False Surrender

[DeadlyAssassin05]

I read in a book about WW2 and in it. it talked of a German WW2 strategy that involved shooting until you ran out of ammo and then surrendering, when the OPFOR guys wa up to search you you pull out a prereadied pistol from inside your shirt and let the opfor guys have it at point blank. Would this strategy work for airsoft?

[m16a2]

http://www.airsoftohio.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3924

that will answer the questions about the concealed weapon. as for the surrendering, it would work, but i think it would be highly discouraged, IMO.

[Chaos008]

http://www.airsoftohio.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3924

Similar thread, but different circumstances.

If you surrendered to me, by the time you reached for your weapon, you'd have a nice warm burst, center mass. False surrender is not really acceptable anywhere from what I've read. Depends on the surrender rules, some play surrendering counts as a hit, so you are out anyhow. We play it out, if you surrender, you are searched and detained and put under armed guard.... (see also trigger happy enemies that want to shoot you for fun)

I guess it depends who you are playin with, and how thorough they are.

Edit: A little slow, but yeah, same viewpoint basically. Point blank... firefight... one vs. a lot... your funeral.

[Glaeken]

Ya know, I don't know why there is discussion about :

Surrender
Safety Kill
Freeze
etc.


At games you will find folks that either do or do not take surrenders, freezes or safety kills. It's that simple.

The only time you can really use the above is if you have ABSOLUTE surprise on your adversary.
If the opposition person that you shout "surrender" to does not respond in "ok, I'm dead" or "ok, you got me" you have ample time to put 1-2 rds in their legs or lower body.
You can't use the above phrases if you are, for instance, at a corner of a building/structure and are shouting at the person on the other side. What's the point? You can't see them, nor do you have tactical surprise. They may even know that you are there and are waiting for YOU!

My advise is to use it ONLY when you have ABSOLUTE surprise. If you don't have the ability to shoot the player you intend to surrender you can't very well surrender them.

As far as surrender and being "taken into custody" and you hide a weapon on you then it becomes a different story.
If the game allows such actions and permits the 'detainee' to carry hidden weapons, be aware of the consequences of that situation. If you 'detain' someone and don't search them...you let your guard down and you get popped - what can I say? You've been had. Get over it.
Both sides need to be clear on "search" criteria and whether a 'searched' player can act as though they weren't 'searched' thoroughly.

If the game doesn't allow such actions it's a moot point.

Just to clarify.
In game, I personally won't be 'detained'. You'll have to shoot me first.
As far as "surrender, freeze, etc" , if you have the drop on me I'll take the 'freeze' and let you know you did a good job. Just be aware not everyone plays this way.

P.S. As far as the safety issues concerning 'safety kills' and the like, I fully support the player who errs in favor of safety. If you are close and you can just as easily shout "surrender" (again, absolute surprise) I say by all means do it! Why intentionally inflict close-range/point-blank shots on someone. Play with dignity.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by DeadlyAssassin05
I read in a book about WW2 and in it. it talked of a German WW2 strategy that involved shooting until you ran out of ammo and then surrendering, when the OPFOR guys wa up to search you you pull out a prereadied pistol from inside your shirt and let the opfor guys have it at point blank. Would this strategy work for airsoft?

I think that's a warcrime.....

[^cRYpTic^]

If anyone ever faked surrender me, I would nail em with the but of my rifle and then light em up. That is just total crap.

[necronomicon]

Originally posted by Loki
I think that's a warcrime.....

The Germans in WWII didn't really care for the Geneva convention anyways :P

I think Glaeken nailed it on the head with how I believe this should be carried out. Besides, surrendering someone puts the burden on you to take them to camp, lead them around...whatever. I would just rather pop someone and earn a kill than have to babysit a hinderance.

If you dont search someone and you get nailed, thats your fault. If the majority of players do not want this to happen in the game they are playing, they need to set strict rules on this subject and make sure everyone knows them.

Previously mentioned in another post was the idea of frisking. I have no qualms about being patted down, because it is part of the game. If someone is that bent on not being touched or giving up their gear, then why did you surrender in the first place?

You can count on me stuffing a G26C somewhere and the minute my captors turn their back, another downed squad.

[Soultek]

Originally posted by necronomicon

Previously mentioned in another post was the idea of frisking. I have no qualms about being patted down, because it is part of the game. If someone is that bent on not being touched or giving up their gear, then why did you surrender in the first place?

You can count on me stuffing a G26C somewhere and the minute my captors turn their back, another downed squad.

But in that you mention the problem, just being patted down may be fine, but if people start getting really good about hiding weapons, where do you call an end to searching? i mean are you gonna take 20 mins to search someone instead of getting back into the skirmish? and as mentioned in the other similar post what happens if you have males and females playing?

[jimmypop]

at most ao games when you surrender you are out so you would just be cheating if you did that.

[necronomicon]

When people are playing with searches in their game, it should be taken to just pat someone down. It is up to the person searching, and their competence to find such weapons.

Gender matters not. Whether you are male or female, and you surrender, expect to be searched. If someone is that much against it, they could just call themselves out, or take the bullet.

Simply put, just pat someone down, or set up how far you can go before you start playing. It is really up to the players. If you dont want to be searched or "groped", then dont surrender. I wouldnt even waste my time taking hostages. Personally, when I'm playing, I am not there to babysit a POW, I am there to unleash 6mm hell on the other team.

[^cRYpTic^]

If you have more than one person taking a hostage; one person should cover the hostage while the other one searches them. This way, if the hostage trys to pull a gun on the frisker, the guy covering will light him up. The only problem I could see is how much gear you take from the hostage. I suppose you would probably take their tactical vest and guns, but then what do you do with the stuff? Are you allowed to use their weapons, cause I sure dont like the idea of someone running around with my gun shooting all my ammo while I sit their in handcuffs. Plus, what if someone breaks your gun?? We all know airsoft guns tend to break quite easily if you are careless...

[DeltaSniper]

After a poor experience at combat missions one at the hands of a certain team, I dont surrender ANYONE. I "knife kill" those who i have complete surpirse on, or i drop them if they are at a distance. Plain and simple. I run a stock gun, and have for some time. When I do upgrade it, I dont plan on going more than 350. I dont trust surrendering foes, and taking prisoners can have no positive effect. It slows my team down, and you might pull something.

These past few threads where everyone has talked about concealed weapons and such has only reinforced that belief of mine, so if youre one of those guys, dont complain when I light you up. I know we like mil sim, and realism. BUT... you need to think about what a real prisoner would get in real life. you would be thrown to the ground, possibly kicked in the junk (it elicits a response to tell if youre dead or alive, and if youre alive, it surely hurts enough to kind of tone you down.) YOur searcher would likely cut your gear CUT off, not remove it, possibly stripp you, search, possibly kick you around, and more than likely bound. You would then be expedited to the rear area, to an MP prisoner collection point.

We simply dont have most of those concepts in airsoft. Ball kicking= no good. I know youd not like me to cut your harnesses and vests off. Im also sure youd prefer if I didnt strip you. I know I would prefer to not strip you. My team needs to move out, and i for one cannot afford to move you with me, and i have no MPs to come get you. Therefor you "die" in some way. Yes i would be a war criminal in real life, but this aint iraq, and you are not a guerilla.

trust me guys, im not REALLY a ****, but i dont play around.:D

[Nosebuckle]

I would personally be highly enraged with anyone who pulls this on me or anyone on our team. I also think this violates an offiical AO surrender rule; either that or it violates some common ethics rule. I wouldn't even try this myself. The idea isn't one we should try. No one really likes cheap suprises here anyway.

[sniper dude]

Also aren't there ingagment limits? I know that if any one shot me at point blank after they surrendered they would have my nice 450 fps m24 up there ***:D

[Tripod]

When someoen surrenders I just consider them dead, I dont walk up to them or anything. That's how our rules are and I like it.

[RogueShooter]

The way we play, you only shout freeze or whatever when you are in a position to do so, just as if you are unarmed and there are thirty men surrounding you with automatic weopons, you would probably not command them to surrender, unless you plan on sneaking away as they laugh at you, which isnt likely, cuz it realy isnt that funny. anyway, we sometimes play games where you get points for kills, and since captureing someone and lugging them around is more difficult, it is worth more points(two kills, and we play in small numbers, so thats a lot. and when you die you lose points, so it makes your life valuable to you, and you wont just run, or shoot yourself to prevent them from getting kills.) say you get the guy, make him march around until you take him to "the incinerator" so then you can go back and fight. as for hidden weopons and false surrendering, you would first do a quick visual search, and maybe remove a hat if hes wearing one, or pat the outside of his legs, grope each other excessively, ect. he may still be armed, but if you keep your eye on him, and youve done that basic search, it is very unlikely that he ill be able to quickly draw a concealed weapon. also, if you make false surrenders, you will gain that reputation among other players, and when you surrender, they will shoot you. we have a player that we dont let surrender, because he pulls that trick so much. sorta like the punishment for violating the geneva conventions is making them no longer apply to you....
also, we seperate "safety kill" and "surrenders" a safety kill counts as someone firing a weopon and killing the enemy, which can only be done after he is captured. so what happens, you sneak up on some guy, go up to him and say freeze(or cuss him out, or whatever) if you then choose not to keep him, and you are too close to fire at them, you expend one shot(into the ground, or air) and then tell the player he is dead, that shot is considered a hit, becasue you are so close, and you would probably have the barrel to his head. might sound a little unnessesary to some of you, but it ensures that everyone knows exactly whats happening. those are the "official" rules of my field that we play by, but what we usually end up doing is resting the barrel on the other person's shoulder, and if we fire from that position, it counts as a hit, but it gives them the opritunity to bust out some moves and knock the gun away and run for it. as for concealed weopons, i keep a knife i made out of that craft foam(their sheets about the size of a piece of paper, in about an 8th inch thickness, comes in different colors, like gray) hidden on me somewhere(that is legal in my field, i wouldn't use it elsewhere without permission.)

[AllenTC2]

Like it has been said in several other threads......if there are ANY variations to the rules, whether it be Surrenders, Searches, POW rules, hidden weapons, etc. they had better be clearly explained PRIOR to the sart of the game. That way any questions or other issues can be worked out prior to play.

And I seriously doubt there was any formal strategy involving whipping out a pistol after surrendering.....while there is no doubt such incidents happened, I'd say it was the decision of fanatical individuals, not something taught in the Wehrmacht Basic.

[DeadlyAssassin05]

False surrender works so well on the gulible, but when pulled constantly it is expected and so surprise is lost.


To my friend Shooter, I also think you need to write a rulebook The current rules of enagement are ok but after a while get boring.

[RogueShooter]

is that your excuse for being a pansey and not coming to my last few games? :D and how would a rulebook make it "less boring" anyway?

[Texx]

I think "False Surrender" should be discouraged as it would lead to players deciding not to allow others to surrender.
If a person is going to use it simply to trick someone into not shooting him, then he's also gonna have to expect:
That person may report him as a cheater;
The player may lose his temper and assault the "surrenderee";
The surrendering player may become the target of future retaliation from fellow team members of the person who was tricked;
The surrendering player may quickly gain a reputation and if he actually needs a legtimiate surrender, may not be afforded one.

I would say, if you think you can get away with it try it. But don't be surprised if it doesn't go as well as you think it would.

[DeadlyAssassin05]

Well, thanks to all of you whom gave me a piece of your mind about false surrender. If I ever play a non springer game I'll definitely be mindful not to pull fake surrender. Right now though I might resort to using this tactic in springer games if it becomes necessary.

[AllenTC2]

"False surrenders" and any other "non-traditional" rules should really be discussed BEFORE a game starts. I wouldn't pull anything like that in a game unless it has been addressed in the scenario briefing. All you'll do is get capped, and probably piss off your buds.

[scooter]

Where im from, Kansas City Airsoft Organization or KCAA...... if you surrender it is like you have been hit, you go out!