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Cowfur
09-26-2004, 04:29 PM
Hey guys, I just went to the Fran Bar game. It was my first actual event that I've been to. For anyone who went, did you like it? I loved it, all but the Poker match, there seemed to be a lot of cheating. Post replies please, I'm interested to hear stories from other people who went. :)

Titleist
09-26-2004, 04:33 PM
Hey hey, guess what, there's a past events forum for you to post your feelings on the game. Also, just a little FYI, if you think there was cheating at the game, maybe you should have brought it up AT THE GAME, rather than after the fact. Go figure.

Mods, can we move this and or delete it?

Grease Man
09-26-2004, 05:23 PM
i agree with you titleist,

people were being accused of cheating left and right but only one thing that I noticed was brought up at the game. So if your going to sit there and accuse people of cheating at least be responsible and bring it up when you have the problem. but this should be in the past event forum.

jackneedsagun83
09-26-2004, 08:27 PM
seeing as it is his first big event, he obviously didn't have very much need for the post game forum before. Of course he should know about it, and use it, and yes this thread probably should be moved there, but we can cut him a little slack. This post was not a response to any other post that I felt was being too harsh on him. Actually you guys did a pretty good job of letting him know without blowing up in his faces about it. I'm just rambling on and on. ..............................and on.:p

Jack. With a vengeance.

Titleist
09-26-2004, 09:04 PM
well I don't think being harsh with anyone is the best solution, but if he had scrolled down just half of the screen he would have seen the forum for past events. oh well.

But like we already stated, he's obviously a new guy, e.g newbie. But expressing your feelings about cheating afterwards when it's just their word against the accused or implied cheaters just spawns a bad attitude among the players who were at the game. I think it's fairly cheap to complain afterwards when you could have stepped up and worked through the problem at the game.

again, oh well.

Prose
09-26-2004, 09:33 PM
Well not all BB's that appear to hit the target do, and not all BB's that hit the player can be felt. I did not witness excessive cheating so I did not bring anything up to Wallace. He monitored all the games and was available to address any issues and did address a few.

There were few teams and a lot of orphans in the events. Heck there were a lot of guys out there with GBB's only, my gosh get an AEG! There was a lot of camping even by the teams that were suppose to move VIP's or attack smaller numbers of players to accomplish an objective. It was a green group.

I will repeat what I said in my other post, it was a great day and a lot of good old Fran Bar airsoft fun was had. I will be back to the next event! Everyone went through a lot of BB's. There was a lot of respawn events and we played a lot of scenario's with minimal down time.

If you want MILSIM go to an event with a registration fee of $100. This was what it was suppose to be. The more experienced the players the more you can do.

jackneedsagun83
09-26-2004, 09:44 PM
I agree completely with the both of you on your points, cheating should be adressed at the game, not afterwards, because I personally would not want players coming away from that game feeling that they got away with something and them coming back to try it again. Good analogy Prose, not all circumstances can be deemed "cheating", but if there was such an excessive amount, not just 1 or 2 instances, then it needs to be adressed.

Jack.

Wallace
09-26-2004, 10:42 PM
I'd like to say something about cheating.

During the speed-ball game I was watching the action on top of one of those pile of skids, and one incident involving two players (lets call them Tom and Jerry) caught my attention.

The story begins with Tom engaging another emeny while Jerry noticed his position from both his firing and his cussing. So Jerry snuck up behind him and use the bush of tall grass as cover, and open fire at Tom. Tom heard the shot (BBs ricohceted and hitting everything around him) so he hit the ground, moved a little for better cover, turn around and started shooting at Jerry's general direction. At that point they were exchanging fire in short bursts while each of them move left or right to get a better shot, with the only thing between them being a patch of seemlingly easy-to-penetrate tall grass. Tom had just found his new cussing target so he is now yelling at Jerry "you cheater I can't believe I didn't hit you" and "F this F that" while Jerry presistently sending BBs his way without making much comments.

Now for argument's sake I was only maybe 10 feet from Tom and 20 feet from Jerry (the skid pile was very close to Tom's baracade) and quite honestly I did not see any clear-cut impact on BBs hitting Tom (i.e. BBs bounce off him) nor did I heard sounds of BBs impacting his BDU. So since he never called himself out I assume none of the BBs actually hit him. After maybe 10-12 short-bursts were exchanged, Jerry's teammate join in the fight, however Jerry got annoyed and decided to move around the tall grass to get a clear shot at Tom. Tom saw his move, open fire, Jerry called out. Shortly after, Jerry's teammate also called out.

Tom was all happy winning a major match until I yank him to the side and gave him a lecture.

Anyhow, the moral of the story is, although neither Tom and Jerry got shot because the seemingly easy-to-penetrate bush of tall grass must have deflected or absorbed most of the BBs, Jerry gave his enemy the benefit of the doubt and simply decided to just move closer and get a cleaner shot, while Tom took a completely different approach and immediately assumed Jerry was cheating. Not only does Tom's cussing made me very uncomfortable, I can assure you that Jerry did NOT appreciate being called a cheater after he'd send hundreds of BBs toward Tom and still be cool about it.

The fact is, Jerry open fire at Tom first and Tom should've realize that "if none of those BBs ever hit me, maybe none of my BBs could ever reach him" - immediately assume someone else cheats is the worst thing you can do to Airsoft. Cheating alone does not make Airsoft sucks, but unjusted accusitions of cheating really ruin the sport for me. I have heard hundreds of complains about cheating, and granted some of them are legit but I'd say 80% of the people whine without solid proof. And quite frankly as organizer I HATE to have to deal with these things. I'd rather spend the time running more games so people can have more fun.

If you are one of those cheaters, take note - people will know you cheat. But if you just think others cheat, go up and ask him/her about it. Talk it over after the match and understand the situation. The only way to deal with cheating is to kindly make the subject known that you "suspect" you've hit him, NOT screaming at the field like "suc ker call your shots" or complain about it on the forum. Sometimes people truly not felt their hits and 95% of the time you are NOT as good of a shot as you think. If every complain of cheating is legit, then cheating would not be a problem because the incidents would be so few and far between.

So, if you think someone cheats, be a man and walk up to him and ask. You may find out that he really didn't got shot, and better yet if he just didn't felt it maybe he will pay more attention later on. If someone deliberatly cheats, by talking to him you can send a clear signal that "people knows". The signal will be even stronger when many other players also approach him for the same reason. I'd also hope that, by then, he will realize people will stop inviting him (and most likely his whole team) for private games, which arguablely are much more enjoyable then public events.



Ez.Wallace

Wallace
09-26-2004, 11:05 PM
Another couple experiences I'd like to share (and I will shut up right after).

In the early days of Airsoft Ohio (Spring of 2001), during a skirmish I turned my head and saw a BB flying straight towards me. Before I can say "Oh... s**t" I saw the BB literally hit a twig right in front of my eyes and bouced off. I sat there for a few seconds and called myself out, reason being:

1. In real life I would've been dead, that little tree branch would not have saved my life.

2. That sniper got me fair and square. He had a perfect position (my right side was wide open), got a beat on me, and I didn't even know he was there until the BB almost hit me. I gotta give him that.

3. If I didn't call out he would probably think I was cheating... from his position it would most likely looks like the BB hit my goggle and bounced off. Plus I did flinch from the shock. Anyway I think he got me fair and square, and its only a game so no big deal.

Secondly, if you ever actually had a chance to play with me (I rarely had time to even pick up a gun nowadays) you will know how much s**t I carry into the field... (my vest alone weights about 20 pounds). So I always told people that if you shot me and I didn't call out, let me know - because depends on where the BB hits (e.g. mag pouch) I would've never know. Later that day I was running from one cover to the next and Titleist sniped by back from maybe 100ft away. I was running my arse off and honestly have no idea I got nailed, so I got to the next cover and hunker down. Then Titleist said "Hey Wallace I think I hit you" and I stick my head out and goes "really?" and then another guy said "yeah I saw a puff of dust on your back from the impact". So I went "sorry my bad" and walked off the field. If Titlist had screamed with bad languages and said "you cheater call your hit" I probably would still walk off the field but definitely be pretty pissed, thinking its a honest mistake and I don't deserve to be called a cheater.

So, next time before you swear you've got someone, think about these incidents and just get closer and take another shot. You can help keep airsoft fun and enjoyable by simply that.



Ez.Wallace

Oscar
09-27-2004, 01:14 AM
Good posts Wallace. :)

This thread sounds similar to the one I made after my first time at Fran Bar. :eek: But I got a bigger arse chewing.

Having a few ops under my belt, I've learned that things aren't cut and dry a lot of times in airsoft. There are times where you swear the person should call out because in your mind there's no way they could have survived the onslaught of BB's. In the end it's up to the honor system and/or the other person to be honest. If that doesn't happen then just keep spraying them until it's obvious to even them. Yes, it can be frustrating, but it's airsoft and you have to accept it. Consider it a challenge to better yourself. At the end of the day what really matters is you had a good time. I'm all for calling a cheater a cheater when it's obvious though.

J Teezy
09-27-2004, 02:01 AM
you will always have cheaters in everything. Some people will do anything to stay in the game. I witnessed my first account at this at OPNW when grunt and i came up on two guys. They were pretty close to us. Grunt put on in a guys chest with his GSpec and i to put about 3-4 in his chest from a full auto burst. We know we hit him because grunt saw his bb hit the guy through his scope. I saw my bb's bounce off his chest. I also shot a 165 BB round at the two of them. Well, they never called out, and ended up getting both of us. We called our hits, and started walking back to camp. We ran into John Lu and Wallace on the way back and told them what had happened (we were expecting anything to be done for the matter but just wanted to let them know). All in all it just boils down to who has the better character. To me, winning is not everything, i just want to have fun.

necronomicon
09-27-2004, 03:09 AM
Exactly, its not about who wins or who loses, its about the kill count :cool:

I really do not see the point in calling someone a cheater and taking the game down to that level. I really do not care if the other person does not call their hits. What I do, is just shoot until they do. Simple as that.

Now on the flip side, if I were to attend a game or event and saw a person from my team cheating, I would be very embarassed. I would probobly move to have them removed from the team if necessary. If the leaders of teams can be stricter and more honorable with their players and emphasize the fact of using the honor system, then the number of real cheaters might drop.

Other than that, even if I see through the scope of my SVD that one of my shots deflected off of a person's chest and they did not call out, I would shoot until they did and keep that person in my memory. When another person encounters the exact same thing with that person, then by all means I will go to the game organizer and see what can be done about it. When one person calls another player a cheater, that may be a bit pre-emptive. When half a dozen witness somebody cheating however, something needs to be done because by that point, its obvious what is going on.

I say don't complain and don't call somebody a cheater. Feel lucky in the fact that you are even getting to play. I wish I could have, but brochitis pwned me.

Calling somebody a cheater in airsoft is like getting killed in Counter-Strike, only to spam "HAXHAXHAX!!!11one" over global chat.

Sixes
09-27-2004, 08:37 AM
Besides that on poker game, i had an excellent time! im not trying to gripe about cheating, but i just didnt really enjoy it. I must appologize for one member of our team though, Janam (aka) nipple (the one with the FAMAS F1), for he was acting way out of line saturday. we all had 2 hours of sleep the night before, so he was a little cranky and started crying about being "sick." its not really a big deal, but if it annoyed anyone there, i appologize.

Cowfur
09-27-2004, 08:38 AM
I don't mean to be rude but I asked you guys what you thought about the game, I didn't ask for criticism. :(

NOMAD_666
09-27-2004, 01:30 PM
You may have just been wondering what others thought of the game, but you invited their criticism in when you started to point your finger at others for cheating. I had heard of people cheating and had believed it, but now I am not so sure, I didn't witness anything that verged on being against the rules. It was a good game Wallace and don't let this whole cheating thing get you down, I'm sure no one cheated on purpose.

Cowfur
09-27-2004, 02:05 PM
There really wasn't any cheating the whole day, it was just an incident at the poker match where a guy I witnessed get hit several times did not come out and admit he was hit. He may not have felt it, and nobody really pointed out to him he was being hit. So I apologize on my behalf for saying "cheating", ANYWAY, I HAD A GREAT TIME thanks for puting it all together Wallace. I ended up spending 80 bucks, but hell it was worth every penny to me. :D

Nosebuckle
09-27-2004, 02:19 PM
I had a really fun time, as always, at Fran Bar. Thank you Wallace for donating your time and efforts to keep the games running quickly and coherently. Usually there is much more downtime between games at other events, but the games kept coming. I don't think the cheating was the biggest problem; I really didn't personally witness too much. But I did feel that it was too difficult to tell who was on what team and discriminating who was "out" and who was still "alive". I bring this up because this is what personally befuddled me. I do know once I did shoot at folks that were my own teammates, because they looked exactly like enemies, in terms of uniforms. It's very difficult to put faces on your team, especcially when you have never played with them before. Another Issue is discerning who has been eliminated. I know Wallace had some red death rags but hardly anyone used them or didn't have one. That, or there was no signal that they had been eliminated. This got really bad during the poker game, where I was shooting at people sitting behind trees, no rag on head and no hands/gun in the air. I then heard them yelling they were out but this is not a very effective way in light of combat and cheating issues. If you're sitting behind a tree with no clear visible sign your out (red rag or hands in air) I or anyone else is not going to assume your out. I apoligize to anyone who was accidentally shot dispite being eliminated. I was shot at myself as I was walking back to respawn, so I know it's not fun. I know these are not really issues at national events where vets are present, but for those new to AO skirmishes, this is how things need to be done to prevent issues. But this is NOT to put a negative spin on the day. Most negative scenes were isolated and didn't affect the overall enjoyment. Great day and hope everyone comes out again!

Sixes
09-27-2004, 02:25 PM
yes, saturday was a definate success. now that i think of it, i only heard 1 person going off about someone cheating during the poker game (every1 else just kinda joined in after they heard his story). im not quite sure who wallace was reffering to, (nor am i trying to pry) but this certain individual was also cussing up a storm. put 2 and 2 together, possibly equal someone sorry about not being able to hit someone?

Sixes
09-27-2004, 02:31 PM
that reminds me nosebuckle, i had a heck of a time determining who was on my team also. i usually ended up memorizing what gun they had. i remember many times yelling out "hey benelli, any visual?" lol. next time i get some money up, im gonna go to a craft shop and buy some blue fabric, some green fabric, and some red fabric. cut the blue and the green into the size of an armband for teams, and cut the red into a square for after you're hit and going to respawn.

EDIT: oops, sorry for double posting :( :( :(

Coltanium
09-27-2004, 02:59 PM
Wallace...that was some verry good posts. I am "Tom" and I will admit even thinking what I was thinking at the time, I was much more angry than I should have been had they been cheating. But as far as the thing you witnessed about me and jerry and the seemingly thin brish between us....I was not yelling at the other person on the other side of the brush. I still have no problem with him, but there was a cupple of guys in the thicker brish right beside him they you probably could not see but when I ducked down I could see a perfectly clear shot path through it and it was about 1 or 2 feet in diameter so I could easily shoot through it and hit the man on the other side (witch filled the diameter of the hole entirely) and I did and I watched seversl (at least 10) bb's bounce off of him and thats who I was yelling at. But even then I admit I over reacted and shouldnt have yelled as I did and after you and I talked I tried to keep to myself. Proof: I had major problems at the poker game and I was rather sure I was right considering everyone else around me was haveing the exact same problem with the exact same guy. I still satyed quiet, and you were right beside all of us so I believe you would know. Anyway I just wanted to clear up that bit about me and "jerry". And a nother reason I believe it wasnt just me is i have been to all the other fran bar games in the last year and have had little to no problems (not significant enough to complain or even remember)

to clear anything up I agree with you Wallace and thanks for youre input.
and I am sorry for saying all of that because after all it is just a game and me yelling probably only made it worse.

hope thats everything i wanted to say...


-colton

peepingthomas
09-27-2004, 03:39 PM
Don't feel too bad Colton. I'm not sure who you were but I expect you were having problems with the same guy I was during the poker game as several of us were having them. I got pretty wound up over it too, and while I shouldn't have been so ticked about it I know what I saw. So it wasn't just you, and it wasn't just a matter of perception.

I know I missed most of the time, and I know he may well not have felt some of the shots as he was kind of gear heavy. Still after having seen them bounce off more than a few times, yeah I know I hit him, and no he didn't call it. Not surprising, just annoying.

Note that He was the exception and not the rule. Most everyone else played honorably and were really out there to have a good time which was cool.

Apart from the last game I had a really good time, especially the zombie respawn game. That one was fast paced and we really got some good teamwork going on the side of the field I was on. Not easy to do with what are mostly strangers, so very cool.

Titleist
09-27-2004, 04:23 PM
Concerning wallace's story and necro's point, I think they're both good things to point out. I clearly remember that incident at fran bar with wallace. And it's a good example of not letting tempers flare up during a battle.

I know personally that a lot of the times there's a huge gap between what I'm thinking is going on as compared to what REALLY is going on. And as already stated, there's this huge feeling of, "i just emptied a magazine into that bush, he's gotta be dead". I know that when I shot wallace I clearly saw my bb impact his vest, but wallace didn't feel it, was he cheating? Not at all. So I just calmly said I think I killed him, and wallace knew I was probably right, so he just called himself out. That's cool, because where we see arguments is with people who can't admit they might be wrong, or are so self-centered and think they HAD to have killed the guy, that they start a screaming match. I've been on the receiving end of someone saying he thought I was cheating, was I? No, i hope not at least, but when someone calls you a cheater no matter if you did it or not you end up feeling horrible because no one likes getting accused of something. That's why just leaving the field and being a man about it, and then calmly talking to the person afterwards can yield a much better result. After the incident in which someone thought I was cheating, I just talked with the guy(s) and we ended up becoming better friends on the field because we both admited that we weren't in the best of positions to confirm that any side was wrong or right. But just talking things out can be such a helpful thing to do that why it's not done more during games I will never understand.

As for necro's point, as one of AO's long time snipers, I can agree with this. When you're huddled down and looking through a high powered scope you see some amazing things. It's not a big margin for human error when you shoot them from 150feet away and see them flinch from the hit, and keep firing. But at the same time you're getting the worst tunnel vision just staring down a scope, you're flattening the world down to a few degrees of view, so at the same time while you're looking through the scope you don't always get a full sense of if what you think happened really happened at all. Basically what I'm saying is that no scope will tell you exactly what happened, and it all boils down to using your best judgement but also understanding that you might not always be right. I think the best tip is to keep your wits about you and just understand that it's a game, and if you want someone else to treat you with honor and respect, then put out those same virtues yourself.

I've been in situations before where Michel emptied half of his SAW at me, and didn't even come close, but from his point of view he could have thought I wasn't calling out. So I find the best result is just be honest, and if you think you might have hit someone but can't be sure, move around and hit them again, only way to be sure, lol.

Coltanium
09-27-2004, 05:30 PM
.

sirSolarius
09-27-2004, 08:11 PM
Great posts Wallace. You did a wonderful job managing the events and dealing with everyone's complaints/concerns/questions!

Violator
09-29-2004, 12:15 AM
I didn't go to the event, but from what it sounds like, Wallace runs a good show. I'm hoping to get out to one of his games. As for the cheating, yes there will always be cheaters. I've found most airsoft players to be pretty honest about things. If I shoot someone and they don't call the hits, I just keep shooting until they finally call it out :D

jackneedsagun83
09-29-2004, 04:21 PM
That is one solution, but you have to consider, that if he gets upset about being caught cheating, he may switch right over to yelling at and blaming the shooter for shooting him an unnecessary amount of times.

Sometimes, on a boring sunday afternoon, some of my non-airsofting buddies will decide that they want to play a round. So we break out the springers and play. One one particular round I was sitting out, 2 of my friends were playing head to head. I know for a fact, because I saw, that BOTH of them cheated. :rolleyes: I dont play airsoft with those two anymore. No fun.

Jack.

necronomicon
09-29-2004, 05:54 PM
You also have to consider the fact the other person might have not felt the shot. I took several shots from a 385 FPS gun in my tactical vest (all struck my Desert Eagle). I kept firing, not realizing I had even been hit until my friend said "I saw a couple rounds bounce off your chest". He thought I was cheating myself, until I pulled out the Desert Eagle that covered like a whole 1/4 of my chest.

Things are never what they seem in airsoft. You can be hit by something relatively powerful, yet not feel it. Anyone who had ever been hit in a mag pouch on their vest knows this well. However, when the other person very clearly feels the shot and flinches, yet they do not call out, its very obvious that they are being dishonest.

J Teezy
09-29-2004, 07:36 PM
agreed. At OPNW i got shot several times. One time i got shot in the back of my head (i had a shemagh on) so i felt that one. Another time i took a ricochet off a tree to the neck. I felt that one too. Other times i was hit in my vest. Didn't feel them, but i thought a i saw them bounce off me or sounded like they hit me so i called out.

Like i said before, you will always have those who will cheat. It was just like when i use to play paintball back in the day and people wiped hits. But like its been said, adrenaline sometimes take over and you dont feel the hit or hear the hit you take. No game is fun when people cheat but there's not much you can do it about it.

MCinimicus
10-07-2004, 07:55 PM
Coltium, love the Princess Monoke avatar :D Not that anyone wants to hear it, but here's my solution to not cheating but not feeling shots...(drumroll) the m120. as soon as i get the cash, i'm sending my g36 off to airsoftgi.com and having my gearbox revamped with high performance systema internals (including the silent piston head :p) all topped off with an m120 spring. I know I could go higher but that's where I'm gonna be the most comfortable at. I'm all about CQB and engaging targets up close and personal and I feel 375-400fps will eliminate my marks not knowing they're hit (providing that i'm good enough to hit them). Hopefully now I can hold my tongue and just give 'em a bigger dosage.

One of the best words of advice I received about cheating was a few weeks ago at my place (CQB) during a training op for Irene (back when I was going). I shot a friend that was hiding behind a shrub from probably 125 feet. I knew a single shot wouldn't cut it. I held down the trigger and emptied about 2/3 of my hi-cap on him, damn well knowing he was hit. Instead of yelling and cursing (sorry to be an oxymoron) I just calmly said to a defending ally "Man this is pissin me off. He's cheating and I know it. He's been cheating for 5 years now all the way back from the springer days. However I'm gonna mind my own hits and not ruin the game." Ghost responded "just give him more and/or let him get closer." That I did and he called out when I lit him up from 20 feet instead. Also he even admitted to cheating after the game (I have no clue what was going through his head). Point is, if everyone minds their own hits and just gives the cheater or guy that can't feel his hits plenty more hits or wait til they get closer, most problems will be solved. Thank you.

J Teezy
10-07-2004, 11:03 PM
if you like CQB remember that any game that goes by AO rules your gun will be too hot for full auto with no MED. Really if you can just save up for another gun. I run my SPC with around 400 fps and then my g36c at 340 for CQB games.

MCinimicus
10-08-2004, 08:38 PM
Thanks for the advice. Keep in mind that I'm an AKSY member (airsoft kentucky) and our rules go a bit different however I'll probably pick up another spring for around 340fps or so for the few times I play with you guys at AO. Most of the time I'm just playing on my own property with other ASKY and nonASKY guys that don't mind playing with higher limits. It adds a bit more to the game as I see it. That'd be great if I had the money for a seperate gun but money's a bit tight. One more thing to remember is I am a very respectable player with the safety of others on my mind. When I get close enough I'm know I'm gonna do some damage, I let them opt to surrender (regardless of the range the ASKY rules say) and I expect the same from the other players. The close-knit group I play with on the most regular basis looks out for each other. I can't count the times I ran around a corner and pointed my gun at someone whom I caught blindside or the same has happened to me. Each and every time a surrender has been called, it has been honored and appreciated. Believe it or not, since the coming of higher powered weapons (higher than springers that is) the game has been safer around here.