chazbot
08-28-2007, 12:30 AM
This was in another forum filled with MPEG lovers and Echo 1 fanboys. Enjoy.
Chazbot: Wait, are you saying that the M14 isn't an American rifle?
Guy 1: I had heard that it wasn't. IDK. I think I heard that in "Echo 1 vs CA" which I did not start.
Chazbot: Maybe you should wiki it, it's a popular rifle. Real steel that is.
Guy 2: Me and UwS went and looked at a bunch of thing to find the great great great grandfather of the m14, and there fore also finding the original design of the gun. The design of the M14 is polish or some sorta small country in europe.
Guy 1: ROFL!!!!!!!! And that is what I was thinking of! What sgt.Hartwig said.
Chazbot: What are you talking about? The M14 is derived from the M1 Garand, another American rifle invented in the mid 1920's to compete against the bolt-action M1903 Springfield (another American rifle, of completely different design).
It goes no further back than that. The short stroke rotating bolt action used in the M14 is derived from the American long stroke gas trap used in the M1 Garand. The long stroke rotating bolt action is an invention of John C. Garand in the early 1900's, so the action is American too. The concept of a bolt and breech system is German (a rather famous country) from 1830 or so, and the locked breech is a Mauser (German) invention.
So, I ask, what are you talking about?
Guy 3: The design of the Spring Field is not American.
I am looking this up (again) and will present the FACTS!
Guy 3: Model 1903. Still, the 1903's used so many design features from the German Mauser that the U.S. government paid royalties to Mauserwerke.
M16 = M14 = Garand = Spring Field = Krag & Mouser Features and design
Chazbot: How about no?
The rotating bolt of the M14 is derived from the M1 Garand. The M1 Garand is a completely new concept in weapons design, made by John C Garand, and is the first rifle in existence to use the long stroke rotating bolt action.
The M1903 was derived from the older bolt action K98's from Mauser, which is a German design. The M1903, since it used the Mauser's stripper clip locked breech loading system (among other things), and not the Krag-Jørgensen's spring follower, is closer to a Mauser than the M1892 (the previous rifle), despite the M1892's action, which is used by the M1903.
Aside from the M1903 preceeding the M1, there is no relation between the two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag-J%C3%B8rgensen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl07-e.htm
From the last one:
"The story of the "US Rifle, .30 caliber, M1903", otherwise known as a Springfield M1903, began late in XIX century, when US troops, engaged in the Spanish - American war found their bolt-action, .30 caliber Krags and .45 caliber single-shot Springfield "trap-doors" far inferior to the bolt-action Mausers, used by Mexican troops."
And here: http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl05-e.htm
"The story of the first semi-automatic rifle ever widely-adopted as a standard military arm began after the start of the First World War, when the inventor John C. Garand (Canadian, then living in USA) began to develop a semi-automatic (or self-loading) rifles."
All previous designs relied on manual bolts, and had no gas system for semi automatic action.
From: http://www.gunsworld.com/m1m14/m14_his_us.html
"The M14 is an evolution of the M1 rifle; in the design of the M14 many of the shortcomings of the M1 have been eradicated. The basic action of the M1 remains, but the troublesome eightround en bloc clip has gone."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory
"During the Spanish-American War, it was recognized that the Spanish Mauser, Model of 1893, exhibited characteristics superior to the "trapdoor" Springfield and Krag-Jørgensen rifles carried by the United States troops. On August 15, 1900, Springfield Armory completed an experimental magazine rifle which they believed to be an improvement over the Krag. They fashioned a clip loading magazine rifle in which the cartridges were contained within the stock, preventing damage to an otherwise exposed magazine. It was approved for production in 1903 hence the nickname "The Springfield '03"."
There is no "M1 = M1903" link, and you don't even explain your reasoning behind the M1903 = M1 link. Don't even get started on the M16, which uses direct gas impingement, not a gas trap, not a gas piston, and certainly not a short stroke action. There is no link (aside from the rotating bolt) between the M16 and the M14.
Using your notation: M16, M14 = M1, M1903 = K98, M1892 = Krag
Guy 3: Ok chazbot I'm not even going to read your long winded theory.
Fyi- Anyone can edit what Wikipeida says.
Chazbot: How about you read the non-wikipedia entries then? They support my position as well, and you dodged the question of "where is the link between the M1903 and the M1?"
I'll repeat: There is no "M1 = M1903" link, and you don't even explain your reasoning behind the M1903 = M1 link.
There's no theory here, it's simple history. Read up. At least I credit my sources. Where are yours? All my sources agree with the M1903 = K98, but where is the M1903 = M1 source?
Guy 3: k to simplify this once and for all.
The Chinese made fireworks very long ago, then they found out that they can use the powder to make rocket like fireworks.
The powder made the rocket go into the air and explode.
Later they started to make the first rifle design. (They didn't look like the rifle we see today, the rifle we see today, I don't know were that design came from)
There the M14's grandfather was made in China a very very long time ago.
If you want to prove me wrong please don't use Wikipedia.
Ok if you want to continue this conversation make a new topic about the origin of rifles, not here. I would be glade to continue and debate this all year :P
Chazbot: Man you're pulling this out of your can.
I already told you to ignore the wikipedia sources (considering that the bibliography for the articles quoted is the Library of Congress).
If you want to go like that, I can still say you are wrong since the first projectil was some caveman taking a piss in a strong wind. Or throwing a rock. Or maybe a monkey flinging his own poop. Afterall, it's something that a human does that imparts momentum onto a projectile.
And you still can't come up with the answer or source to "where is the link between the M1903 and the M1"? Is it that they were both invented by humans and fire bullets? Does that mean that the FNH P90 is derived from a booger blown out of some primate's nose?
This is freaking hilarious.
Guy 3: Want sources I will get them for you.
You WILL not dish a member of this forum. I don't care who or when. I admit you may be correct, since my main source has been Wiki where anyone can say whatever they want.
I am looking through your sources.
Chazbot: My post calls your ideas ridiculous, it's not calling you ridiculous.
Then he PM'd me saying that I "might be right, but let's just drop this".
Chazbot: Wait, are you saying that the M14 isn't an American rifle?
Guy 1: I had heard that it wasn't. IDK. I think I heard that in "Echo 1 vs CA" which I did not start.
Chazbot: Maybe you should wiki it, it's a popular rifle. Real steel that is.
Guy 2: Me and UwS went and looked at a bunch of thing to find the great great great grandfather of the m14, and there fore also finding the original design of the gun. The design of the M14 is polish or some sorta small country in europe.
Guy 1: ROFL!!!!!!!! And that is what I was thinking of! What sgt.Hartwig said.
Chazbot: What are you talking about? The M14 is derived from the M1 Garand, another American rifle invented in the mid 1920's to compete against the bolt-action M1903 Springfield (another American rifle, of completely different design).
It goes no further back than that. The short stroke rotating bolt action used in the M14 is derived from the American long stroke gas trap used in the M1 Garand. The long stroke rotating bolt action is an invention of John C. Garand in the early 1900's, so the action is American too. The concept of a bolt and breech system is German (a rather famous country) from 1830 or so, and the locked breech is a Mauser (German) invention.
So, I ask, what are you talking about?
Guy 3: The design of the Spring Field is not American.
I am looking this up (again) and will present the FACTS!
Guy 3: Model 1903. Still, the 1903's used so many design features from the German Mauser that the U.S. government paid royalties to Mauserwerke.
M16 = M14 = Garand = Spring Field = Krag & Mouser Features and design
Chazbot: How about no?
The rotating bolt of the M14 is derived from the M1 Garand. The M1 Garand is a completely new concept in weapons design, made by John C Garand, and is the first rifle in existence to use the long stroke rotating bolt action.
The M1903 was derived from the older bolt action K98's from Mauser, which is a German design. The M1903, since it used the Mauser's stripper clip locked breech loading system (among other things), and not the Krag-Jørgensen's spring follower, is closer to a Mauser than the M1892 (the previous rifle), despite the M1892's action, which is used by the M1903.
Aside from the M1903 preceeding the M1, there is no relation between the two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag-J%C3%B8rgensen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl07-e.htm
From the last one:
"The story of the "US Rifle, .30 caliber, M1903", otherwise known as a Springfield M1903, began late in XIX century, when US troops, engaged in the Spanish - American war found their bolt-action, .30 caliber Krags and .45 caliber single-shot Springfield "trap-doors" far inferior to the bolt-action Mausers, used by Mexican troops."
And here: http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl05-e.htm
"The story of the first semi-automatic rifle ever widely-adopted as a standard military arm began after the start of the First World War, when the inventor John C. Garand (Canadian, then living in USA) began to develop a semi-automatic (or self-loading) rifles."
All previous designs relied on manual bolts, and had no gas system for semi automatic action.
From: http://www.gunsworld.com/m1m14/m14_his_us.html
"The M14 is an evolution of the M1 rifle; in the design of the M14 many of the shortcomings of the M1 have been eradicated. The basic action of the M1 remains, but the troublesome eightround en bloc clip has gone."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory
"During the Spanish-American War, it was recognized that the Spanish Mauser, Model of 1893, exhibited characteristics superior to the "trapdoor" Springfield and Krag-Jørgensen rifles carried by the United States troops. On August 15, 1900, Springfield Armory completed an experimental magazine rifle which they believed to be an improvement over the Krag. They fashioned a clip loading magazine rifle in which the cartridges were contained within the stock, preventing damage to an otherwise exposed magazine. It was approved for production in 1903 hence the nickname "The Springfield '03"."
There is no "M1 = M1903" link, and you don't even explain your reasoning behind the M1903 = M1 link. Don't even get started on the M16, which uses direct gas impingement, not a gas trap, not a gas piston, and certainly not a short stroke action. There is no link (aside from the rotating bolt) between the M16 and the M14.
Using your notation: M16, M14 = M1, M1903 = K98, M1892 = Krag
Guy 3: Ok chazbot I'm not even going to read your long winded theory.
Fyi- Anyone can edit what Wikipeida says.
Chazbot: How about you read the non-wikipedia entries then? They support my position as well, and you dodged the question of "where is the link between the M1903 and the M1?"
I'll repeat: There is no "M1 = M1903" link, and you don't even explain your reasoning behind the M1903 = M1 link.
There's no theory here, it's simple history. Read up. At least I credit my sources. Where are yours? All my sources agree with the M1903 = K98, but where is the M1903 = M1 source?
Guy 3: k to simplify this once and for all.
The Chinese made fireworks very long ago, then they found out that they can use the powder to make rocket like fireworks.
The powder made the rocket go into the air and explode.
Later they started to make the first rifle design. (They didn't look like the rifle we see today, the rifle we see today, I don't know were that design came from)
There the M14's grandfather was made in China a very very long time ago.
If you want to prove me wrong please don't use Wikipedia.
Ok if you want to continue this conversation make a new topic about the origin of rifles, not here. I would be glade to continue and debate this all year :P
Chazbot: Man you're pulling this out of your can.
I already told you to ignore the wikipedia sources (considering that the bibliography for the articles quoted is the Library of Congress).
If you want to go like that, I can still say you are wrong since the first projectil was some caveman taking a piss in a strong wind. Or throwing a rock. Or maybe a monkey flinging his own poop. Afterall, it's something that a human does that imparts momentum onto a projectile.
And you still can't come up with the answer or source to "where is the link between the M1903 and the M1"? Is it that they were both invented by humans and fire bullets? Does that mean that the FNH P90 is derived from a booger blown out of some primate's nose?
This is freaking hilarious.
Guy 3: Want sources I will get them for you.
You WILL not dish a member of this forum. I don't care who or when. I admit you may be correct, since my main source has been Wiki where anyone can say whatever they want.
I am looking through your sources.
Chazbot: My post calls your ideas ridiculous, it's not calling you ridiculous.
Then he PM'd me saying that I "might be right, but let's just drop this".