending on gun and other upgrades. They seem to very consistant and decently easy on the gearbox.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

Is it me or is this post getting very big? Or thread i should say.

[SpecialOp7]

for an mp5 , i have a sanyo 8.4 battery is this a high enough bettery? i'm new to this. (battery's) b.c doesn't betery determine rps?and my rps is low.

[x-statix]

That battery is fine, but I wouldn't get a 9.6 volt because I just wouldn't trust a UTG Mp5 to be able to handle it. I've seen you post about wanting a higher ROF before, honestly it isn't that important. My mp5 with 8.4 volt still shoots faster than my g36 with a 9.6.

[SpecialOp7]

o ok. thanks.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

I agree, 8.4v or 7 cells is plenty for almost all upgrades up to 400 fps. I'd suggest either sanyo 3000's or GP's 3300/3700's. Depending on how much you want to spend. For high ROF, i.e. 9.6v or 8 cell i'd stay at 350 fps, 400 with that battery puts alot of wear on the gearbox, and things just don't seem to last. Plus, a good 7 cell with a SP110(400 fps) will produce about 800~900 rds/minute. Which is a realistic ROF. My AK103 has a 7 cell 3300 GP pack in it and does between 800 and 900 rpm. Its very accurate to. I find that guns with fixed barrels, such as the AK or G3 series to be a bit more accurate than the AR-15's because the barrels are locked into place. Not to big a difference, but enough.

[specter357]

is there suposed to be a fuse in the wire coming from the gun to the batt.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

yes, the purpose of the fuse is to protect the geargox in case of a jam. However if you have confidence in the gearbox then you may want to forego the fuse and just hard wire it. I would deffinately reccomend leaving the fuse for high upgraded FPS or ROF guns.

[vbtb110]

Im trying to figure out the best battery for a stock Classic Army G36c. Got any suggestions on it InSaNo?

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

That depends on how much room you have, give me a picture of the battery compartment or a link where i can see it, i might be able to dig something up. I think the G36c uses a smaller type 4/5c cells or AA sized. You could use the smaller AA sized packs and use like 10 cells for 15 v of power, promatch racing has GP 2300 MAH Nitro Car reciever batterys that would work well.

[elmariachi227]

Originally posted by CaPtAiN_InSaNo
That depends on how much room you have, give me a picture of the battery compartment or a link where i can see it, i might be able to dig something up. I think the G36c uses a smaller type 4/5c cells or AA sized. You could use the smaller AA sized packs and use like 10 cells for 15 v of power, promatch racing has GP 2300 MAH Nitro Car reciever batterys that would work well.

There are custom made batteries that require a bit of modification of the foregrip compartment for the mini-battery packs. However, you can also purchase larger foregrips that accomodate large battery packs.

The battery compartment 'stock' is very tight. While lengthwise there is a tiny bit of play, I've noticed that the rubber sleeve that holds the batteries together has been torn off at certain points from sliding the foregrip back on.

There are slightly higher MAH mini-batteries you can purchase that will extend battery time for a stock G36C, above the 'default' mini-battery packs.

Personally, my setup is a bit unique.

I cut the wire from the gun at the end of the fuse and routed it to a small bank of capacitors (which are stored in the foregrip) and routed the wire out the gun to the stock. The open area in the stock can actually fit two mini battery packs side by side and can be held in with whatever you want.

I do not know what type of batteries come with each of the mini-battery packs, but if insano would like, I'll look into it when I get home.

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

It all comes down to power. that's the biggest problem with guns like the G36 or AKS series assault rifles because there just isn't a whole lot of room of extra power. Current technology is somewhat limited in minaturization of cells. Sounds like elm has a good idea. However the only problem with capacitors is that while if you have several of them your going to "dump" your power at a certain time, that time is not guaranteed to be when you need it. There reall is no way to completely control when the caps dump their power unless you had a digitally controlled power regulator that controls or cutts off current flow tot he caps so they don't reach full charge and dump power until you need it. The simplest method is having higher capacity cells at about 8.4~9.6, a 7 or 8 cell pack. Now AA sized cells have one BIG problme, IR. Even though you can get them in up to 2300~2500 mah capacities, which is not bad for a small cells, their higher IR prevents them from handling high currents. Now AEG's draw about 12~20 amps max even with hotter armatures that are used on CA or ICS guns. So that's not a whole lot. You could concievable mount cells in different places in the gun. I have seen teh stock mod where they were able to fit 4 4/5 sub c cells in the stock, and another 7 cell pack in the front. But i don't know where to get high quality 4/5 sub c cells at. I think you might be stuck with the crappy 600~1800 mah range, which gives you little run time and poor performance compared to something like 8 cell 4200 mah Intellect cells which can take over 45 amp draw. You could use a battery bag, or even better but more expensive LARGE PEQ's, they hold up to 9 cell large packs. Yah their big and heavy, but it looks fairly realistic and conceals the battery in a device that would be mounted on a real gun.

[Killbucket]

So I'm not alone...-I just couldn't accept having only 1100Mah available.

You can use up to 10 (12v!!!) standard RC cells in common stick pack formations in a holder resembling a grenade launcher
Now to go shopping for a c-mag....

[Killbucket]

a pic...
http://www.air-sharp.com/thompson_batterystrap%20proto031707_4.jpg

[CaPtAiN_InSaNo]

That's a creative way to store the battery pack, glad more people are thinking outside the conventional ways. Now you can see what i've been trying to tell people for the past 3 years, battery power makes the big difference in whether or not you can put in a heavier spring and still have a good rof. My slr, which i used at BF3 was mistaken for a CA M249 saw several times cause the ROF is very high, but i also have a SP120 spring pushing 403 fps. So its alot to do with the battery, motor as well, the most common problem is battery power. CA, ICS, and eagle force motors are pretty decent, mostly mild modifides, so they can crank out the torque without loosing RPM. TM EG1000's seem to be more mild, as they tend to loose ROF more with heavier springs, at least in comparison to my CA motor.

My reccomended cells are Intellect 3600-4200 Mah NiMH or GP 3300's(cheaper, but still good). www.towerhobbies.com is a great place for that kinda stuff, its cheap, and has a pretty large selection.

[Killbucket]

Make that 165000uf, 25volt nichicons.

All math aside, when the spring is compressing, amp draw goes up. when it releases, amps decrease. The caps are to prevent "voltage sag" during wind-up. If the gun pulls about 15-20 amps, and the batteries are good for 35, theoretically there should be no benefit to having the caps. In use however, the caps keep ROF steady much longer. Back-to-back testing with a toggle switch confirms this. Single fire is a nice crisp crack each time. I would assume NiMh batts would be happier set up this way compared to NiCds.

Now has anybody out there experimented with a "dual-voltage" setup to have more than one auto fire rate? Hmmm... It would be nice to kick in 12v like a nitro button and have 1000RPM on tap in a "stock" gun!

This is the best battery deal I have ever seen: it's what is in my Marui...$24.99 (plus shipping) for a 3500Mah 9.6v NiMh.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=539

[Killbucket]

They just got this in.
Made to hold standard rc packs (even hump packs!), it will hold up to 12 sub-c cells. That's 14.4 volts! I just lost my only reason to not own a G36. They say it will fit both long and short versions.
I know what you mean by ROF. Once you make a gun go faster, there isn't any going back...I haven't done any upgrades yet, but chances are I'll never go to a heavier spring (ok, maybe one step up) because I'm just plinking in my back yard. But the prospect of insane ROF will get this gun opened one day soon. I'm thinking uber-strong gears and motor, but still have some research to do here first.
Any other newbs reading would be well advised to skip Nickel-Cadmium Batteries. They are fast disappearing from shelves in favor of NiMh's...The NiCd's left must be getting to the end of shelf life expectancy. Considering the slim margin in cost, buy the NiMh's, they are much noticably stronger.

[HunTel2]

Can a 9.6v battery be used in a Classic Army Armalite M15 A4 Carbine AEG?

[Thatfatmacdude]

Yes, all 9.6 volt batterys can be used in Classic Army M15's.

[Audio Murphy]

What about the Li-Poly batteries? This link says they are the best airsoft batteries out there and I tend to believe them. I will now leave this to the experts on this thread...

https://www.evike.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Product_Code=Battery_Redalert_set&Category_Code=Battery_lipoly

[Killbucket]

Especially since most (even modified) airguns will never NEED that kind of amperage. those would be nice in an ultra custom pistol (see photo below)where space is an issue. I'm kind of worried about safety and these cells. Definitely remove them from the gun to recharge (note: ALL LiPolys need a 2-hour charge cycle, regardless of capacity).

Compared to this deal:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=896

I'd rather have four batteries and two smart chargers for the same money (incidentally, I have bought these items. My three RC "quick chargers" are now obsolete. -Except for waking up really dead batts that smart chargers cannot "see"). Nice to never worry about overcharging again.


LiPoly's? Not ready for prime time, if you ask me. Nimh's are now reasonably priced, have fantastic capacity, can be recharged without being "dead", and don't carry the liability of high power density. Just the way LiPoly's are packaged tells me they are still a compromise in design.

[Killbucket]

same specs, half price:

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=961

I am ordering one of these batteries asap.

And another pic of my OA93 copy:

[Audio Murphy]

The main reason I was wondering about Li-poly is it seems you can get big battery output in a small battery form. I am getting a g36c and thought I could put one of these baby's in there and run all day with a real high rof.

[Killbucket]

Good call. That is a good reason to use a LiPoly. Just be sure not to overwork it. I have this horrible vision of smoke coming from my $300 plus creation....
Let us know how this works out.

[Audio Murphy]

Killbucket, would that last battery you linked to fit in a g36c? Or is that just the battery parts and it needs to be put together in such a way to fit. I originally posted in this thread to see what everyone's opinions were or li-poly, and if it would fry my gun or not. I don't know much about batteries in relation to airsoft and motors and gearboxes.

[Killbucket]

Dimensions: 23mm x 36mm x 83mm

.90 by 1.41 x 3.26 inches.

Mock it up in cardboard or paper and see if it fits. I'm intrigued. I haven't conferred with anybody who has one in a gun yet. Be sure to go to wikipedia.org to get the real lowdown on the technology. I will.

I took one look at an AirSoft-spec battery and said no way am I gonna be happy with bitty batts like that. Didn't even buy one with the first gun. I went home and designed the grenade-launcher housing seen earlier in the post. It holds more battery than you could ever need for AirSoft use.
I've come up with an even lower-tech solution, and I'm sure it's not a new idea: Put the battery on the tactical strap and cable it to the gun. The battery isn't inside my precious baby. Anderson PowerPole connectors allow high current draw, and can be yanked if things get ugly. I know, it "ruins" the realism a bit, but if you ask my wife, very little of this has to do with "Reality" (EXACTLY. that's the whole point! Wait til ya'all see what's going into my minigun project...). I'm planning a Sten gun Project. Where the heck da battery gonna fit in THAT?

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms4/uk-sten.jpg

But with big NiCd batts hooked to an airgun, you'll never run them down in a day (this is good). Then you have the choice of run them on the discharger (waste of good electrons), or hope it doesn't go dead in the middle of tomorrow's use (you knew I was going to say "this is bad").

The main reason I took so long to adopt Nimh's is I'm cheap. NiCd's were getting cheaper and cheaper. But then again, I have to run them down all the way before charging.
Great for my RC cars. I always know that they're good and dead after use.
Nickle-Metal Hydride batteries are IDEAL for AirSoft for this one reason alone if for no other. You can keep it topped off like a gastank. And the HIGH amp output is darn near steady until it's empty. That's what you want in an AEG. I consider my battery to be part of the gun's "magazine". Start out topped off, and know that your last shot will be the one you decided it to be.

From what I'm reading about LiPoly's, leaving them dead is a big no-no. I don't know if I have the discipline to keep them happy as long as they should last. The price coming down is helping my opinion a lot, however. Say thank you to the helicopter nuts (...er ..."enthusiasts". I suppose they don't like it any more than we do).

My advice is get the battery and charger from all-battery ( I've gotten many orders from them and am very happy) and save the dollars. Nice web page for the $95 battery, tho. maybe that's what they need the extra money for.

[Lone Panther]

Hey thanks for the article. i was needing a new batery and i wanted some advice since i killed my last one. how important is it to discharge a batery on a scale of 1-10? thanks.

[carsismeZ06]

So NiCD can overcharge and run flat, but the NiMH quits charging itself when it's full so that is doesn't run flat?

[PyroPenguin]

I think the G36c uses a smaller type 4/5c cells or AA sized. You could use the smaller AA sized packs and use like 10 cells for 15 v of power

2 questions...because I have a G36c (TM) as well...


Is the main difference between the Sub-C and AA batteries the length of time they will discharge...assuming that they have the same voltage and mAH rating?
Wouldn't the higher voltage from 10 AA lead to problems with the gears?

[Killbucket]

Yes. The physically larger the cell is, the more peak wattage it will have.
BUT- Smaller cells, plus a heavier load, equals the same watts available to the motor.

Using smaller cells, sometimes the extras are just there to make up for the loss when a strong motor is installed. The actual motor SPEED may not increase at all.

In this case, the extra cells are suggested to increase running speed (=rate of firing).

Anytime you end up with the motor actually running faster, you run the risk of gears getting into position, before the piston can return. Result: stripped teeth.
Cure: stronger spring.