How do you count hits?

[Professor Fate]

What is a kill in your games. My friends have been arguing with me as to what a designated kill is. I finally just said head and torso hits are an out and that's it. None of that 2 hits in an arm and 3 hits in a leg stuff. It's been a major sourse of controversy in my games and it sucks having to stop or shoot the person in the head to make sure he's out. How do you guys do it? I looked in the rules for AO but it didn't specify.

[Kaiser78]

The way that we play is any hit to the body/web gear/gear/gun is considered out. Yeah it sucks when you get hit in the gun but we dont have any problems with cheaters and that seems to be the level playing field for us.

If we get a close group of guys playing, like guys we all trust with 2+ years experience then we do what you do sometimes. Only as something different. We also like to act out our hits. Hit me in the chest, I might fly back (provided I know what I am going to land on) with my gun blazing in the air. If I get a flesh wound sometimes you will hear people yelling "medic" or "mama". It all helps with the immersion factor.

[D_Man]

Typical (general) AO games:

Any one hit to your body, clothes, gear count as a kill
Gun hits do not count as a kill.


For AO games that might use more realism or specific rules on hits fall to the discression of the organizer to make the rules and is crutial that every player knows the rules completely.

[MB38x]

I would think that if you've been hit in the arm or leg, you're probably in a bad situation and you'll be out within 20 seconds anyways. Imagine it in the real world: you get shot in the arm or leg, you either can't shoot or you're immobilized. Either way, you're screwed.

[AllenTC2]

Having actually seen and known people who have been hit by small arms fire, I can assure you that your estimates are a tad off base.

Modern FMJ ammo from service sized weapons replicated by AEGs (5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51) do not guarantee a "one-shot stop" if hit in the arm or leg. Should a major artery or vein be hit...okay, you're up the creek. However, history is full of examples of injured people performing extraordinary feats of arms. Allowing a player to be hit in an extremity and be "treated" or allowed to continue play in a "degraded mode" is not far-fetched.

So in airsoft, I think implementing some sort of multiple hit rule is perfectly acceptable, if you want to play that realistically. A combination of medic rules and such can really add to the MILSIM flavor of airsoft.

[MB38x]

Allen, I like your idea. But, for the record, I have been hit by small arms fire.

[AllenTC2]

:D And you're alive to tell of it which sorta proves my point. I assume you got it in the arm or leg? Were you immobilized? Were you incapable of movement? Shock is a wonderful thing. I had a buddy in Desert Storm fire a M203 HEDP round into a pickup truck about 75 meters away. When it blew, he caught a chunk of shrapnel (the guy got the Purple Heart from his own grenade!! ) in his leg about the size of a half dollar....never realized it was there until he was back on the Bradley and put his hand on something wet.

Granted, grenade shrapnel is not a bullet, but still....

[MB38x]

It was a 9mm FMJ into my left arm, clean in and out, didn't hit bone. Hurt like all hell. I suspect that had I been in a "combat" situation I would've reacted differently, but I couldn't move my entire left arm without experiencing unbelievable pain. Again, different situations, different reactions.

Anyways, I really like the idea of requiring "medical attention" in the field. Not being in the military, I have to assume that they would act differently than I would upon being shot. I wasn't in a life threatening situation when it happened, so there's the reason for my reaction. So I do agree with you: an arm or a leg shot should leave you alive, but in need of "medical attention".

[AllenTC2]

I would imagine you are right about the situation. Without exception, everyone I know of was injured during combat. I imagine that plays a HUGE part in how you'd react. LOL I don't suppose you'd want to share with us what exactly happened in your situation?

I have seen a lot of medic rules and such since starting airsoft. They vary greatly in "methodology" but they basically serve two purposes...to inject a little realism into the game and to keep the game going. I'm not sure if we posted anything about this in our MILSIM posts (pre-hack) but most of your MILSIM games tend to pit a smaller force (SFOD-D, SAS, etc.) against a larger, indigent force. As such, the smaller force is NOT going to be able "reinforce" easily, as they are typically "behind enemy lines" or operating isolated from it's parent unit. The larger force typically is representing the a local unit, and should be able to reinforce rather quickly.

So, medic rules allow the smaller force to retain "combat effectiveness" longer than it's opponents, but suffers as once a soldier is dead, that's it. The other force plays by the "one hit/out" out, but enjoys the fact that "dead" soldiers can be replaced once a certain criteria is met.

To satisfy the purists out there, this can be represented as the SF guys having better medical training/equipment (and thus being able to treat injuries) and having superior marksmanship (thus, their opponents are typically killed instead of wounded).

One thing we (some of the MILSIM obsessed OVMB guys) have been hashing over is HOW to act out the medic rules. We don't want the medic to simply tag the wounded guy and say "You're healed", we want him to spend some time, simulating actually placing a dressing on the wound. However, we also want a system that doesn't wind up being abused, costing a lot, or having some guy running around like the Mummy from multiple hits. We also have differences of opinions on whether such a system is too complex to be used in play..in short, it'll confuse players.

Anyway, all this is rather off-topic, the long and short of it is how you count hits is really dependant on the style of play you want.

[MB38x]

I was hit in a really stupid manner. I was at a WWII reenactment where there was a live-fire area (they had a shooting range set up at the location already). I was behind the red-line, but somehow a stray 9mm round ricocheted off of the backdrop that they had. Nobody's quite sure what it bounced off of, but it came back at an angle and nailed me. It was in the thinner area of my arm, passed through a small part of my tricep, so it was able to pass through cleanly regardless of how low its velocity was at that point (I have to imagine that it had been deformed by its first impact as well).

Anyways, I healed completely, the scar's barely visible unless I flex my tricep and they built a far far safer range for later reenactments.

Hurt like hell though.

[sumguy2280]

well, im like twelve years old so yall probobly wont care about my opinion but me and my friends (their about 15) we play where if you get hit in the arm you cannot use that body part in any way if you get sht in the leg you have to hop or crawl its more fun to us.(that is until you get shot in the back of the head trying to CRAWL away!)cool we can change the font color!

[jmac1025]

I used to play like that with Nerf guns. It was very fun, I think it would be really fun to try with airsoft.

[sumguy2280]

yeah um im not quite sure but are you makin fun of me cuz im 12?

[jmac1025]

What the **** are you talking about? I'm not making fun of you, if thats aimed at me. I stated that I used to play that with nerf guns. And I then stated that I would like to try it in airsoft. What? How did you interpret that as making fun of you?

[Anubis_SectionVIII]

Back to the subject, we usualy do one shot, one kill, unless it's fingers, or gear. Yeah, I've been shot by small arms on more than one occasion, the first time I didn't realize it until someone told me I'd been shot, damn 9mm has no penetration, so I pulled them both out with needle nose plyers, not such a good idea. Then I got one in the leg with a god damn .45. Sad thing is it was my own .45, I was heading out to the target range, and as I drew it from the holster and it misfired and hit my thigh and then my femur. The muscle healed around it, but the bullet is still in there, and sometimes it hurts. Never been immobilized.

[sumguy2280]

I used to play like that with Nerf guns. It was very fun, I think it would be really fun to try with airsoft.

you never cleary stated what "that"meant i thought you were saying that you think i was too young to have airsoft guns and wars so im sorry i misunderstood you!

[Cobalt-Blue]

I used to do that with nerf guns as well as wiffle bats during night flag games.

[notabob]

hey, sumguy, you can use the quote button to quote people...otherwise i have nothing to say on this subject.

[jmac1025]

Ok sumguy, not a problem:)

[AllenTC2]

MB - yeah, ricochets are a PITA. I do my shooting into a hillside near the house on targets hung from a home-made stand. For future reference, do NOT use large head nails, or at least driver the nails perpendicular to the direction of fire!!! I was practicing with a .45 ond day and heard this "buzzzz" go right past my head. Apparently one of my rounds hit a nail head beneath the paper and bounced right back at me!!!

Anubis - c'mon, confess....unless you had some sort of total junk 45, it was a negligent discharge, not a misfire!! :p My guess, you had the manual safety off and your finger in the guard before the gun was clear!

[jedikranma]

we play any hits to the body or gun counts as a kill. Even if you get hit wearing a camelbak counts as a kill

[AllenTC2]

A question regarding hits to the gun....is that just to keep things simple? I can see saying a hit to body/gear is a "kill" just to keep things easy, but a gun hit, IMHO should not count. If you want realism, make a gun hit render the gun inoperable.

[Chaos008]

That's how we play. A hit to the gun renders the gun inoperable. Standard... we play a hit to the body or gear counts as a kill.

But we also have a system at the field I play at. It's designed to be more realistic, and in my mind does a good representation of such. It uses a point system, you start at 10, a hit to the arm or leg is -4 points, a shot to the torso -8 points, headshot - 10 points. If you get hit in your arm or leg, you can't use it, you'd have to hop or shoot with your other hand, depending on where you get shot.

Certain body armor rules also apply. A replica Kevlar helmet can deflect one shot to the head. Replica body armor modified to weigh 16 or more lbs can deflect rounds as well.

Medics can "treat" you so you may regain points during the game, but use of the wounded part is still limited.

Overall, we've had little to no problems under this system. For the most part, everyone thats a part of the system knows one another, and if someone cheats, we know it. But I must say, its a lot more realistic to turn to your partner and hear them say "Got one in the arm, Bill got shot in the legs, were pretty tore up" Stuff like that makes the game more fun.

[AllenTC2]

Chaos, how do you keep track of points? That sounds like an interesting system, but does it have some sort of component where your medic has to do something to treat the wound?

[CoOk!3 6()|)]

easy simple way to do it, is 1 hit, and you're out, whether it's gun or gear or body or limb. keeps arguments to a minimum. so there' s none of that "hey! you're out!" "No, you only hit my gun" stuff. just makes the game a lot simpler, and keeps arguments from occuring.

just my 2 cents

Scott

[AllenTC2]

Cookie, no offense, but some of us like more realism than "dodgeball rules". As has already been said, hit rules vary depending on your style of game.

[Chaos008]

Yes, the medic would tie a bandage around the wounded area. You have to personally keep track of the points you lost. And really it is not hard or complicated as you lose the use of that limb/other part.

As for confusion and arguements, we basically know if someone is cheating. We confront them off the field, but on the field, when we know someone is cheating, you make them call out. If I hit someone, and they don't call out, I don't yell at them, I open up on them till they have no choice but to call out.

On top of all that, the games we play are highly mission oriented. You can kill the enemy, and still lose. I remember one mission, the team I was on was slaughtered, walked right into an ambush. The other team took like one casualty, but they lost. They failed to secure the intel that we were supposed to recover, so they lost, we won, and we were all dead. Killing isn't everything in our games, it's more of a thinking man's game.

[AllenTC2]

We had a similar system in the works..you get hit in an extemity, you lose the use of that extremity until a medic treated you. A hit to the torso restricted your actions even further, even AFTER being treated, and a head shot was a kill. Instead of bandages, our idea was to use a nut and bolt. The medic would arrive, take the injured guy's nuts and bolt, and thread on the appropriate number (1 for each hit to arm/leg, 2 for torso) of nuts onto the bolt. Once you had 4 nuts, you were dead.

[Chaos008]

We never regain full use of the wounded area. At first I though, "the medic treated me, I should be fine." But anymore, I think about a soldier shot in the field... he's never fully recovered from a hit, he's still wounded in the field, so I kinda got used to it.

I enjoy having more realism in the game. It opens more doorways to experience the real situation. And it has given me a greater respect for people that go through any type of combat situation.

[AllenTC2]

Well, realistically, unless you tear away a big chunk of muscle mass, or break a bone, you could still use a hit limb, just not as well, and it'd probably hurt like the dickens. But in a combat environment, a soldier may find that pain from moving an injured limb is a lot better than the alternative of NOT moving that limb and winding up getting killed. Gotta love adrenaline!! ;)

[CoOk!3 6()|)]

Just because we play one hit outs doesn't make airsoft like dodgeball by any stretch of the imagination. I completely understand your desire for more realism in airsoft. However, sometimes in airsoft, once you get your adrenaline pumping, you don't feel hits at all. Combine that with the fact that people often don't hear you call out over the sound of their guns, and you're getting nail nearly 10 times, or possibly more. I just don't see the worth of playing with multiple hits. That's just our style of play, not necessarily for everyone, but it sure is a lot of fun for us.

laters,

Scott

Edit:
Fixed some of those blasted typos

[necronomicon]

If you really want to be hardcore..play with 500 FPS guns an no engagment distances, and hose someone till they just give up.

[AllenTC2]

LOL Is that Sho Kushogi???? I haven't seen him in decades!!!

Cookie, I understand that, but that's all just part of the "fog of war". Personally, I don't like the "call out" part either. I think the hit player can fall silently to the ground, or die horribly, screaming for mamma. Anything other than standing up, putting a rag on his head, etc.

And you're gonna have the issue of feeling hits regardless of the hit rules.

[CoOk!3 6()|)]

*shrug*

WORD... whatever makes you happy. :)

[AllenTC2]

:D Yo, peace out, my shinizzle!

[Chaos008]

That is another thing we do, we usually play 30 min to an hour games on open play dates. During such, if we die, we don't yell out "hit" or anything, we just die. And we normally lay in place till the game has ended, unless the fight has carried on elsewhere, then we can vacate the field. I think yelling "hit" and walking off the field isn't a bad thing, but I like walking by bodies on the ground, being forced to check them to make sure they aren't just wounded and pop one in you.

[AllenTC2]

We're trying to get our guys into day-long games...obviously the wounded can be moved, but the "dead" are gonna lay there until the battle moves off or the victors can search them for intel (maps, radio freqs, etc.). Once that is done, the "dead will rise" and execute whatever drill we utilize to "resurrect" them.

[Boogy]

Originally posted by AllenTC2
. The medic would arrive, take the injured guy's nuts . . . and thread on the appropriate number (1 for each hit to arm/leg, 2 for torso) of nuts onto the bolt. Once you had 4 nuts, you were dead.

Did anyone else find this comment rather funny?

[Chaos008]

Day long events are fun. It allows for catering to the dead and wounded in a more realistic manner, as you have more time to fight and accomplish other objectives. All of it just makes the game better, it's not just about shooting the enemy, it's about saving your own team before its too late.

then again, who can't use a shoot-em-up game once in a while?!

[AllenTC2]

Ya know Boogy, when I typed that, I was wondering.."Who is gonna be the first person to comment." Congratulations, perv! ;)

[Spook]

Four nuts...actually sounds kinda painful. Tough to walk with two sometimes. Especially if...oh nevermind. :D

Now to the real subject. One hit games are ridiculous and unrealistic. They are fine for quick warm up games but for any kind of scenario, they suck.

BSTAB has some realistic rules. They make sense and they are field tested. Check with TV Casualty for details. The medic HAS to treat the wounded. I modified the rule to allow only three wounds max. That is the one flaw in TVs otherwise excellent system. It doesn't account for trauma, just mpact. You might fight on with one wound, depending on location. You might even fight on with two wounds, but once you get hit a third time, the body has this nasty way of saying ENOUGH and just shutting down.

Special Forces at Op: Robin Sage were considered cross-trained and so could treat any other member of their unit with a single bandage. Each SF man had a single bandage. A medic carried a full compliment of bandages.

For one local game, we experimented with each side having DIFFERENT hit rules to allow for one side being technically larger than the other. The 'regulars' used a three hit and out rule. The guerillas died on each hit, but could run out of sight, and come back in 60 secs to simulate a brand new guerilla arriving on the scene.

EAGs Battle Honor Corps system has merit. I believe that is the system one of you in referring to. Just keepin all of those locations in mind might be tough until you got used to the system.

Until someone comes up with a reliable PB for Airsoft that can be fired through an AEG or GBB without bursting in the barrel and making a mess, we will still have to rely on sensory recognition of impact. You feel it or you hear it.

Spook

[Chaos008]

Yep Spook, you guessed it. I play at EAG. I must say, when the system came out, I was hesitant, thought there was too much to learn. All's I can say is I'm glad it happened. Makes the game more enjoyable.

You been to EAG Spook?

[Nate The Great]

Heres a thing u guys can do. A shot to the torso or head is a kill. If they player is hit anywhere else he must get medical attention, lets say before a minitue passes. The medic is equiped with lets say 10 red dots or sticky things that he can put on his men "beging healed" once he runs out of these he can no longer heal anyone and his teammates now die. If the man is shot he must yell medic or sumfin and medic to "operate" on him. for 20 seconds or so, to show realism. U could also have a spawn point, or a freinly fortress, where there is more medical suplies that u can get. or depots around the map, so id be straigist for teams to capture them so they could move onto there next obj.

[Chaos008]

That's pretty much what we both said.

As for the respawn stuff, I don't agree with respawns, save major operations and fast paced games. My thinking is that a unit is sent in to accomplish the mission, if they get into some shat and call for backup, you are gona get a full strenght unit... squad, platoon, you get the point. I like it when men die and you have to adapt to the situation. It's the way the world works, adapt.

[AllenTC2]

Chaos, I see your point, but consider this.....

Most MILSIM airsoft scenarios generally involve one smaller "SPECOPS" unit vs. another "regular" unit. I'm no expert on SPECOPS, but I'd imagine your "direct action" missions (where you kill people and break things) tend to involve larger units and your recon or intel gathering missions involve less.

So lets say you want your scenario to have your 12-man SEAL unit infiltrate some guerilla-infested area and assassinate their leader. You've got 20 players on hand to play. How are you gonna break them down?

12 SEALS, 8 guerillas? Not very realistic. 10 on 10? balanced, but still not realistic. If it were me, it's be 6 on 14, and here is my plan and justification;

SEAL team gets to use medic rules, meaning one hit doesn't knock them out of play. This reflects their superior training and equipment, and the LACK of marksmanship training and equipment (optics) among the guerillas. SEAL team ALSO gets 6 resurrections, either each man can resurrect once, or the SEALs leader can decide who comes back.

Guerillas simply get hit and die. They go to a predetermined spot to resurrect. They may have to wait until a set number of other guerillas are "killed" and they depart the resurrection point as a group. This reflects the guerillas' poor medical training, the SEALs superior marksmanship, and simulates other bands of guerillas in the area hearing the fight and coming to join in. Of the 14, 4 must remain in the objective area (the target's security detail) at all times.

So yes, I think there is a place for resurrection in games, ESPECIALLY MILSIM, as it allows a few people to simulate a larger unit. Use of medic rules, and creative restrictions on resurrections can help with realism AND make the game a challenge. In the example above, the SEAL team will want to approach the target area as stealthily as possible before hitting the target. They can't simply walk a straight line to the objective, duking it out with everyone they encounter.

[Chaos008]

See, it really depends on how you play. Where I play, we have 30 min to hour game scenarios. For people to resurrect in that time period would render the missions we play impossible. I do, however, see your point.

On the norm, we have 3 teams going onto the field at a time, not always balanced. Here's how we do it at ouropen plays.....

All airsofters, save the home team, break into 2 separate teams.Normally one is larger thn the other. The home team usually has around 8 men. All teams have members in the Battle Honor Corps, following the rules I have mentioned before. Therefor no team has any advantage, it all relies on the team itself.

Many times the home team has KILLED 30+ players. Size doesn't alwaysmatter, but I see what you mean about those rules. But in 30 min to hour games, respawn holds little value in my mind. Unless it's a medic evacuation, which we do. If you drag your dead and wounded back to the safe zone, then they can respawn. I like that idea as it is exfilling your wounded.

Now in larger games, lasting longer than 30 min- 1 hour, I can see using respawn, and I prefer it. But shorter operations, I should have said I like respawn when you exfill wounded. Does that make sense, or did I start goin off on a tangent? Hehe.

[ErrantStorm]

Groo, that's a really sweet scenario. You're so godly with examples.

[AllenTC2]

Chaos, yeah, for quick games your method makes sense.

Errant - flattery will get ya nowhere. ;)

[Deviant]

Groo,

Errant is sucking up to all that he can prior to our game....he KNOWS hell is waiting on him to arrive!:D

Now...to give my quick thought....

Its needs to be good guy small # (like the 6) and bad guy larger # (like 10-14) with no regens either way. Make the good guy side comprised of more experienced players or even a full team like OVMB (for instance) and the bad guys a mix and match of whoever is left.

In reality, the SEAL's are well-trained professionbals who go into battle KNOWING they will be severely outnumbered. IMO, scenarios are to be realistic and as Groo stated....even teams are not realistic. It all depends on the scenario what rules need to be made and if you run good guy vs bad guy and use area location (guerillas vs SEALS) then you need to try to make it as realistic as possible.

Regens are worthless. Its not realistic and never will be. THE ONLY TIME regens should be used is to signify reinforcements and should be done with strict rulings and with a set group of players regening together. But again....with the fact that you will always have those that cheat....ANY scenario will be a difficult one to pull off with great success.

I like the above mentioned because it makes the lowered # team play more AS A TEAM and less as individual where on the other hand it can make the larger team play more as individuals and less as a team so both have practice/experience in both modes of play. The problem with Airsofting IMO is that we are too set on EVENING the play field, that we take the competitive edge away of team development and tactical thinking of being at a disadvantage. See what I am saying....I HOPE? :rolleyes:

[Spook]

Well, there is Bo's Wounded Rule. Now there is also Spook's Guerilla Rules. We tested it here at TRAP and it worked very well.

1. Players in the guerilla role may dress as they choose. They may wear either the top or the bottom of what ever the opposing force wears, but not both. (Assume they got them off a dead soldier.)

2. Guerillas die on a single hit, but immediately run off (to simulate their being dragged off by a comrade)

3. Once out of plain sight, they count to 60 and return as a totally 'different' guerilla. They may return alone or in force with others.

4. If while they are in the count process, they are found by an enemy, they must move again and restart the count. but they can't be shot while counting. They should display the red rag of death while in the count stage.

These are REINFORCEMENT rules, not respawn rules. REINFORCEMENT rules are essential to a scenario. RESPAWN rules simply drag out a process.

Spook

[Spook]

For MILSIM games, I like this idea:

B-STAB medic rules with a limit of 3 total trauma. On the 3rd hit, the man is evac-ed to a reinforcement point. B-STAB medic rules force the medic to BE a medic. He has to dress a wound, he doesn't do the Jesus thing (my euphemism for touch healing).

Combine this with Bo's Wounded Rule. This means that a teammate may 'carry' an untreated wounded player TO a medic/safety if necessary. If the carrying player is wounded, he must put down the wounded man and the wounded man receives a second/third hit.

Special Forces designated players are cross trained as medics and may treat their own or enemy wounded. SF personnel must be designated before the start of a scenario and carry one bandage (signifying a 'First Aid' kit).

A medic may NEVER heal himself. If the medic receives a wound, he is like any other player and must be taken to or treated by another medic.

If a medic's supply of bandages run out, he must have a runner go for new supplies or get them himself. If no more supplies are available, all wounded players die on their 2d hit (infection ya know...) In THIS SITUATION, dead players remain with their unit. (No evac.) This simulates the system breaking down, comms loss, unavailable resupply.

Evac-ed players return as needed to 'line units.' SF dead become part of line units. SF get no replacements. Choice to the organizer as to how he permits replacements back in (individual or squad system).

[AllenTC2]

Those are good ideas, but as Chaos pointed out, not really helpful to a short game. I'm not real fond of the "walk off after you're dead" thing either.

Personally, in the games I would like to play, returning in groups would be better than a possible constant flow of individual soldiers back into the fight.

In my example, at some point, one team would decisively beat the other. They would command the field and be able to search bodies/POWs. Once that was complete, the dead could then execute whatever "resurrection drill" the rules require. It may be Spook's "walk out of sight, wait a few minutes, then return" could work, maybe something more elaborate.

Deviant, I agree with your "reinforcement" idea, but realistically, most "direct action" teams are gonna have 8+ members. If you then want to give the opposing team a significant numerical advantage (to represent their lack of equipment/skills) you'd need something like 24 guys! How many AO teams can field that number for a game. Granted, we are talking about day-long MILSIM scenarios, which aren't exactly an AO staple, but still. I would rather field 6 players (who represent a team of 12) and allow them to "regen" one time each. In their case, they really don't have to wander off to any "resurrection point" as the team is all together. They take their lethal hit, perhaps the medic must "confirm" the guy is "KIA" beofre the player is allowed to begin fighting again as one of the remaining 6 "ghost" team members.

The guerillas on the other hand start off as a complete team of 10, and as they die, they MUST withdraw from the battle, as there are no addtional troops in their band. Once 4 or so are waiting at the resurrection point, they may go back to the battle, representing a smal group of reinforcements heading towards the sound of the fight.

[Ninja]

I agree with most of your theories on hit counts and such so im not going to confuse you all with my opinion on it.

but what Im deeply struck by is the fact that you guys dont see the seriousnous of screaming MEDIC in an airsoft environment(usually the terrain is rather dangerous, littered with rebar, glass,etc.)I have been a civil war reenactor for a few years now. If you yell medic doctors are on you in a flash and they have an ambulance on call. I dont think MEDIC should be the word called for an airsoft player struck by a bb needingattention . I understand that it sounds cool and all but for safety reasons, i think that DOCTOR or SURGEON should be used. I know they sound corny and are better suited for the mid-19th century battlefield, but its a matter of safety.

[AllenTC2]

LOL I must confess, I never thought about that. I would dare say not many of us actually skirmish with a decent first aid kit on hand!!!

That being said, IMHO, if I hurt myself seriously enough to require aid from someone else (shot in the eye, broken limb, etc.), it will be evident to everyone around that I am in REAL distress, not MILSIMulated pain. Who here is gonna have the presence of mind to yell "Medic" when you trip and fall, running a jagged tree limb into your thigh? You're gonna holler bloody murder, and your pal will be the one saying "Holy Cow!! Come see what Billy Bob done did to hisself!!!"

[notabob]

i carry a whistle for such an occasion. it may come in handy some day, though i certainly hope it wont.

[Ninja]

Im just stating my concern completely out of safety. ive seen some not so pretty situations in reenacting that MEDIC saved a few peoples eyes. if you guys want to yell MEDIC thats fine. but on the airsoft field and you hear someone yelling SURGEON or DOCTOR!. you'll know its the safety nut with red hair.LOL:)

[AllenTC2]

I'm not belittling your idea Ninja, it's a great point. As much as the guys at AO emphasize safety, it makes sense there should be a universal, clear signal to indicate there is a real injury. I know where I'd like to play there exists a real chance of injury due to the terrain.

[Spook]

The solution here is plain. leave a channel open for emergencies on the radio. I prefer Channel 9, since it;s universally the REACT channel.

Spook

[AllenTC2]

And for those w/o radios??? ;)

[Sgt. Horvath]

call for the nearest opponent or teammate and ask them to radio for help(assuming they have one) or have them yell for help since they arent in pain and could probly yell louder. just dont leave the player injured alone

[Chaos008]

If something is wrong, "EMERGENCY" or "BLINDMAN" or something similar being called is cause for an immediate halt to the game, both sides.

As for reinforcing men... personally, I don't like it unless it is an all-day scenario or one requiring 1 hour or more of constant play. It makes me think about everything more than when I know I'll come back. The only way I really like it is exfilling dead and wounded. It is such a burden to do, but carrying your fallen team members gives you a sense of accomplishment. You were a team player. There's more to a mission than killing the enemy and completing the objective. Your team is the most valuable asset in completing any mission, and when you save a teammate from death, it means something, you trust that person. There's a few softers I trust cause they came back into town to drag my sorry @ss out! Thanks LT.

For the most part, I do not believe in "even teams, even chances." In real-life expirieces, even SF has been suprised. Somalia, perfect example. Things always go wrong, so I don't believe making things equal makes sense.

[Scorpion]

that is possibly the best example of why milsim airsoft is far superior to regular, go out in the woods and hunt the OPFOR. though i've never had an experience like yours Chaos, i can say that i agree with your opinon 100%

[Spook]

That is why my idea of using the B-STAB medic rules with the tried- n-true Bo's Wounded Rule makes good sense. There will be times when the medic will be on the other side of the field from you and unable to get your location. The only other option is to 'carry' your untreated wounded to the medic or a rally point where the medic can safely come to them. You then get that feeling Chaos is refering to of getting your conrades out of danger.

There are times in larger scenarios when reinforcements make sense. You shouldn't have them for every op. There are other options. The one thing that you want to AVOID at all costs is having dead players sitting idle. Organizers need to beware of this. There is no excuse for dead tents full of players who paid good money and in some cases traveled long distances sitting around scratching their collective heinies for long periods.

To prevent that, each scenario needs to have variables. OK..I can hear it now. "Spook, what's a variable?" A variable is a sub-mission within a scenario. Example: in a recent TRAP guerilla game at the Warden, when the regular forces died off, they were sent back in under a new guise: A SOG team permitted to operate on the opposite side of the creek which was the guerillas's home country. Regular troops didn't have that permission. The two groups were only permitted minimal contact, even though they were from the same country. Two different missions, theoretically miles apart. Everyone got to keep playing.

Another option, especially with more modern scenarios is the 3rd party option. Blue is fighting Red. Green is no friend of either side. If enough players are present, when players are eliminated from one side or the other, they become Green. Now suddenly there is a new threat. What happens to Green's dead? Simple. Green dead go BACK to the team they started on provided the scenario lasts that long. In a certain sense, it's delayed reinforcement. If the scenario ends with some Green players still in the field, so be it. Green might even become powerful enough numerically to whip everyone's butt, but chances are not that good for a total Green victory; they are there only as spoilers. The object is to achieve the scenario objective, not create the 3rd party team. Think of Green as a rival warlord to Red.

Another 3rd party option is to have the dead become Civilians. If you are eliminated, you must pull the magazine on your weapon and you can't re-enter 'active' combat until you are recruited by one side or the other. You may also decline to be recruited by one side or the other at any given time. This means that you can rest if you're tired and come back in at a later point or even join the opposite side. As a civilian, you can be questioned by one side or the other and give true, false or no information.

These are just some ideas to spice up otherwise dull games.

Spook

[ErrantStorm]

Spook=Scenario God

[necronomicon]

I like the civilian idea. I think I will implement it in the next game I am organizing next weekend. We has simple "You hit, your done" rules in effect, but a 6vs6 game in the woods lasted 4 hours before eaither team gained a victory, with an hour and a half of constant shooting at the end. So much fun.

The green team idea is great, though it may caused confusion and lead to team kills, unless each player carries a color of armband from each team, so people will know who to shoot and who to not. If Bob gets hit and is half a mile away from you and switches teams, how do you know that Bob is your enemy now? I guess radios could be used, but some people dont have them. Or lets say you have one of the opforce get shot and joins your team, and you dont see it. You will likely light up your own teammate. With armbands, this could all be solved easily, although might cut down on realism for you milsim fans out there.

My idea is that dead players are to act out their deaths and lie down where the die. When the battle moves on, they are instantly back in the game. If people from both teams are laying right beside each other, the people from one team must move out till out of sight range, then the members of the next team come back to life. This could lead to a really chaotic, yet fun game if you just want to shoot and kill all afternoon without taking the time to reorganize, which means less play time. A time limit should also be set though, so players can reload and regroup.

I do agree that revived players should not be healed just by a touch. Bandages should be applied for medic rules. I just dont see why the medic could not heal himself at least once. If I got shot in the field like in the arm IRL and had medic training, I am sure I could patch myself up. If medics abuse the rule and heal themselves too many times, just dont let them play as medic for the rest of the day, or make it so they can only heal themselves one, then need to seek a medic elsewhere. It sounds more realistic to me this way, but some of you will probobly see this differently. Either way, I am liking the ideas that are being generated in this thread. Well done everybody :)

[Spook]

If the armbands are not too huge, that shouldn't be a problem. If you wear big hulking ones, yeah.

As for the medic healing himself, it would depend on where he got hit. Since we don't differentiate, it's best left as it is.

The comment about Jesus healing was not meant to be a cutdown of Christianity. I believe in that sort of thing myself, but on the battlefield it doesn't take place. I take it you are an adherent of Mr. Crowley or perhaps Mr. LaVey with a name like Necronomicon? Yeah I know what it is. Keep a Book of Shadows too? Careful where you tread with comments like that.

S

[ErrantStorm]

Oh, cmon Spooker....

I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it. And even if he did LaVey is an ok guy.

[Spook]

Never said he did Jake. Anton was weird. His daughter is hot though. Now that he is dead, he might be too, LOL.

Personally, I don't much care what you worship, as long as I don't wind up with an athame stickin out of my chest. I know what I believe, and if someone else wants to know, I will tell em.

[ErrantStorm]

Well now that that's all over...

[DeadlyAssassin05]

We used to play with 2 shots/arm or leg or 1 head/torso shot = kill/out. Some people complained and so we switched to a 1shot kills rule because of less "controversy". I hate 1 shot kills because I play with a group that uses spring guns, that aside, it's also highly unlikely an arm shot or a leg shot would kill unless a major artery were hit. Hopefully, we'll soon switch to the medic system with a medic who goes around treating people for traumas till they are "killed" or run out of supplies. The problem with that though is determing how to play using real rules (Geneva Convention) that don't allow for the killing of a medical personnel member displaying the red cross.

[necronomicon]

Yeah, my book of shadows is pretty nice. I like to cast magic that turns cows inside-out, and I wear my black hooded robe to school every day :rolleyes: I wasnt trying to bash religion. I just think its funny how the guy just puts his hand on people's heads and says "your healed!". Enough on that, anyways, airsoft is my religion ;)

At our event yesterday, we only counted hits to the torso or head to be "kills". Granted, we are not milsim players what-so-ever, but if someone gets shot in a stupid place like the foot, they wont want to call out. We also do not follow AO type rules, just a dozen guys from Mount Vernon playing in the woods and having a good time. As the community in airsoft here grows, we might switch to more strict rules on hits. But, we pretty much know each other really well, so different circumstances require different rules.

[Spook]

One of the guys in another thread had an interesting idea that would work in smaller games with smaller groups. Instead of the usual hit and out INDIVIDUAL rule, each time you take a hit, you retreat backward to your start point for x amount of time. If you get pushed back all the way, then you're out.

[Spook]

Yeah, my book of shadows is pretty nice. I like to cast magic that turns cows inside-out, and I wear my black hooded robe to school every day

LOL...well I have this guy who kills em. THEN, I roast em over an open fire and EAT EM. (head spins backward) kaets evig em kaets!!!

koops;)

[Chaos008]

Eh, that sounds like a Red-light, Green-light version of airsoft to me. STOP, you got hit, GO, I'm shooting at you. Granted I understand the concept, but I dont see it highly applicable unless I have misunderstood a part of it. I do like seeing people think up new rules and ways of play though, shows we can actually think instead of doin the same old routine all the time.

[GhostPOW]

it sounds kind of like the normandy game i played at airsoft hawaii. the allies had a spawn point and the germans were on the hill. the allies had 4 respawns and the germans have two to keep the battle going longer. when somebody is out, they go to their spawn point and in intervals of however long a whistle is blown to signal that everyone who was out is back in. its pretty fun!

[wingsfan23]

We just use the standard, one hit head/torso is an out, and if you get hit in the leg/arm, a medic has to rap medic cloth around the hit four times. You can only be healed once, and on the second hit to leg/arm, you have lossed to much blood to survive... Works pretty good...

[Chapman]

I think the one shot one kill rule is just TOO simple and invokes cheating. Why not if you get shot in the Arm you have X amount of time before you die, therefore you start screaming your head off for a medic, realistic no? Arms and Legs have vital arteries in them and all the movies show these guys getting wounded in the leg and crap, most leg wounds end as fatalities without immediate medical attention because of two big mother chucking arteries. If you get shot in the shoulder, hip, butt, then your okay, you've got nearly 100% mobility, hip you kinda limp, shoulder that arm doesn't work so well. Stomach, you die real fast without a medic, chest, kill, head, kill. Legs and Arms are fatalities without medics. Fingers are almost insignificant. And why not make it more realistic, have guys actually carry the wounded out if they can't walk on their own such as a leg or stomach wound. None of this walking crap, actually have one or two guys carry him out of the line of fire. While this is all going on I wouldn't mine taping it, it would be very realistic, have the guys like act and stuff.

[AllenTC2]

Actually arm and leg hits are NOT fatal most of the time. You're talking about the femoral arteries in the legs (forever immortalized in "Blackhawk Down") and its counterpart in the arms. If you'll note, those major blood carrying vessels are located on the INSIDES of those limbs, to protect it from injury. So for airsoft purposes, there is no point in treating an arm/leg wound as "urgent"

If you go so far as to count hit location, abdominal injuries tend to be worse. Death is usually due to three things..1) Immediate blood loss, 2) Infection caused by debris being carried/blown into the abdomen and 3) destruction of certain organs, such as kidneys, etc. Note that the latter two categories take a while longer to cause death.

However, an abdominal wound has a much greater psychological effect. A guy may be able to shrug off a wound to the arm/leg as a "mere scratch".....but it's awful hard to shrug off the fact that your intestines are protuding through that hole in your stomach and dangling around your knees.

You would be well advised to also read the voluminous "Medic Rules" thread, as we discuss a lot about hits, hit locations, etc. and possible ways to handle it.