New BBs - samples - request for feedback

[Blammonator]

For several months now my partner and I have worked to perfect a dry transfer marker BB. We now believe we have an excellent product.

We would like to send qualified parties who express an interest, a sample of our work and get your feed back on them.

"Qualified," for us is a rather loosely defined term since we are trying to get the broadest possible impression... We would just prefer giving samples to folks we have a reasonable expectation will bother telling us what they think.

We will give sample distribution priority to:

Brick and mortar retail
Forum Mods
Veteran Posters
Online storefronts who have a proper permanent address (not the closet in the back bedroom).
and...
a limited number of just plain ordinary users.


So whether you're the coolest of the cool or the n00best of the new to the sport, we want to know what you think and are willing to send out a mess of samples everyone to test.

We aren't made of money (yet):D so the supply will be limited.
It isn't going to be "first come, first served." We want to be a little selfish about who we send these to since we're giving them away.

If you're interested in some details of what we are giving away, you can click on over to the Grudge Tactical website and check out the Blammo Kill-Markers. (http://www.grudgetactical.com/home.html)

If you think you'd like to participate, please be over 18 (sorry... contacting us through your parents is cool, but we won't ship to minors, unsupervised.)
and be willing to spend a few minutes sending us a list of observations we ask that you make while trying them out. Send an inquiry through our website contact page and give us a very few words about who you are and why you would be a great person for us to listen to. We'll look the requests over in a week or so, or when we get what we think are probably enough of them, and we'll send you an email back requesting delivery info.

[JustinSane]

intriguing, but what are the bbs' weight?
woops didnt see it .2

have any of your developer's tested the bbs?

[Darkstar]

I'm a veteran of the airsoft community in Ohio, as well as an airsoft retailer. I would be happy to evaluate and review your BB's and I'll definitely give you honest feedback. If you're interested in sending me some samples, please feel free to private message me and I'll pass along my contact info.

Darkstar out.

[Sidd]

After playing for about 8 years I know Airsoft is a sport base on Honor. We don't need to leave marks on our opponents.

But after Looking at your website and the production I would be willing to give them a try as I am intrigued by the mechanics of how they could only transfer on impact and not during handling and loading.

[Locutus]

I agree with Sidd, I do not see a need for marking BBs.

Though I would be interested in how they work, just out of curiosity.

[vbtb110]

I'm down for trying them out.

[Blammonator]

...have any of your developer's tested the bbs?

My partner and I are "the developers" and yes, they have been tested in some of the best guns we could find, and mostly in some of the worst we could find.

These are not made for us somewhere in a sweatshop in Myanmar and then represented as our own work... These came from my hand. I invented the process, and refined it. My partner has pulled the weight of the administrative tasks pretty much alone and I have run test batch after test batch with slightly different formulations until they seem to perform perfectly.

We are two relatively circumspect guys, who have succeeded where the only other real attempt to make a marker BB (the 6mm paintball) has been, in my opinion, a monstrous and costly failure.

I made these. I am responsible for them, good, bad... or indifferent.

How I made this work?

Magic.http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo236/Blammokillmarker/happyfacecrop.jpg

There is no question that airsoft is a game of honor.
These will absolutely not stop cheating.

They demonstrated last weekend however at Ft. Riley that they are able to quickly and quietly end a "I hit you... No you didn't" dispute for an honestly unfelt hit.

They make near misses and unfelt hits easier to sort out.
They will not prevent someone from simply wiping the mark off.

...and we aren't trying to replace anyone's good conscience, just reduce misunderstandings and make the game more fun.

Which is why I've asked here, now that I think I've done a very nice job. I'd like some other people to check these out and give me a their thoughts.

Thanks for all of the terrific response everyone... and the good questions.

[JustinSane]

im not gonna lie it is a cool concept
plus you may be starting a whole new art movement
haha!

[Lone Panther]

so does the fact that they are dry mean they will get brushed off easily? I'm just trying to clairify because I don't want marks all over my gear.

[Blammonator]

im not gonna lie it is a cool concept
plus you may be starting a whole new art movement
haha!

ROFL... like the Mona Lisa paintball episode on mythbusters...
I like it.

so does the fact that they are dry mean they will get brushed off easily? I'm just trying to clairify because I don't want marks all over my gear.

It's possible you might need to scroll the webpage down a little. That is one of the considerations in their design.

[onsite]

I'd love to try them out.
Are they a bio bb as well?
Does the powder pose any problem to animals eating them?

[JustinSane]

onsite has a very good point

[Mavrick]

I applaud your effort, however I can honestly say this is approaching that "paintball" line i as well as others have strived to not be associated with. I'm also concerned about dust + fragment transfers in my mags, barrel, hopup, and gearbox.

Id like to see some relevant data showing the results of said parts after "X" amount of shots with your bbs.
I'd like to know what production tolerance number is.
I'd like to know the percent of failure over "X" amount of bbs.
I'd also like to see some data comparing distance and accuracy compared to a premium brand.

[Blammonator]

I'd love to try them out.
Are they a bio bb as well?
Does the powder pose any problem to animals eating them?

We weren't as concerned about them being eaten as we were about someone with a tweaked up sniper rifle putting a dig in someone with one.

Those parts of the formulation which aren't actually food grade, are at minimum cosmetic grade and totally inert.

I would not suggest eating them... the subject of flavor really wasn't a priority. :p They taste a bit yucky.

They are also not bio-BBs... yet.

We will be making these in a bio-degradable, and in a variety of weights. Right now we have a limited number of .20 g and are just seeing what the reaction to them is. Then we'll worry about making other weights and bio-BBs.

[shorty]

Mavrick has a good point...will these put dust inside our guns or could these cause any damage to our guns...because i don't really want to be using bbs that could damage the internals of my gun just because these bbs will leave a mark on what they hit.

[damnyankee]

I'll take a look at them.

Christopher Schroeder
Pyramydair.com
26800 Fargo Ave, unit L
Bedford Heights, OH 044146

[Hm2Opdoc]

I have been playing airsoft now for about 10 yrs and have a online retailer as well. I would love to test these out with not just writtne feeb back but video as well. PM I will pass you the details.

[onsite]

If you give me enough of them, I'm sure I could rig my PTW upside down with a big funnel and just run them until I'm out or something happens. It's probably about time to take mine apart for a once-over anyway.

[Fox]

Given product testing would need to happen, but as stated:

I would be worried about said powder being blasted back into the gearbox and down the barrel. One, since it is sticky of sorts, having other stuff stick to it, causing more jams and failures

Two, since people don't exactly take the best care of their guns internally, it getting all over pistons, etc. causing compression loss.

However, interesting concept to me. Just.. not sure if it's going to work or catch on.

[Mp5monster]

ROFL... like the Mona Lisa paintball episode on mythbusters...
I like it.


That had to be my favorite mythbusters thing ever!

[Blammonator]

I applaud your effort, however I can honestly say this is approaching that "paintball" line i as well as others have strived to not be associated with. I'm also concerned about dust + fragment transfers in my mags, barrel, hopup, and gearbox.

Id like to see some relevant data showing the results of said parts after "X" amount of shots with your bbs.
I'd like to know what production tolerance number is.
I'd like to know the percent of failure over "X" amount of bbs.
I'd also like to see some data comparing distance and accuracy compared to a premium brand.

Our first priority in making these was above all other considerations they had to be non-toxic. That doesn't mean we are satisfied with having a non-bio core, but we don't want to complicate things right now with the additional variables and expense. Later, we will make bio-BBs and then the whole BB will be environment friendly as well as non-toxic.

Our second priority was that they must not damage equipment, either the guns or magazines, and the mark must not stain, bleed or otherwise damage the target by their function as a marker... They are formulated not to do so, and we have seen zero evidence for this.

Our third priority was that they perform as a marker. They mark less well with less powerful impact and some springers don't have the power to deliver a really good mark, but they do mark with a springer, badly. They also don't do their best at the limits of a more powerful gun's range, for the same basic reason, not enough terminal ballistic power... we also don't want to make the coating too fragile or it could possibly shed dust or otherwise degrade in shipping... in its current form it does not.


Knowing the tolerance value without knowing the nominal value probably wouldn't do you much good so...
Prior to coating 5.935mm, post coating 5.950mm ±0.005mm tolerance


Exactly what sort of failures are you referring to?

We have had zero (0) barrel jams in about 20,000 rounds tested so far.
Even using the prior formulations which were less than ideal for one reason or other, we experienced (0) barrel jams.

We have however noted that none of our BBs has been able to maintain a committed relationship., hold down a stable job, or manage better than mediocre grades in class... We hold out a hope that with proper incentive they can be encouraged to do better in this regard.


Misfeeds... in magazines which did not display feed problems with plain BBs, no discernible difference.
In magazines which did demonstrate misfeed problems with plain BBs, improvement was noted when the cause for the misfeeds was determined to be friction surfaces inside the magazine that caused plain BBs to wedge against each other. The surface of Blammos is very low friction, and seems to help this a bit.
Where the problem was determined to be a seam or shoulder between two mismatched parts, using Blammos did not miraculously make crap parts work 100%, but in general they seemed to help the situation slightly were the problem was minor.


Failures due to fragmentation, dust and debris... zero. Just not an issue.
The coating is a pigmented dry lubricant 4-5µ mean particle size... It can leave a residue on sharp spots (magazine feed ears primarily) but the residue is extremely light and... it's a lubricant.


Some of the things you'd like to see, are things that quite frankly I'd like to see too. I'd like to know from impartial and diverse sources if these really do improve internal ballistics in the barrel and hop-up as much as they appear to.
In one particular (cheap) AEG they seem to extend the useful range about 25 feet, but we really don't have the resources yet to be able to stand behind that as a certainty. There are too many variables unaccounted.

In two good quality gas weapons they performed neither better nor worse, and in one of the crappiest (a Crossman co2 pistol) they almost doubled it's performance both for misfeeds and for effective range. Failure to load as the co2 cartridge reached its last few shots, was almost completely eliminated.

What we suspect is that high quality weapons will not necessarily see major functional benefit from the lubricant qualities of the coating, while it may be playing a role in bettering the performance of lesser quality airsoft arms. At the same time they do not evidence any interference with any of the weapons they have been tested in.

I didn't actually design them to improve performance in anything. The objective was that the coating would have a high lubricity to prevent it from interfering with function. I really had not anticipated that it would enhance function in some cases as it seems to.

I'd love to know with a certainty that these perform definitively as well or better for accuracy than some other product in every weapon available.

[JustinSane]

if selected, id gladly test if you wished... if you pm me.

[Mavrick]

"
We have however noted that none of our BBs has been able to maintain a committed relationship., hold down a stable job, or manage better than mediocre grades in class... We hold out a hope that with proper incentive they can be encouraged to do better in this regard."

Unforunately, those are all the kinds of qualities i'm not interested in when selecting a BB. ;)

Thanks for the thorough response, its highly appreciated.

[Donor]

Id be willing to test your bbs. pm me with some testing details if you are interested

[Zero]

I like the idea behind your product, but I wouldn't be interested now for a few reasons:
I believe that this could take away from the spirit of the game. Right now, the amount of people who cheat in-game is negligible because of the crowd here in Ohio, and by adding these markers, it pulls the honor-system from the game and creates a bad crowd of people playing the game.
I also would like sufficient testing done before I'd use them in any of my AEG's/GBB's. I understand that this is what you're trying to accomplish right now, but I'd let others take the chance before I did personally.
To me, this seems like a step towards paintball...using markers to show when you are hit...as someone said before, one big step backwards.

While I like that you are taking the initiative in trying to create a new product for airsoft players to enjoy, I don't think Ohio's airsoft market is looking for this right now.

I also can't help but notice that everyone that seems into the idea have been around less than a year...and all the vets are questionable.

[Blammonator]

Given product testing would need to happen, but as stated:

I would be worried about said powder being blasted back into the gearbox and down the barrel. One, since it is sticky of sorts, having other stuff stick to it, causing more jams and failures

Okay... The BBs are glossy and super slippery like my avatar image.
The coating is not a powder and does not shed off the BB. Not even if you handle them with wet hands.

Any that might come off on sharp spots like mag feed ears will be negligible and innocuous... and most importantly...
It is not sticky. It is not slightly sticky, is is not some kind of sticky... it is not sticky.
It is not sticky in a gearbox, not in the barrel and not in my tubesocks
It is not sticky in a FAMAS, in an M14 or in my pajamas.
It is not sticky Fox, you see, try them, buy them, you will see.
:D

Two, since people don't exactly take the best care of their guns internally, it getting all over pistons, etc. causing compression loss.

I really can't help that there are people who don't maintain their equipment any more than I can make them not buy crap guns... But if it helps any, I use a product we haven't released yet and put it in our test guns and it is essentially the same lubricant without the pigment.

However, interesting concept to me. Just.. not sure if it's going to work or catch on.

Okay.:)


@battlefield savior
Join Date: Sep 2007


I like the idea behind your product, but I wouldn't be interested now for a few reasons:
I believe that this could take away from the spirit of the game. Right now, the amount of people who cheat in-game is negligible because of the crowd here in Ohio, and by adding these markers, it pulls the honor-system from the game and creates a bad crowd of people playing the game.

Just something for you to consider.
If a man lacks honor, only he can restore himself by assuming responsibility for himself.
If a man has honor, what would it take to relieve him of it?
Surely nothing so trivial as whether a BB leaves a mark?

These BBs aren't your parents and they don't claim to substitute for them.
If you aren't already grounded in deeply felt personal self-worth these BBs will not bring that to you.

They have however demonstrated that they settle arguments between honorable men very quickly over unfelt hits and near misses.

I simply can't see how anyone could allow a situation where they held a poor opinion of a friend because they were certain they hit them, while their friend was certain they were missed... and so whether it is said openly or in whispers, or kept back in one's thoughts, the notion that they know a cheat festers and spoils the joy of the game for them.


I also would like sufficient testing done before I'd use them in any of my AEG's/GBB's. I understand that this is what you're trying to accomplish right now, but I'd let others take the chance before I did personally.
To me, this seems like a step towards paintball...using markers to show when you are hit...as someone said before, one big step backwards.

Please don't use any of our gearboxes, upgrade components, BBs or anything else we release this year if it makes you feel ethically challenged or morally ambiguous. I would hate to be the catalyst of your slow slide into spiritual decay and turpitude.

While I like that you are taking the initiative in trying to create a new product for airsoft players to enjoy, I don't think Ohio's airsoft market is looking for this right now.

I also can't help but notice that everyone that seems into the idea have been around less than a year...and all the vets are questionable.

Umm hang on... You're 15, and have yourself been on for a year, but you know what the Ohio airsoft market wants?

If you have legitimate skeptical comments cool.
Good questions make the asker smarter by asking, and the answerer smarter by answering,

Honorable men learn to ask their own questions and get their own answers, not rehash things others ask because they think they look cool being contrary.

[Wraith]

Well, I don't know the particulars of the proccessing or testing you went through to get your product, but I applaude you in your efforts to create a new product that could prove to be very useful especially to the snipers in the community.

I am nobody and hold no position of any importance on these forums so my opinion really doesn't mean a whole lot. However, I also share some of the concerns others have stated on here.(IE: jamming, dust in GB, dust in mags.) But, providing testing has been done in various enviroments and weather, you still haven't had any problems then I'd really want to try out your product. The way I see it is a person can test and retest all they want to and eventually something will fail. Noone can garauntee their product will work flawlessly. That is even more true with bbs. You cannot inspect each bb, it's just not cost effective. Instead you pull a certain amout of bbs from each batch and assume the others in the batch are just the same. That allows for some error.

People have a tendancy to resist change. Why change when the status quo can be maintained. But change is what has gotten us this far. It's called progress (the opposite, of course, being congress...). Sure, this may be stepping a bit toward paintball, but so what? Those who used to play paintball I'm sure loved the sport at one time. So why so down on it now? Because it's mainstream? Because of the elitist attitudes? Those reasons are understandable, but they have to do with the people involved with the sport and not the sport itself. So since paintball has an easy way to settle hit disputes, why not use it to it's potential in airsoft?

Again, hats off to you Blammonator, and to Grudge Tactical for being innovative. I would love to give your product a try.

Mavrick, that's hilarious. I was trying to take a drink of coffee when I read that. Coffee stains don't come out very well.

EDIT: Well, it seems as if a few posts have been removed. guess that statement to Mavrick makes no sense now.

[sventhewarrior]

I think that this idea opens up possibilities that no one has mentioned yet.

And that's the possibility of non-lethal hits. For example, in normal airsoft, if someone his hit in the hand, or grazed in the posterior, they are just as out as someone who takes it directly to the chest or head.

With these marker bbs, you could design new rules that would allow for injuries, limb hits, grazes, that sort of thing. You would be able to see where you were hit, and what sort of hit it was. A graze would probably make a distinctive "slash" shaped mark, assuming that it marked at all (I don't know enough about the product) and there could be rules for what that means in game terms.

For example, say you're playing and you get grazed in the leg. You see the shot and it's clearly identified as a graze (on your honor). You would then have to sit down for a set amount of time and wait, as though you were applying a field dressing to a superficial wound. Then you could keep playing.

Then, the same player later gets hit in the or the high shoulder. They would then have to stop using the limb that would hit, and if they didn't get a medic to treat the wound within a certain amount of time they would bleed to death, and normal rules for death would apply.

Now, of course, there would have to be very specific rules regarding what is or is not a limb. One way would be the seam of the person's shirt. If the mark is below where the sleeve meets the torso, it's a limb hit. If it's beyond that it's a torso hit and a kill. That sort of thing.

And it would still require the honor system. In fact, it would require it even more so, because people would have to be honest about where they were hit, especially if the mark later gets wiped off.

Now, I don't know if it would catch on. Probably not. But in milsim games where we really want to go for realism, this could potentially deliver that. Maybe not, but potentially.

So I say we should give this a try.

[Locutus]

Blammonator, you are basically asking our forum members to do product testing for you, for free. If you can't post, or share information about your product without insulting our members, whom you are asking to do you a favor, I will simply remove this thread and you can get some other community to do your free product testing for you.

I went ahead and cleaned up this thread, I won't do it again.

[Texx]

DRAMA!

If it works in my gun and doesn't cost more than my current BB, I'd be willing to use them. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[Zero]

@battlefield savior
Join Date: Sep 2007

These BBs aren't your parents and they don't claim to substitute for them.
If you aren't already grounded in deeply felt personal self-worth these BBs will not bring that to you.

They have however demonstrated that they settle arguments between honorable men very quickly over unfelt hits and near misses.

I simply can't see how anyone could allow a situation where they held a poor opinion of a friend because they were certain they hit them, while their friend was certain they were missed... and so whether it is said openly or in whispers, or kept back in one's thoughts, the notion that they know a cheat festers and spoils the joy of the game for them.

I'm not saying that honorable people will cheat, because they don't at all now, so why would the BB make the difference. At least we're on the same page with that, but what I am saying, is it appeals more to paintball players, and in my experience paintball players don't have as high morals as people that I know are seriously into airsoft. I'm sure there are a lot of morally sound paintballers, but from the people I've met, I wouldn't want them playing with me.


Please don't use any of our gearboxes, upgrade components, BBs or anything else we release this year if it makes you feel ethically challenged or morally ambiguous. I would hate to be the catalyst of your slow slide into spiritual decay and turpitude.

WHAT?



Umm hang on... You're 15, and have yourself been on for a year, but you know what the Ohio airsoft market wants?

First of all, when did I say I was an experienced player? I know I've been on here for a little over a year, and I know I don't know half of what someone like Fox knows. I was bringing up the correlation between newer players liking your product, and more experienced players being more skeptical.

Also, I said I think this isn't what the Ohio market wants, not I know. And me stating that is based on what others and myself have thought and stated previously about it being a big step towards paintball.


If you have legitimate skeptical comments cool.

I'm pretty sure all of my skeptical comments were legitimate...unless of course you know what I'm saying better than I do.


Good questions make the asker smarter by asking, and the answerer smarter by answering

I'm not against letting you be smarter, or myself for that matter, I don't know why you are bringing this up...


Honorable men learn to ask their own questions and get their own answers, not rehash things others ask because they think they look cool being contrary.

Ummm...yep, all I was doing was bringing up others comments in a better organized way so that you could possibly address them all at once. I didn't mean my comment to offend you, and I believe that you blew it all out of proportion.

One last thing, if you are going to create a product that you plan to sell, you should be expecting criticism and you shouldn't jump all over people for being skeptical of you're product... NIHM batteries for example, when they came out, people thought they weren't that good, now it is what most people use.


Good luck with your product.

[mr_kong]

DRAMA!

If it works in my gun and doesn't cost more than my current BB, I'd be willing to use them. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

The prices: http://www.grudgetactical.com/store/

$14.95 for 2000

[Texx]

I'd be willing to run a sample pack through my G36. Its not like my gearbox is suddenly going to explode and even if it does, I was meaning to upgrade that gun anyway. :D


$15/bag of 2000 doesn't seem bad compared to other specialty BBs out there. I suppose once production moves into full swing, availability of positive objective feedback, and increase of supply will bring that price down to more of a competitive nature with what's currently available.

I have enjoyed the thread thus far. :D

[Spectre]

Im glad to see that not everyone is seeing this as an attack on player honor then. As expressed in my post earlier, I don't think that this was ever the problem. Anyone who is willing to put time and effort into improving the sports playablity can not do it wrong in the first place. So, let us see how these will help evolve our community further.

[Donor]

I am not dishonorable but i do make mistakes and dont always know when im hit. Its not that im cheating its that im a little slow :). these bbs seem like they could help people like me that dont always know they have been hit to see a mark and know.

you should be expecting criticism and you shouldn't jump all over people for being skeptical of you're product... NIHM batteries for example, when they came out, people thought they weren't that good, now it is what most people use.
you should expect constructive criticism not people bad mouthing you and you product.

[Newkid]

I think the idea of these bbs is pretty cool. I'm looking forward to when you make them in a heavier weight. I am a sniper myself, and use .3g BBs. So, when you get around to making heavier BBs, I'll definitely buy some to try out. I like the venom and rage colors :D

[john]

Just because there is a marking bb does not mean airsoft will turn to paintball. Doesn't even mean you have to use them.

It just means you have to be tolerant to yet another aspect of the game.

In fact i think these would be more useful if everyone didn't use them. Or as tracers.

Different colors can simulate different calibers or at single only games. They can be good fun..... But i doubt airsoft will ever come to the point of using markers exclusively. We're holding out for some kind of reactive impact uniform that will designate a hit/wound/bleed out while being light and not relying on lasers.

I expect these to be as popular as glow bbs or bio bbs. Except with law enforcement and as someone else mentioned.. paintball. Will this allow me to take my aeg to a paintball field..? Could be fun really. key word fun.

[Mavrick]

Just because there is a marking bb does not mean airsoft will turn to paintball. Doesn't even mean you have to use them.

It just means you have to be tolerant to yet another aspect of the game.

In fact i think these would be more useful if everyone didn't use them. Or as tracers.

Different colors can simulate different calibers or at single only games. They can be good fun..... But i doubt airsoft will ever come to the point of using markers exclusively. We're holding out for some kind of reactive impact uniform that will designate a hit/wound/bleed out while being light and not relying on lasers.

I expect these to be as popular as glow bbs or bio bbs. Except with law enforcement and as someone else mentioned.. paintball. Will this allow me to take my aeg to a paintball field..? Could be fun really. key word fun.

What do you mean tolerant? If i dont use them, i dont want to play with someone does. Because these exist, Event hosts will have to list whether or not they are acceptable. I dont know what your talking about glow bbs and bios being the same. Bios dont do anything to any one else's gear. Glows only show where the bb is going, it doesnt leave a glowing mark.

[Darkstar]

[inflammatory content removed by admin]

That being said, I would be happy for the inclusion of such a product into the sport of airsoft. Honor does play a BIG part in the sport of airsoft, but there ARE cheaters, and we know it. Of course people often weed themselves out of the sport, but cheating in airsoft, as well as dishonor, exists. A product like this can go a long way to improving the sport, as well as assisting in competition style play, and also airsoft weapons training for police and law enforcement.

Contrary to what a lot of people have said here, the airsoft industry has been looking for a non-paintball marking solution for years. This product potentially meets that goal. And if it is successful, would definitely go a long way toward improving our sport.

While I do not forsee an instant change over to these types of BBs, possibly for the sake of cost, it is definitely a technology that is welcome in the sport of airsoft and I am extremely enthusiastic to give it a try! I anxiously await my sample and well post my impressions as soon as possible.

Darkstar out.

[john]

I clearly, said they would be as POPULAR as glow or bio bbs.

We know you don't want to get dirty. Tolerance for any foreign substance on your gear; is something you obviously don't have.

With the advent of recoil on your airsoft gun.. I think that a marking device brings you one step closer to simunition.. which works great for leo and the military. The above combined, provides a real contender for sims; as costs and danger are slightly above par. This could be good for airsoft in general not just airsofters. Fact is that it does help the sport when it comes to providing a realistic combat trainer.

Markers aren't going to help with cheating (save maybe in the winter). Its a tool that will help airsoft stay on par with what the rest of the CT market.

I would suggest lowering the price or pricing by the case.

Will they keep if stored? Do they needs stored a certain way?

It's true that it's up to the organizers to decide if they allow them at their events.. but it's also up to you whether you go or stay home. So mavericks point: packing up his toys and going home if people use them, is mute.

H

[Locutus]

I agree with John, I can see some use in a training environment. As for using marking BBs for playing airsoft, I personally wouldn't want to play at an event that allows these, but that is just me. If someone is not going to call a hit, then they can just as easily remove the tiny mark, or claim it was from a previous hit. So this would do absolutely nothing to prevent cheating. If cheating were to ever get so bad that I felt a solution was needed, then I probably just wouldn't play airsoft anymore.

While I do not forsee an instant change over to these types of BBs, possibly for the sake of cost, it is definitely a technology that is welcome in the sport of airsoft

It may be welcomed by some, but not I. Please don't speak for the entire sport of airsoft.

[Mavrick]

I clearly, said they would be as POPULAR as glow or bio bbs.

We know you don't want to get dirty. Tolerance for any foreign substance on your gear; is something you obviously don't have.

With the advent of recoil on your airsoft gun.. I think that a marking device brings you one step closer to simunition.. which works great for leo and the military. The above combined, provides a real contender for sims; as costs and danger are slightly above par. This could be good for airsoft in general not just airsofters. Fact is that it does help the sport when it comes to providing a realistic combat trainer.

Markers aren't going to help with cheating (save maybe in the winter). Its a tool that will help airsoft stay on par with what the rest of the CT market.

I would suggest lowering the price or pricing by the case.

Will they keep if stored? Do they needs stored a certain way?

It's true that it's up to the organizers to decide if they allow them at their events.. but it's also up to you whether you go or stay home. So mavericks point: packing up his toys and going home if people use them, is mute.

H

Thats my fault, i missed the "popular".

However, if you're going to put your personal stabs in, please spell my name correctly. Its not hard honestly.

I dont know what kind of hair is bothering you, but your persistence in saying that i dont want to get dirty is really starting to get to me.

Here are the things i've said i dont want on my gear

Paint -- Can stain
Silicone -- Lubricant, can stain
flour --- Mixed with sweat, turns into a paste, hardens, more work to get off.
marker bb's. -- While i havent seen them yet he's mentioned they are lubricant based...which lubricants can stain.

As for Mud, i never said it bothers me. I just rarely get it on me. Sure it gets on my knee pads and boots, but thats about it. I dont purposely go looking for mud. I'm also a tall skinny guy, i can crouch without having to lay down just fine. Sorry if it bothers you that i dont want to ruin my gear. I spend good money on it. While i acknowledge wear and tear; foreign substances that cause discoloring of expensive equipment not caused by myself does infact piss me off.

As for my point being "Mute" I dont understand. I think its perfectly applicable.

Event organizers have an obligation now. There are quite a few people that have made it clear that they do not want to be marked. If event organizers do not list acceptable bbs and someone does bring them, there will be alot of pissed off people. Also, Those same people attend alot of events, if an organizer decides that marker bbs are allowed, they run the risk of losing attendees. No event organizer wants to hear that. Less attendees = less props, less objectives, less field fees paid. Widowmaker will attest to that.(using as a nonbiased fact only)

[Darkstar]

I clearly, said they would be as POPULAR as glow or bio bbs..

Glow BB's arren't really very commonly used because so few people know how to use them properly and lack the tracer unit required to use them so. BIO bb's are much more popular, especially with eco-conscious parents. I forsee a BB that marks without leaving a mess as surpassing both.

We know you don't want to get dirty. Tolerance for any foreign substance on your gear; is something you obviously don't have.

From what I've read so far, these BB's don't seem messy at all. The tests will prove one way or another. If you don't want go get dirty, and you don't have tolerance for any foreign subsances on your gear, then why do you even bother playing airsoft. Honestly man, you're going to get dirt, dust, mud, sweat and other stuff all over you during a day of playing. I don't see what small impact a small marking BB is going to have. Many of the places we play at are also paintball parks, and it's not unusual for me and others to get old paint on my gear too. I just take it home and wash it. That's what the laundry is there for.

With the advent of recoil on your airsoft gun.. I think that a marking device brings you one step closer to simunition.. which works great for leo and the military. The above combined, provides a real contender for sims; as costs and danger are slightly above par.

Airsoft is already a serious competitor to Simunitions, however Sims are already much more dangerous than airsoft will ever be. Standard Simunitions have about 4 to 5 times the amount of force as a typical upgraded airsoft sniper rifle, and many Sims are even more powerful than that. If anything, I see airsoft replacing Simunitions as a safer alternative to LE/MIL training.

This could be good for airsoft in general not just airsofters.

Is that an oxymoron or a contradiction? It sounds as if it's being good and bad at the same time. lol.

Markers aren't going to help with cheating (save maybe in the winter). Its a tool that will help airsoft stay on par with what the rest of the CT market.

First sentence: You can't honestly say that they wouldn't help with cheating because you have no idea what the impact will be. It WILL help to deter cheaters, and will also help to clear up the "You're hit! - No I'm NOT!" issues. Overall that seems like a benefit to me. Second sentence: I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Seems like an incomplete sentence.

As for using marking BBs for playing airsoft, I personally wouldn't want to play at an event that allows these, but that is just me.

Being deterred from going to an airsoft event because of dry-marking BB's would indeed be a personal preference, however I don't see how the honest player would be effect either positively or negatively if they are truly honest and have nothing to hide. If these BB's are truly a dry-marking BB, I don't see any reason not to allow people to use them. Especially if they are not sticky, messy and not toxic.

The bottom line is that no one has tested these yet, so the verdict is still out. People passing judgement so soon without actually having seen the product is the point I was trying to make. People are so quick to dismiss ideas that it's not even funny. This tread is an example. Until there is an unbiased review (hopefully there will be many), I would advice people not to comment further, as any comments are merely speculation at best.

Darkstar out.

[Hm2Opdoc]

I have been reading this thread now for sometime and I am not looking into getting in a flame war. I know that I have asked for a test batch of these bb's to see how they work. Not only will I do a written review on the but I will film them being used. I will even film how hard it would be for this "Mark" to come off of gear and such. I think this might help as well to see if this "mark" will come off with ease and no stain or if it is something that is difficult to come off and leave a stain behind.

I also think that just about everything said here has been good for the producers of this product.

[Texx]

Enough of this already. :o

This isn't a debate about honor. The company was asking players if they would be interested in testing out some free samples for a new BB. If you aren't interested, then please don't draw this further away from topic.

And yes, while the original author asked for feedback, I don't think taking the discussion into philosophical debates as to honor vs. dishonor is really warranted.

From following this, the next stage is people flaming each other.

Closing up for now. Anyone else interested in helping the original author out, please contact him privately.

Thank you.