Classic Army (V4) vs Tokyo Mauri

[Risk86]

I am a newb trying to get into the sport of airsoft. I have decided on the M4 for my first gun. The only problem is i am uncertain whether i should get the CA M4 or the TM M4. I know that the CA comes upgraded and with a hicap mag. But i have read that they can be unrelieable. I you have any suggested please post them on this forum.

[Scorpion]

personally i prefer the tokyo mauri M4 because of the powerful motor, and it's rock solid stability. yes you don't get much with the gun itself, but it is a far better starting rifle for newbs. i myself started with a TM M4 and right out of the box it was great fun. good luck and good hunting!

[stargate6]

I believe the new CA High Speed/High Torque motor is more powerful than TM's EG1000...since CA stopped using TM's EG1000 in their guns. Torque wise, the EG700 is more powerful than the EG1000.

Classic Army performed a different "pre-upgrade" on their new Armalites. You get more of a "durability" upgrade rather than a power upgrade. The CA Armalites shoot around 300fps (not 350 or 400). They come with a reinforced mechbox, polycarbonate piston, polycarbonate unidirection pistonhead, new steel gears, new motor, and probably other parts like the hop-up.

Both my brother and I own a CA Armalite. We've both skrimished with it, and so far no problems. It's range is about the same as a stock TM's range. I personally feel the gun is reliable and won't break. It's just a like a TM gun, reliable until you put in a stronger spring. Doesn't mean the gun will become unreliable with a stronger spring, just has a greater potential.

CA v TM Carbine:
1) Metal Body, a very nice metal body too
2) Armalite trademarks
3) Reinforced one-piece outer barrel
4) NO FOREGRIP wobble AT ALL! (Also a bad thing, takes two ppl to remove a foregip for battery installation...the O-ring is that strong)
5) Better internals (yet to be confirmed but generally are)
6) Reinforced v2 vs. TM's non-reinforced v2 mechbox
7) Metal carrying handle ($50 if you decide to put a metal body on TM)
8) You can use a 9.6v on Armalites stock, nice ROF (actually they recommend 12v but that's insane, stick to 8.4v or 9.6v).
9) Possible warrenty if you buy from Armalite
10) Comes with a low-noise end grip on motor plate...makes the firing sound softer with less of that "sewing" machine sound.
11) Firing sound is NOT like CA's previous M16/M4s (the squeaky sound), rather a soft popping sound.

But remember, range wise...they perform the same really. The velocity between the two is about the same. Since there have not been any reports on any problems with any armalites (that I've seen), I think it's safe to buy one. Most problems with CA's previous guns happened within a month or 1-2 skrimishes.

Your call... do some more research...hold the two guns (I hate the feel of TM M16s/M4s guns v. CA guns M16s/M4s)...maybe shoot them.

[Risk86]

If I were to get a CA M4 should i get it upgraded?

Risk

[ArmyHummer]

I would just reccomend the TM one myself. You can upgrade it as you please, and save a bit of money most of the time with a TM. CA does have benefits, but it has more drawbacks. And about the CA upgrading, its up to YOU to figure out what YOU want, if you want it to shoot faster then 300 fps, then upgrade. If not, dont. It really depends on your style of play, how you play, and what you like best.

[DarkJew]

dude get a TM. i know like 3 people who got m4 tacticals and worked for 2 weeks tops.

one of the kids broke in 3 days and he just never ended up fixing it just because he coulda bought another aeg for just as much because he pretty much had to replace almost half the parts with tm ones. it was a mess.

trust me its not worth the risk for 350 bucks. get a TM and your pretty much garenteed a good gun. if you do end up getting a CA or any gun for that matter make sure you get a warrenty.

[keeper36rm]

Well the TM is a better choice for a newbie, but after he gains enough experience I think he might regret not choosing the CA m15. CA m15's are so much nicer than TM, and much more realistic. He'll end up upgraded his aeg anyways probably, whether it's a TM or a CA. At least the CA has a good metal body and armalite trademarks.

With the CA m15's you get a lot more value for the money then you do with the Tm's. You can't even show off the TM m4a1 with that hideous grey plastic body. They have a plastic grey carry handle and black screws, that is not right.

[stargate6]

Originally posted by DarkJew
dude get a TM. i know like 3 people who got m4 tacticals and worked for 2 weeks tops.

one of the kids broke in 3 days and he just never ended up fixing it just because he coulda bought another aeg for just as much because he pretty much had to replace almost half the parts with tm ones. it was a mess.

trust me its not worth the risk for 350 bucks. get a TM and your pretty much garenteed a good gun. if you do end up getting a CA or any gun for that matter make sure you get a warrenty.

Your giving him the WRONG information. You're talking about a totally different CA gun. The Armalites are completely different. Everything that was bad in those CA M16-A3s/ M4-A1s/ M4T is now fixed in the M15 series. In my opinion, those first few revisions of the M16/M4 series guns were beta. Here is how I see it:
CA M16/M4 version1 = Beta gun
CA M16/M4 version2 = Beta gun with patch 2.0
CA M16/M4 version3 = Beta gun with patch 3.0
CA M15 series = Final, after no more patches were required.

The M16/M4 line was leading up to the M15 line. So don't compare those two guns. Their internals and externals ARE different. The metal body is not the same, the grips are not the same, the foregrips are not the same, as well as the internals.

I recommend the Armalites. The TM M4 looks and feels like a toy, period (IMO). As far as reliability goes, there is nothing wrong with the Armalites...and yes it's too early to be for certain but it looks promising.

TM did not do a good job with the M16/M4. The only guns with barrel wobble, non-reinforced gearbox, grayish plastic fragile bodies, two piece barrel non-reinforced, and just the general feel of it.

And if you're worried about anything, remember, Armalite offers warrenty on them. Combat Depot is selling them for $300. Or you can order them from an oversea retailer, for around $310 shipped.

I recommend the Armalites.

[ross]

I'm not a newbie and I swear by TM AEGs. =P

I have seen to many problems with CA guns to offer CA the benefit of the doubt (although their MP5 are curiously historically more reliable). I will say that CA has really improved the look of their M16 and that their new fiber reinforced plastic is of high quality. However it is in my opinion that they should have refined their M16 before it was even released as the version 1. It took them over a year and 4 versions to refine the CA M16 to what it is today.

The TM M16 design is over 5 years old and has not significantly changed from the day it was released. This has to say something about TM engineering and Quality Control. I agree that the TMs suffer from quirks such as barrel wobble, but like any gun on the market this is remedied with aftermarket parts.

I will say that you initially get more for your money when buying Classic Army as the added value of the metal body and one-piece barrel is in my opinion its greatest incentive. But if you want consistency and quality I would stick with TM... that is until I witness otherwise from the new CA M16s.

-Ross
HammerMods.com

[drgnslr]

Originally posted by stargate6
NO FOREGRIP wobble AT ALL! (Also a bad thing, takes two ppl to remove a foregip for battery installation...the O-ring is that strong)

Check this out foregrip tool (http://www.tapco.com/product_information.asp?number=TOOL0901&back=yes&dept=195&last=21)

[stargate6]

Hey Ross, I thought you liked the CA guns... considering you spend more time with my CA M16-A3 than I did :D For those of you who don't know, I had numerous problems with my CA M16-A3 version 2. By the time I sold it, very few internals remained Classic Army.

After I sold my CA M16-A3, I was deciding on a new gun (it had to be an M16 though). Was really close to buying a TM M16-A3 (by Ross's, Blade's, and other's recommendatoin), but after I held the TM M16-A2 again...I knew I wanted a CA gun. A lot people say "Just get a TM and you can put a metal body later..." but I knew if I was to buy a TM, I would NEVER spend $200 just for a metal body. And really...for $200 you can simply buy a whole new fully assembled Systema mechbox with a m120 setup. And I did some research on the new Armalites (emailed CA numerously, talked to people who had it, etc...) and decided to get a CA Armalite.

At a skrimish game, I had my M15-A4 accidently dropped from a table...one of the foregrips popped out (don't know how). Three men tried to push the O-ring down, it barely moved 1mm. I guess people complained to CA that their previoius M16s had a weak O-ring spring.
Well now the spring is too strong. I had to remove the front sight set to install the popped out foregrip. It also takes two people to install the battery on my brother's M15-A4 Carbine, someone has to push down as hard as they possibly can while the other person quickly pulls the grip out. It's a hassle I'll admit, but it's nice not having any foregrip wobble at all.

Edit:
I guess that tool could help with the foregrip removal/installation. But since the spring is always compressed, it'll wear down with time.

[ross]

Stargate6,

Ugh, don't remind me :(

I have never in my career had such a problematic gun... that includes Turtle's CA M16 murder/hackjob and Marcus's destruction of his CA off the roof of his car while driving. (both repaired and running perfectly now)... my guess is just bad luck.

In CA's defense I haven't heard anything but good things with the new CA M16 vesion, if it wasn't for diehard CA users like yourself we may be missing out on CA best gun yet... keep us informed.

-Ross
HammerMods.com

[BountyHunter]

I think that the TM versions are made better plus they do have a better motor than the CA guns . This past weekend I used a brand new sr-16m-4 TM version for the first time and I liked it alot . I have noticed with the CA guns that the front end assembly ( barrel assembly and front grips ) become very loose on the CA guns I am hoping that my TM holds better than those others .

[stargate6]

Originally posted by BountyHunter
I think that the TM versions are made better plus they do have a better motor than the CA guns . This past weekend I used a brand new sr-16m-4 TM version for the first time and I liked it alot . I have noticed with the CA guns that the front end assembly ( barrel assembly and front grips ) become very loose on the CA guns I am hoping that my TM holds better than those others .

How is the TM M4 ANY better than the new CA Armalites? There has NOT been any reports of ANY problems with the CA Armalites. Not only is the METAL better than TM's plastic externally, but the internals are nevertheless better too (until proven otherwise).

Do you have any test data or evidence to support your "fact" that TM EG1000 is better than the CA High-Speed/High-Torque motor? As far as I know, CA decided to REPLACE the EG1000 in their guns with the new CA motor. So how exactly did you decide the EG1000 is better?

The front sight becomes loose on all M16 guns when used with a sling, not just CA. It is easily tightened with a hex wrench.

You state your opinions as facts with no evidence to support any of it.

[Fox]

Actully... Unless you want the 'Colt M16' trade marks...

Go with the armorlite.

Even if something internally needs replaced... your going to do it all any ways with a TM.

The only problem you might run into is the M203, if you want one. You wont be able to attach it to the barrel with out some modification to the barrel.

And to go around that problem... you could just get one that goes on a RIS.

[Shifty]

It depends a lot on what you want. Either a quick fix or a well made gun that will last you a while. I personally have handled all of the previous version of Classic Army M4s and M16s, and given this, I cannot recommend CA M16 series guns to anyone.

I saw one of the Classic Army "better than EG1000" motors, and I must say that they are not. Unless they are redesigned from the earlier models, and I highly doubt that they are, they are crap. I bought a CA M4 that I was gonna use as a loner/rental gun. I sold it off instead of renting it, and a game later I recieved reports that the guns motor had stopped functioning, among other things that happened to the gun.

Metal reciever construction is just sub par, even compared to CAs pre-production metal bodies that they made to fit TM M4s. This again hold true if they have not reinforced or strengthened them over the previous versions.

Given the problematic nature of the previous versions, both what i've heard and what i've witnessed, I cannot recommend any Classic Army gun over any Tokyo Marui gun.

[stargate6]

Originally posted by Loki
It depends a lot on what you want. Either a quick fix or a well made gun that will last you a while. I personally have handled all of the previous version of Classic Army M4s and M16s, and given this, I cannot recommend CA M16 series guns to anyone.

I saw one of the Classic Army "better than EG1000" motors, and I must say that they are not. Unless they are redesigned from the earlier models, and I highly doubt that they are, they are crap. I bought a CA M4 that I was gonna use as a loner/rental gun. I sold it off instead of renting it, and a game later I recieved reports that the guns motor had stopped functioning, among other things that happened to the gun.

Metal reciever construction is just sub par, even compared to CAs pre-production metal bodies that they made to fit TM M4s. This again hold true if they have not reinforced or strengthened them over the previous versions.

Given the problematic nature of the previous versions, both what i've heard and what i've witnessed, I cannot recommend any Classic Army gun over any Tokyo Marui gun.

Loki,
The M15s are nothing like the previous CA M16s/M4s. And the motor in them is new, it comes in their M15s series only. My previous CA M16-A3 had a TM EG1000 motor in it and my current M15 has the new CA hi-speed/hi-torque motor, I must say that I like the new CA motor better. The rate of fire is better, even on a 8.4v. The motor sounds better, and reaction time is good. Although I can't say which one is better based on data (since I lack the tools for any detailed test) but the CA motor is not crap (and there's a reason why it replaced the EG1000, which originally replaced the crappy CA1000 motor.)

From what I heard on #airsoft @ undernet, the metal body used on the M15s is the same as their aftermarket metal body. As we know, the metal body previously on their guns was of worse quality than their aftermarket body. Also, having owned a version 2 CA m16, I can say the metal body is definitely better.

And Loki, you can't really justify your recommendation since the two guns are different. The M15s have been out since May, so far...no reports of problems. Most problems in the previous CAs came forth within a few weeks/days.

Having owned a CA M16-A3 rev.2, I can definitely say the two guns are different.
Externally:
Foregrips, Pistol grip, rear stock, metal body, foregrip metal ring are all different.

Internally,
Gears, piston, pistonhead, spring, motor, motor plate, hop-up, etc.. are all different two.

My point... the two guns (CA M16s and CA M15s) are different guns. Different externals and different internals. So far, no problems with M15. So, it's too early to predict anything negative about the gun...rather you should predict that the gun is well made.

CA made a big decision to downgrade the velocity from 400fps to 300fps. They changed all "troublesome" parts, with better ones.

Having played and held a TM M16-A2...I would never buy it. The gun is a joke (in my opinion), it looks and feels like a toy. Sure it's reliable, but that's cause it's running on >280fps. Stick a 170% spring in there, the gun is no longer reliable. That's what CA did with their previous versions, they stuck a 400fps spring in there. If you decide to upgrade a TM M16-A2 to 400fps...you need to change the bushings, gears, spring, gearbox, etc... for a reliable upgrade (not a minimum one with only bushings and spring). Now that upgrade would cost over $200!

I'm not saying CA ARmalites are flawless, just that they're worth the money.

[Shifty]

Yes, I can justify my recommendation based on previous versions. Until I see the newer version in person, logic dictates that I assume that it is no better than the previous versions.

Honestly, whether you realize it or not, you have a biased opinion(I mean, come on, you ever said you own one of the CA M-15s). I, on the other hand, have no bias towards either product, because I have owned neither of them. I have shot and played around with both, but owned neiter.

On another note, I never said the TM M16 was better(and am not claiming that you said I did), but given the choice between that, and the CA M16 series, I chose the Tokyo Marui any day of the week.

The EG1000 part: I don't think CA replaced the TM motor with a "better" motor, I think they replaced it because it was cheaper and easier to make their own motors than it is to buy TM motors. I personally have owned three guns with EG1000 motors(and note one of them ever failed me) and i've had one gun that had a CA motor(that took a giant crap on me), this allows me to say that unless I got a lemon, the CA motors are crap. If, by chance I got a lemon, then at the very least CA's quality control is crap(and you can't argue witht hat one, given CA's track record).

Oh, and if you really want to convince people, let them find out on their own. You can't argue with people and point out "facts" to make them believe anything. TM has a tried and true record, and every TM AEG that i've ever owned has been nothing less than a good gun, CA has a very bad track record, and as I said before, it is prefectly logical to believe that these new CA guns will be no different than the old ones.

I am NOT saying that these guns are crap, but as I said two previous times in this post, logic dictates that we assume that these new ones are no different from the old.

I'm sure that if DumboRAT ever gets around to reading this, he will justify my arguments.

On a final note, one's personal opinion do not qualify as "facts". The fact that no problems have been reported doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any.

[stargate6]

I was saying that your recommendation is based on Classic Army's M16-A3/M4A1/M4t line. I'm pointing out that the CA M16-A3 is not the same the CA M15-A4, even if they look similar.

I've owned a CA M16-A3, I agree it had crappy internals. Now I own a CA M15-A4, and I'm saying it's nothing like the CA M16-A3.

Whatever past experience you had with the M16-A3/M4A1/M4T, it hardly applies to the Armalites, because they are so different internally/externally. You're basing a recommendation on a gun that you've yet to even hold and shoot. Believe me, the CA M16-A3 and CA M15-A4 even shoot and sound differently.

I speak from experience, my opinions are not biased. After I sold my crappy CA M16-A3 (wasn't really CA's fault - gun was great as stock, problems I had with it resulted from Systema/Guarder parts being interchanged), I still decided to buy a M15-A4 over the TM M16-A2. I'm happy with my M15-A4; I've skrimished with it, dropped it, etc.. still works great.

Cheaper and easier motors does not mean they're worse than TM's EG1000, if anything...they could be better.

And if you know anything about what was crappy in the two previous versions, you'd know that they've been resolved in this current M15-A4. Instead of repeating myself, I've stated how they resolved them in replies somewhere above. I don't just "assume" stuff, I do research and ask around (including emailing CA).

How can people find out on their own if people like you recommend against them trying it, when you have barely any experience with the gun at hand (CA M15-A4, not CA M16-A3).

The M15-A4 is not just another revision, it's a whole new gun. It's different externally and internally. It's build differently, with different parts.

Like I said, the gun is probably not flawless...but TM certainly is not either. And if anything does break, it is certainly cheaper to fix than the cost of upgrading a TM M16-A2 to 400fps reliably. And then the cost of a metal body, one-piece reinforced barrel, metal carrying handle, etc....

This is going to be another endless arguement where we don't see eye to eye, why don't we just wait and see (hold off any positive/negative recommendations until than).

[Texx]

Come on guys, this isn't a race to se who can "one-up" each other. Now I want you guys to shake hands....There we go, we're friends now....

Star,
I think you have to realize that while CA is providing a "better" product than previous designs, there will always remain those who are loyal TM collectors and those who have heard of previous failures and problems, and don't want to risk a rifle that may not be as user friendly out-of-the-box as TM guns are.

Also, as we discussed on the old AO thread long ago, you cannot simply judge an entire rifle line based on one individual model. This goes for TM and CA. There are those hobbyists out there, which I have dealt with, that continue to hold the CA guns in the same esteem or lower as ICS/AE and Hapdong.

Loki,
I am equally skeptical of a "new design." The data provided by hobbyists on the older line of CA M16 variants cast a very large shadow, which is difficult to shake. However, I think in the interest of resolving this endemic of CA/TM Bashing, we should look at this from a fresh perspective.

CA is a new company
CA weapons offer a competitive product with many bonuses to the traditional TM designs.
CA is striving to improve upon itself.
The availability of newer designs may help to spur CA Quality control into higher standards of workmanship and design.


Both,
Is it safe to assume that CA has the potential to offer a better product and that further revisions will make it competitive with TM? To me, the CA offers the experienced user a wonderful platform to build upon. I remain skeptical, but will only remain so until I have read a thorough and detailed article on the new CA Armalites and finally, own one myself to verify.

Also, I really hate it when someone posts a TM vs. CA thread. It really tens to bring out the worst in everyone.

Tex

[Ninj4]

I own a CA M15A4 Carbine, and I have to say that it is nothing like they're older versions...which were...actually..crap. I am going to send out my M15 tomorrow for repairs, but that was my fault...trying to install a PDI 170 spring for the first time..isn't as easy as it seems..heh heh..anywho...i borrowed someone's TM M4 at the CPX game last Saturday...It shot great...considering that it was upgraded, but it literally felt like crap. A toy....well..compared to the M15...yeah. Anywho...bottom line is...CA M15A4's aren't crap...unlike their...well..crappy...M16A3...and what not... I can say though, when I did fire the TM M4, the ROF was noticably slower, and the motor even jammed up on me. Not once...but twice. Maybe it was because it was upgraded to about 386fps...but....my CA M15 shot stock at about 365 and had no problems.

[spewy]

I have NEVER had a problem with my TM. However, I bought a mag for my TM and its brand was CA. The CA mag (hi-mag) was so much hassel that it stays in my closet at matches. All I got out of the mag was dry shots every 3 or 4 shots. Thats all I know about it.

[keeper36rm]

Well I'm betting it's your gun that didn't like the CA mag, the mag is probably fine. Have you tested that mag in other guns?

[spewy]

No I havnt. That may be the problem...not sure.

[Shifty]

The original point of this thread was to establish and evaluate differences between the Classic Army "M15A4 Carbine" and the TM M4A1 Carbine. We have discussed this pretty much to the extent that it can be discussed.

On top of this, Stargate and I have agreed to cease the argument and just let time tell, and instead of letting bygons be bygons, another individual(who will remain nameless) has decided to attempt to either A: Start another mild Flame war, or B: Discuss something which cannot be discussed further, I have now decided that this thread no longer serves a useful purpose.

So, in turn, I dub this thread LOCKED!