The Future of Automobiles.

[Athiel0]

I was reading through the thread, http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=127591#post127591

And i noticed Battlepriests post which read,
"You need to buy a beater gas friendly car. People who love thier big engines and big vehicles will soon HAVE to give them up, or make more money to cover the cost.

If my bussiness' life weren't so dependant on entry fee's I'd say you could have free admission for your first trip... but I need those entry fees or I have to close up shop. (Unless I got some more regular investors)

I hope to see you some day, but I understand if I don't.

Mine won't be the first or only bussiness to have to close up shop because of the greed of the oil companies."

And i wanted to reply, but that was not the thread to do it in.

I am one of the big engine lovers that BP spoke of. And although i dont use a chrysler 4wd as my daily driver i work on them constantly.

One of the things that interests me most is what all of us are going to have to do when gas becomes a thing of the past. I love my Trans Am but spending 40 bucks to go for a drive to the store, is more than im willing to shell out.

So, whats the possible future?

Well, we all have heard of hybrids. A marriage of a gas engine and an electric motor. Your electric motor drives you around in town, or any speeds under 25 (in certain models) and your gas engine takes over when needed. Some hybrids are even known to get better gas milage driving through town than driving on the highway.

But, Hybrids are normaly small, and even the larger SUV hybrids have relitivly low performance.

Pure Electric. FUN stuff. 0-60 in 3.2 seconds out of a car weiging almost 3000 pounds. Useing a gigantic laptop battery and averaging 300 miles on a full (6 hour) charge. This is one of the more extreme examples, but there are a lot of fun things going on with electric cars nowadays.

Hydrogen. (personal favorite) Maybe you all have heard the buzz on hydrogen being used as a fuel. But maybe youve also wondered how that will be? Hydrogen is combustable, can we just stick it in our gas tanks? How else can we use it?

A. Darn near. There are some things that need to be changed, but if we so choose, yes, you can use hydrogen in an internal compustion engine. Heres the fun part, the exaust, IS WATER.

Drinkable water at that. (if the system is clean, blah blah blah, bottom line, if for some reason you get a hydrogen car, dont drink the water, i was just proving a point.)

B. Electric fuel. Electrolocis (spelling?) using hydrogen to power electric motors. Again the exaust, you guessed it, water.

There are many others, but my time is short. I always get excited about this subject, and id really like for people, who may know as much or more than me to share some things. Opinions, facts, maybe you are even working with Alternate Fuels right now.

I start my Alternate Fuels classes in 4 weeks and i would really like o hear what everyone has to say and think about this. I may even have more info later if people are interested.

Thanks for reading.

[strikers_blade]

http://www.hybridcars.com/
That is a good start.
you can also read some stuff in popular mechanics about plug-in cars (also called PHEV)....

[BattlePriest]

I used to work at Motorola's Automotive Electronics Group. I worked there for 8 years.

In that time I got to drive a purely electric car (ran on batteries) around the parking lot, I even got to see a purely electric Indy Car that they made for promotion purposes. It went about 120 miles and hour, but only for about 40 mintues before needing a re-charge.

I also got to drive a Hydrogen fuel cell car. Bear in mind this was in the late 90's. This was the kind you spoke of that used a hyrdrogen fuel cell to power electric motors. It could easily run 70 on the highway and one fully charged hydrogen fuel cell lasted for many hundreds of miles. It utilized the same kind of fuel cells used in the space shuttles electrical power generator systems.

Motorola and the car maker they were working with had a functioning Hydrogen car way back in 1996. But all development stopped short after the oil companies began a smear campaign against the technology, halting government funding of the project. They used lies and subterfuge to make the goverment think they were little H-bombs waiting to detroy a whole city if you sneezed wrong around them. This of course was far from the case. Hydrogen fuel cells work entirely different than Hydrogen Bombs... not even close. The other excuses given by the oil companies was that there was no infrastructure in place to refuel Hydrogen cells. Then they proceeded to lobby against the building of such an infrastructure.

Even with this, in the very late 1990's the City of Chicago purchased and put into service two test models of Hydrogen Powered city busses. Even had Mayor Daley shown on video drinking the water that came out of their exhaust pipe.

If it were not for the lobbying and intrests of the big oil companies, there would be completely pollution free, affordable and good handling hydrogen cars on the market by now.

I forsee a change in the administration, and the intervention of the public in the form of votes to effect a change that will get us all on a path to a better fuel source and a country free of the bonds of oil addiction. As much as I may agree with SOME Republican interests on SOME matters, They're being in the pocket of the oil companies is hurting our country, economically, environmentally, and socially.

[Rctaylor]

As opinionated as it is, and as politically winged the incoming responses may be, I agree completely with BattlePriest.


While alternative fuels such as BioDiesel may help for a bit, it is not an efficient source of energy compared to the massive needs out country is looking for.

The good news, computers and technology is growing at an exponential rate (which brings up other issues...) and our search for an alternative fuel-source (I say source as it could be an oil replacement, an oil hybrid, or an extreme all-electric case... among others) quickens every day. From estimates I've heard, it will only take 20 years before household computer systems will exceed the capabilities of a human brain.


Yet another 'unfortunately'. Our economy isn't driven by the urge to reduce pollution and conserve resources. Economies are driven by greed, profit, and persuasion.

[Locutus]

Can we make streets and plastic out of Hydrogen? :)

[strikers_blade]

why streets and plastics? we will have hydrogen jetpack and corn-made bags soon :D

[BattlePriest]

Can we make streets and plastic out of Hydrogen? :)

Lol

No we can't, but then the amount of oil consumed by streets and plastic I don't think is as great as the amount we put in our cars on a daily basis. Just think... if we stop needing gasoline for our cars, how cheap plastic and road construction could become? Heh.. yeah right.. that would happen.

[TheBanker]

I believe the original question was, "What do we do when the oil dries up?" Right now, when you buy a can opener at Walmart, that item wasn't produced in your town. It was made in China, then it was driven to a distribution center, then it was flown to a warehouse in the US, then driven to your store. As fuel costs rise, either mega-corporations will drop the idea of centralized manufacturing in favor of smaller regional manufacturing, or local businesses will jump on the opportunity to compete with mega-corporations by starting their own local manufacturing.

Car-owning consumers (us) will complain a lot, but we won't do anything. As prices rise, consumer fuel purchases don't decline at all; in fact, they rise in many situations. We talk the talk, but we're not willing to walk the walk. We'll pay whatever they charge.

However, if corporations localize manufacturing, that will represent a HUGE decrease in total oil consumption, which may solve the problem right there.

But that's just my hunch; I could be wrong.

[strikers_blade]

Amen banker.

[BattlePriest]

I believe the original question was, "What do we do when the oil dries up?"

That may have been the question asked, however, I believe our goal should be to prevent, or at least delay... the oil from drying up, rather than wait for it to happen. Proactive is better than reactive.

A switch to non oil fuel sources in transportation would be one way, arguably the best way, to slow the consumption of oil in the world.

I realize though that things as they are... in this world of consumerism and consumptionism (I just made up that word... isn't it great) this may not happen until it truely IS too late.

Of course another way would be for those who work in cities to live in cities, and those who work in suburbs to live in suburbs... but I know that will never happen. :)

[Locutus]

As far as individual drivers go, aside from those on a truely tight budget, I think the effects of gas prices on one's budget is largely blown out of proportion.

For example, my Dodge Ram 4X4 Quad Cab Offroad 5.9L gets about 12 mpg. If I drive an avg of 1,000 miles a month, at $3.25 a gallon it will cost me $271 a month in gas. If I drove something more fuel efficent that got around 30 mpg, it would cost me about $108 a month in gas.

So in this extreme example, my potential savings on a monthly basis is only about $160. In most cases, your savings between a car that gets "good" gas mileage and one that doesn't is going to be less than $100 a month. I guess for some, saving $100~ a month is worth driving some dinky little import instead of what you really would like to drive. I pay more than that for my Satellite TV. :)

[strikers_blade]

Locutus, do you realize that many players can afford an ECHO gun for such savings?!?! :D
just kidding.

[BattlePriest]

As far as individual drivers go, aside from those on a truely tight budget, I think the effects of gas prices on one's budget is largely blown out of proportion.

For example, my Dodge Ram 4X4 Quad Cab Offroad 5.9L gets about 12 mpg. If I drive an avg of 1,000 miles a month, at $3.25 a gallon it will cost me $271 a month in gas. If I drove something more fuel efficent that got around 30 mpg, it would cost me about $108 a month in gas.

So in this extreme example, my potential savings on a monthly basis is only about $160. In most cases, your savings between a car that gets "good" gas mileage and one that doesn't is going to be less than $100 a month. I guess for some, saving $100~ a month is worth driving some dinky little import instead of what you really would like to drive. I pay more than that for my Satellite TV. :)

What your forgetting though is that many many many people do not make the kind of money you make.

I make about 20 thousand a year (about 2 times the "official" poverty level)... and even though I walk to work, gas prices still put a big crunch on my budget.

Now think of the poor slobs who work a minimum wage part time job.. or several minimum wage part time jobs and have to drive 15 or more miles to work to get to those jobs. There are MANY people like this in this country. One of the 4-6 hours they work each day goes to getting there and back.

That is where the fuel crunch hits the hardest, on those who are already in a bad place. They must consign themselves to the fact that if they cannot find work near home, or near a bus stop, they must write off 20 percent of their daily wage just to transportation.

[Locutus]

Locutus, do you realize that many players can afford an ECHO gun for such savings?!?! :D
just kidding.


hmmm.... since you put it that way, where do I sign up for the lower gas prices/more efficent cars movement?? :)

lol, seriously though, people spend more than that going out to eat. Gas prices are still relatively cheap, they are just higher than what we are used to.

However, I am all for MARKET DRIVEN alternative fuel R&D.


That is where the fuel crunch hits the hardest, on those who are already in a bad place. They must consign themselves to the fact that if they cannot find work near home, or near a bus stop, they must write off 20 percent of their daily wage just to transportation.

True, but that could be said about almost every expense in their life, so why single out fuel? They are probably having to write off 20% of their daily wage to eat too.

[strikers_blade]

In fact, it is a good thing gas is going up. Those who can afford it will keep doing their things until they can't afford it anymore. those who can't afford it now will find other alternative. There are simply too many kids with nice cars out there. I took the bus for years before I could afford a car...and I was almost 20yrs old by that time!!!!

Beside, as the majority of the US population is not rich, their attitude toward this price increase will have no choice but to affect the whole US economy so we better all adapt to this change or we will all crush.

p.s. Battlepriest. Can I ask you why you open the TAPSS center, don't tell you thought it would give you some nice income money!?!?

[BattlePriest]

p.s. Battlepriest. Can I ask you why you open the TAPSS center, don't tell you thought it would give you some nice income money!?!?

I opened it because I love practical shooting. I did not intend for it to make me big bucks. From the beginning it was meant only to support itself. I thought that it would be easy to make back the cost of rent and materials per month, or at least make it all even out from slow months to good months.

I mean... my rent is only 425 and includes lights and electric (to a point).

With the amount of interest I thought I had in Ohio, I thought sure I would be able to make it work out and cover that cost. But I think I was mislead as to the level of interest locally. I know now... to late...that several of those who are very interested live too far away to justify the gas cost to come to my events.

I saved my cash for many months to be able to partially cover start up costs. Cash I could have spent on many other things.. but it was Practical Shooting that held my interest most.

As it turns out, unless I am surprised and the attendance on June 9th is stellar, I will have to close, and perhaps sell much of my airsoft guns and gear to get out the hole.

[TheBanker]

I agree with Locutus. We piss and moan when gas goes up 5 cents, but that's really a trivial number. Even 50 cents barely makes a dent. The difference between $2.75/gallon and $3.25/gallon, for a 15 gallon tank, is $7.50. That's LESS than the price of most lunches, less than a bag of BBs, less than that M120 spring we just upgraded to, and certainly less than that 7th AEG we just bought.

Battlepriest, I don't think manufacturers are concerned with oil consumption. They just want cheap fuel. Just providing an alternative fuel won't get them to change, except maybe on principle. You have to show them how they'll make more money by spending less on fuel. Right now, I don't think there's anything cheaper than gasoline. Sure, there are fuels that are cheap on the front end (solar, wind, etc.) but the cost to get those up and running is significant. Oil refining is fairly cheap however, or at least it has become so through decades of practice.

For the record, I walk to work most days, and when I don't, I only have to drive half a mile. I'm all for alternative fuels, and I'll go one further and say that we need a new type of engine alltogether. However, I want to let the market choose if, and when, to make the switch, not government.

Whoops...got political. Back to the point, which is that manufacturing will go local in response to higher fuel prices.

[Fox]

If it were not for the lobbying and intrests of the big oil companies, there would be completely pollution free, affordable and good handling hydrogen cars on the market by now.

I forsee a change in the administration, and the intervention of the public in the form of votes to effect a change that will get us all on a path to a better fuel source and a country free of the bonds of oil addiction. As much as I may agree with SOME Republican interests on SOME matters, They're being in the pocket of the oil companies is hurting our country, economically, environmentally, and socially.

Absolute ignorance. However, I guess it's bliss because you have an industry to blame instead of looking to the 'helpful government', like the EPA.

Why? Pretty easy and I'll break it down step by step. However, this is going to take a lot, so if you're not prepared to read stop now.

Starting off at the top "If it were not for the lobbying and intrests of the big oil companies, there would be completely pollution free, affordable and good handling hydrogen cars on the market by now."

This statement is absolutely wrong. There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to start out. First off, lets start at hydrogen as a fuel. The only companies with the current infrastructure to carry such a fuel - liquid or Gas hydrogen would be, the "Big Oil Companies". However, most people don't even know what companies I'm refering to when I say that. My thought of big oil companies, and yours are extremely different. You think of Shell, Citgo, BP, etc. I think of United Refineries, Ergon, etc. The people who own the pipe lines, the people who actually do In-state refining. Yes, Shell, Citgo, BP, etc. are all very large companies. Yes, they do have alot of networks out there which would need to be tapped into.

However, they are not the ones you have to worry about per-say. And surprisingly enough, the 'big oil companies' you think of, barely make anything off the Gasoline and/Or diesel fuel that you actually purchase at the pump. At most, it's a lucky bi-product they sell. It comes off the first layer of refining, thusly very easy to produce if the right equipment is used. (An entirely different topic I will get onto later.) These companies will be needed because Hydrogen will have to be sold somewhere. These companies, are not lobbying against the use of Hydrogen at all, because they are the only ones that have the equipment currently to ship such products. (Look at the designs for Gen5 LNG super tankers... they're designed to be able to keep Liquid Hydrogen super chilled.) Believe me, Oil companies do not make their fortunes off of gas or diesel. Alot of distrubtors, such as my own family's company are getting out of it because it's a pain in the ***.

So you ask then, why are they charging so much for it? Well, lets break down how its actually priced and where, things need to be changed.

Taxes: You pay, in ohio roughly 56 cents per a gallon of gasoline. I'm sure if we just cut those, and prices were down to you know... 2.00, people wouldn't be *****ing as much, or at all for that matter. Remember, it flows down hill too. So the companies who have to supply the Gas station, Also have to pay taxes on their own vehicals and gasoline. So if the government really wanted to get out of this crunch, they would simply relieve taxes.

-Ohio is currently #2 on the highest taxes for gas. Next to the United State of Kalifornia

The EPA:
Oh yes, the blood sucking bastards who want to 'protect' you from the 'industrial pollution.' No doubt the EPA has done good in the past. Super Fund sites and putting some decent limits on things that need to be. However, in some cases they are just that - blood sucking bastards. The amount of money oil companies have to spend to comply with unrealistic EPA limits is crazy.

The new 'Ultra Low Sulfer' diesel fuel? Yeah, impossible to transport. Seriously, with current technology and epa standards it is impossible to ship from the refinery to a terminal via pipeline. It builds up too much sulfer in the piple line from left over fuel / oil in it, and thusly doesn't meet standards any more. Let alone, going into a truck that is used for other things. (By the way, we actually have 2 spare trailers that we use exclusively for transporting it, at nearly 50,000$ a pop - you think that doesn't boost prices? And we're not even in the fuel industry very much.)

Ontop of setting unrealistic standards, gasoline has to be produced per a regional area. This is to meet 'Out door conditions to provide less pollution.' What does this do? Makes each regional refinery blend about 77 different types of gasoline depending on where you are at. Youngstown Ohio's comes majority from Pittsburgh area. Where as Cleveland has their own blend, same with Cinci who comes with the ohio River area. Columbus' is piped in from northern ohio, or trucked down. What does this mean? Simple:

Refineries who already have old, outdated technology (Will get to later) are having to stress out their manufacturing capability to provide multiple types of blends per region. Which means what? Less gas is refined and more is trashed because it cannot be used due to EPA standards for that region. In turn? It bumps up the price you pay for absolutely no reason since the EPA standards per-region are rarely met due to, once again, trasporting the gas.

Old / Out Dated refineries - once again, thank you EPA. Last time the EPA issued an air permit for a new refinery was 1972.

I dunno, you tell me, think we've had some new technology from 30 years ago? Seriously. What the hell people, yes, the current refineries are from over 30 years ago if not more. Yes, pipes can and will be replaced, how ever our population has gone up, the number of people driving as gone up, and the amount of fuel we consume has gone up. However, the technology exists that can refine cleaner, better fuel and can get more out of a barrel of oil. But, we cannot do this. We have to ship it in from other countries (Alot of what florida gets.) however, sticking it on a tanker and sending it +import costs, etc. Raises the prices up to market price if not higher.

EPA Shipping regulations. The amount of money companies have to spend getting permits, liceanses, etc. for shipping gasoline is increadible. Let alone the insurance costs per a truck, etc. Then, post 9/11, you have Home land security breathing down a trucking companies neck as well. All hazardous materials must be fenced in, all truck drivers must have a background check (equivelent to buying a Class III firearm.) etc. What does htis mean? Higher prices. You have to pay drivers MUCH more, trucks are MUCH more expensive, new facilities must be bought or built. (We spent over 3.5 million on our post 9/11 facility to make it EPA and DHS approved.)

Alternitive fuels and the EPA. This is great, really. Nuclear power is by far the cleanest most effective type of energy producing plant that the world possibly has right now. However, we have not built a new nuclear power plant since the 70's. Don't bring up chernoble or 3 mile island. 3 Mile island wasn't even a disaster. Chernoble was because the Russians thought it was a great idea to have an exposed GRAPHITE reactor. Unfortunately, it's not a good idea. There is no emergency shut off like, light water reactors in the United States and around the world. Generation 3 nuclear reactors are melt down proof. They use water as a medium between uranium and conductors. So, if the reactor over heats, the water evaporates, and the reaction stops. Pretty easy concept right? Generation 4, a sand based one by the chinese is impossible to even over heat. However the United States government, specifically the EPA is long tracking the OK of the design - scheduled for somewhere between 2025 and 2050.

'Super lines and the EPA'. Next generation technology that is supposed to replace existing powerlines and pipelines to accomidate our growing infrastructore. The super line is - in concept - a liquid hydrogen filled 3 meter dia pipe line that is covered in copper cables. What does this mean? You have a pipeline that is some where in the vacinity if -100 degrees F, wrapped in copper cables that transmit electricity. Ok, what does this mean? You can transport both hydrogen and electricity at extremely low cost. As well, unlike todays current infrastructure for electricity, there would be little to no resistance. Today, about 40% of all power is lost in transmission lines. Speaking of tranmission lines, every one remembers the great NE blackout from a few years ago... Oh yeah, we haven't built a new transmission line in 20 years, thank you, EPA. The EPA is once again stalling this because they are afraid it's installation might distrupt the ground. - It's being burried between 185 feet and 300 feet deep.

Ok, 'nuff about the EPA. Onto speculators!

Yes, Oil is bought and sold on speculation. Which is extremely wrong for any market economy, such as the one in the United States most of us live in. What does this mean? You are paying for oil prices that speculators 'predict' the oil will cost to pump, ship and sell, 30 to 45 days from now. Unfortunately, they are rarely right on when prices should go up. Most of the time they cause a fake bubble in price, and this bubble doesn't seem to want to pop. We have not had a shortage of crude oil in at least 15 years. Anyone who says there is not enough in the market is full of ****, end of story. Remember post-katrina everyone was going nuts? Yeah, ok 9 refineries got shut down. That hurts, prices will go up a bit, however there are reserve stocks. However, only 2 drilling platforms were damanged by the hurricane, and 3 days of piping was cut short because of it. That DOES NOT mean people have to PANIC. So, prices went up - and are staying up - for no reason.

However, this is not the big oil companies. Speculators are just market watchers who predict this. As well, big oil companies aren't exactly making money from it either - unless its a universal company, such as shell and BP. Let me explain:

A company drills the oil, and sells it to a transporter. The transporter then ships it to a refinery who buys it from the transportation company. The refinery then refines it, splits it up, and sells it to multiple other companies depending on what they want to do with it. (I.e. Base oils, heavy oils, fuel oils, gasoline, etc. Each grade of refining is different.)

Thusly, the guy who is drilling it might get paid 5$ a barrel. The guy who SHIPS it, is making the most, since the refinery has to buy it on the speculation price. That price then gets passed on to you, the consumer. However, the mega-corperations such as Royal Dutch Shell, does all of those. Drill, Ship, Refine. Thusly their profit margin = huge. However, that does not mean they are to blame specifically, especially in the price of gasoline. Shell makes the majority of their money on heavy oils and greases. I know this for a fact, because I used to be tied in with shell, and still am to a point. Gasoline is a bi-product. They actually make more money selling Cigarittes then they do gas. (Per unit.)

The people who *should* be *****ing? Steel mills, manufactures, etc. We have some special blended grease that we sell to Timkin... yeah, 76$ a pound. They buy about 20,000lbs at a time. You figure for this stuff... 9lbs a gallon? Now thats expensive.

Now, onto BioDiesel, and 'organic' fuels, oh so loved, right?

Waste of time. To measure everything in energy units, lets say 1 gallon of pure gasoline = 1 energy unit. To make one gallon of Ethonal it takes about 1.5 energy units. So you are actually causing MORE pollution then saving gasoline. As well, it's terribly expensive to make. Biodiesel is a joke as well, most older engines won't run on it period. Plus, it will never make EPA fuel standards for ultra-low sulfer. So.. its good for new off road equipment? Very small market and something I wouldn't worry about too much. As well, expensive to produce and somewhat wasteful.

The EPA is pushing it a little bit more, however with out the proper refineries we can never make biodiesel or anything else effective to use, cost wise. You will end up paying about 5$ a gallon for gasoline then. Oh yes, the mandatory porition of gasoline that is ethonal = drives up your price per gallon.

Next up, the international debockle that is Russia.

So, middle east has the biggest oil reserves known right?

Wrong.

Russia. However, they only have the infrastructure for west of the Ural mountains to drill and pipe oil from. This means, they only have access to the 6th largest oil reserve known. However, East of the Ural mounts in northern siberia and towards the coast line lays the largest untapped oil reserve ever. However, since they decided to build 76,000 nuclear weapons in the cold war, instead of one major highway... well, theres not jack **** over there. Thusly, we cannot reach it yet. As well, with the political leadership that is currently in some of the oil producing countries, it's bad news. Don't believe me? Look at the Sakhalin Island project. It's only one of multiple efforts to tap into areas in eastern Russia.

I'm going to be rather blunt here..

Chaves, needs shot. I'm not trying to be mean, however I am not a fan of having a Facist dictator who is sitting ontop of the 4th largest known and tapped reserve of oil. As well, close to our border. (Takes about 3 days from there, to Florida or New orleans, vs. 13 from Saudia Arabia. Which means.. fuel prices = would go down, if we have someone smart there.)

So the current state of world politics of who is incontrol of where, is bad news for how much you pay at the pump. As well, we're still fighting the rements of the cold war.

Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter. Politicians these days are so full of ****, just as much as when clinton was in office. NAFTA may be a good thing for alot of places - I will agree. However, the oil agreements under NAFTA are absolutely terrible for the United States. About 40% of all domestically pumped oil is refined and given to Japan in this trade agreement.

Why? I honestly don't know. I've never seen any logic behind the agreement besides to make Japan happy. As well, lets go back to the EPA now.

Ok, so the whole thing about 'Oh you'll hurt the wild life if you drill in alaska!' Give me a break. The companies planning on drilling in Alaska have submitted designs of their wells there. It's a 16 foot deep 16 inch pipe under ground, with a 4 foot by 4 foot White box above. Construction would take place durring the Winter months not to disrupt animal life.

I dunno, but a 4x4 box doesn't sound bad to me. Given, theres always risks of leaks, etc. However nothing like Pluto bay.

Thusly once again, the EPA probably adds about 2.00$ onto a gallon of gasoline.

Onto the development of hydrogen cars.

As locutus said, it needs to be Market driven. Having the government come in and say 'You need to be driving hydrogen cars in 10 years!" is a very bad thing. Due to the fact, it would completely **** everyone. And if anything, Car companies need to push the development of it even more. Oil companies - specifically on the fuel side - will adapt when these cars come out. However, at the current moment there is no reason to go through and retrofit every gas station with a hydrogen tank, and start buying hydrogen tankers. Although this process would take about 10 years, the bulk of it would only take 3-4 years to do. So once Hydrogen cars become realistic alternitives to gas powered, you will see the oil industry change.

However, it is not the oil industries fault that people do not want to give up their cars. As well, Electric powered cars are an absolute joke right now. It's actually WORST for the environmnet if you drive an electric car then as gas powered one. Why? We do not have a proper way to dispose of 1500lbs of batteries every 5 to 7 years. As well, the amount of energy it requires to power them is retarded. Just like Al Gore's carbon return system, yes of each house had one of them the amount of carbon in the air would actually go up. Why? Because it makes a standard house use 20x more energy. The amount of energy to charge an electic car is absolutely retarded. And a Hybrid is nothing more then a bandaid. That type of engine will never have enough power to do anything work like with the vehical besides go from point A to point B. (Which is good for some people, however anyone with a yard wants something a bit more powerful.) As well, Hybrids are terribly hard to manfuacture, and expensive.

We currently use fossile fuels to power our electrical generators. So if we're just using mroe electricity to power our cars, we're just using more fossile fuels. So either way, it's a bad idea.

Hydrogen is a very good idea, however I don't see the first production cars for another 10 years or so. Not because of the oil industry, it's because the lack of motivation to develope them. Our oil supply is good for at least another 50 to 100 years, if not more. Given, I support phasing out oil for other fuels, but there is not a risk of 'Running out of Oil.'

Don't blame the mega corperations, they're out to make money yes, however who is not? They employ hundreds of thousands of employees at very decent wages for where they are located at. They're goal is to make money for their stockholders, who in turn employe people as well. Yes, they make money, however they are not the ones that raise your prices or make your wallet hurt. It may look like it, however theres alot of behind the scenes things that you do not know about.

I could go on for a long while more, and if people want to continue to debate this I will. Alot of people won't agree with my statements, however I doubt there is someone who is more hands on and involved with the oil industry and behind the scenes then me, on this forum.

Cheers
Fox

[Athiel0]

For the record Fox, and the admins/mods may not want you to do it here, but i would like to hear more about it.

[Slaya360]

Hybrids, electric, hydrogen...

What about the air car. It runs on compressed air and apparently it will be made into a hybrid which will be able to drive from LA to New York on one tank of gas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4
http://theaircar.com/
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7000/

[BattlePriest]

Fox, while your post was a good read, your decision to go straight to insulting me before discussion is annoying.

I am far from ignorant, I may not have years of experience working within the oil industry, but I am far from ingnorant.

You I see are quite intelligent, though I saw several cases within your post of rampant conjecture. Though I am not about to take your bait and get into a heated argument over this.

As I said, 10 years ago, there was a viable hydrogen car ready for trials and production. this means that if they began then, the construction of the fueling infrastucture, which as you said would most likely have been done in conjunction with gas stations... then we WOULD have had Hydrogen cars on the road by now. It WAS pressure from oil companies, I don't care which companies it was, but it WAS... that prevented that move towards hyrdrogen cars.

I do not expect you to understand me or those with my opinions especially if you make money off of gasoline in any way.

It would be like me expecting a tobbaconist to understand or support the new no smoking laws.

Oh and... I COMPLETELY agree with you about all issues with the EPA... they're a bunch of tards.... really they are. All your statements about them I agree with. The funny thing is I live right across the street from the EPA building in Cincinnati, and I swear 90 percent of them drive large 8 cylinder SUVs and none of them carpool. All the times I've crossed their parking lot on the way to main campus, I've made notice that not one of them drives a hybrid.

Doesn't seem they care thing one about the environment if they can't even make such a simple sacrifice to help the environment. They seem nothing more than yet another self supporting government agency.

Anyway... As I said Fox, your post was an interesting read. Thanks for the information.

[Wraith]

You know what though, the rising price of gas affects more than just drivers. Electricity is produced using oil. Farmers use gasoline for various reasons. The rising price of gas is going to hit everyone at more places than just the pumps. Oil or by products of oil is used in more products than a person would even think. I used to work for Oceaneering International where we did ALOT of work for oil companies, including surveying. (Using side scan sonar and other methods to detect pockets of oil below the ocean floor.) Every one of the surveyors we talked to told us we have enough oil to last us around 50 years. That was 5 years ago and since then I've heard that scientists are saying there's plenty of oil to last hundreds of years. Who do you believe? The guy in the field that is actually taking the data and processing it, or the guy who sits in a lab somewhere and interprets the data?
Seems to me the oil companies are putting their faith in the surveyors since the prices keep going up. And they are saying it's because of increasing demand. Has the demand really went up that much? Unless there was a huge population explosion in the last few months, I doubt it. So back to the original question... what DO we do when gas is a thing of the past?
I know there are all kinds of possibilities for an alternative fuel. I also know there are pros and cons to each one. But think about this... I can take a 9 volt battery and split water back to it's hydrogen and oxygen state. Anyone can. The more current you run through the water channel, the more water molucules get split. Simple science. And we already have the technology to seperate oxygen from hydrogen. We already have the tech. to compress gasses which would need to be done to push the hydrogen through a combustion system. And..oh yeah, we have already proven we can contain an explosion and harness it's energy to make it work for us. The cars we drive prove that. Granted hydrogen is highly explosive, but so what? Noone is saying you would have to jam 50 lbs of compressed hydrogen into a combustion tube and detonate it. It can be regulated just like the amount of fuel being dumped into the cylinders of a combustion motor is regulated in your vehicles. Now, I'm not a genius or even close to being one, and I can figure that out. Do you really believe that those people who ARE geniuses and working on the problem of alternative fuels DON'T?
The technology already exists to ween us off oil products. So why aren't we switching over to alternatives? For many many years world economy has been dependent on oil. Simply put, to stop using oil right now would destroy world economy. And I know there will be some who disagree with that. Well, talk to an economist. Hydrogen motors have existed for several years. But until oil supplies hit a critical level, noone is going to worry about switching to hydrogen engines. " They're too dangerous!" or "we are still in the testing phase." will be likely responses to why there isn't a push for more hydrogen vehicles. And as far as those "hybrid" vehicles... they are still using gasoline. Hmm... now we went from trying to find an alternative to just cutting down on the amount used. Prolongs oil supplies right? Yep, it also keeps the oil companies alive longer. It keeps world economy alive a while longer. But that is it, just delaying the inevitable.
So what do we do? Really and truely what CAN we do?

[Fox]

Fox, while your post was a good read, your decision to go straight to insulting me before discussion is annoying.

I am far from ignorant, I may not have years of experience working within the oil industry, but I am far from ingnorant.


Sorry, didn't mean to be so directly insulting. Just most of the times when I go off like that its mostly because the who I'm attempting to explain it to really isn't worth my time. Some examples are like... well, I was blamed for 9/11, and being in Iraq right now at certian times. So, my appologies.


As I said, 10 years ago, there was a viable hydrogen car ready for trials and production. this means that if they began then, the construction of the fueling infrastucture, which as you said would most likely have been done in conjunction with gas stations... then we WOULD have had Hydrogen cars on the road by now. It WAS pressure from oil companies, I don't care which companies it was, but it WAS... that prevented that move towards hyrdrogen cars.


This goes to the limit of my information, but the most recent Viable hydrogen engine came from BMW about 3 years ago. However they've only made a handful of test models. The way I understand the industry is once there are hydrogen cars out there, you will see hydrogen stations. Its the same as anything else, what would push an industry into investing into a market if theres nothing in the market? With the exception of government pursed.

My take on hydrogen cars right now is it will take a government push to get the program off the ground. Tax incentives for car companies (or regulations) and the gasoline industries to go hydrogen. Once this happens, about 5 years later the tax incentives will drop off, and people will slowly convert to hydrogen. Lets look at it from the stand point of Adverage Bob. He drives his car everyday, buys gas, doesn't understand anything, and goes on with his life: Why would he go to a hydrogen car? Even if we started to push hydrogen now, just putting in the infrastructure would take 3 to 5 years. It is not worth companies times to put in millions - if not billions - if dollars in infrastructre for something that just isn't being produced yet.

So if anything, I would get on the car companies right now. Get them to make working viable models. Cheap, effective cars. If the car costs 300,000$ it's not worth the time to make it. We need to get the cars down into the 20,000$ market or lower preferably.

See what I'm saying? You can blame the oil companies, however hydrogen cars are just simply too rare and expensive right now to consider putting the infrastructure in. To change words around real quick and perhaps in another light...

Would you put up a pistol event if the only pistols were 900$ western arms custom guns?

[Texx]

I think its best if we pool all of our oil woes together and just find one person to blame for it. Sure, it's immature and irresponsible and unfair, but having to spend less on airsoft because a tank of gas for my truck is now $60 instead of $40 just pisses me right the hell off. Sure I could save money by buying a more fuel efficient car, but who is the government to tell me about efficiency?

There are lots of alternatives to using gasoline and other oil-based fuels. The problem is the car companies are not giving us those alternatives because it would cost them money to develop them.

WE need a cheap solution to the oil issues right now. I think that could be addresses with some low-cost bio engineering.

There are thousands of homeless people nationwide. We could begin to courier items from city to city via homeless person. Its not like they have anything else to do and it temporarily addresses one city's homeless issues.

The nation is also full of abandoned pets, stray dogs and cats, and neglected animals. I propose we harness those abandoned animals by running dog and cat sleds of goods between cities. This would be easy - harness each of the dogs together and put a cat out front. The dogs would chase the cat, thereby pulling the sled.

There is also concern for our aquatic friends at places like Sea World and other such Sea-themed amusement parks. If a dolphion can be trained to jump through a hoop, he can surely be trained to flip his tail on a crank to generate electricity. With all the captive dolphins and whales in the United states, we could install turbines in their tanks that feeds off the water moved with their splashing and diving and their incessant "ack-ack-ack--eet-eet-eet.." Damned dolphins thing they're so smart... put the lazy little bastards to work, we'll see how smart they are....

Finally, we have the problem of our nation's youth and video game violence. There is just too much of both. I propose we end Youth Video Game Violence by outlawing procreation or increasing the cost of childcare so that parents will think twice about raising kids and allowing them to learn about life from violent video games. Today's youth are also lazy and ignorant, so we should require video games to be educational and violent.

You see my Little Pony prancing around the magic forest? Well not anymore, My Little Pony has a job delivering tuna to the dolphin turbines. And if you want to get multiple headshots in your FPS game, you must first balance this equation of bullets versus momentum divided by splatter.

And airsoft is so violent. Why couldn't sides replicate the UN where nothing is actually done and the member countries secretly fund the enemy's side by trading oil for money to buy chemical weapons.... A shot never need be fired, except for the enemy while he is executing his political rivals...

That's my take on the oil thing...

[BattlePriest]

I see the problem here (relating to hydro cars).

It's the same problem every teenager in the middle to lower class has when he turns driving age. You need a car to be able to get a job, but you need a job to be able to buy a car.

Fuel creation and distribution needs cars in production and on the street to justify creating a hydrogen infrastucture. And car companies need a hydrogen infrastructure to be able to justify putting their designs into prodcution.

SOMEONE has to give, or the governent needs to get off their collective asses and give them both a push... somehow... otherwise were stuck on the downward spiral till we hit bottom in a bad way.

[Athiel0]

You know what though, the rising price of gas affects more than just drivers. Electricity is produced using oil. Farmers use gasoline for various reasons. The rising price of gas is going to hit everyone at more places than just the pumps. Oil or by products of oil is used in more products than a person would even think. I used to work for Oceaneering International where we did ALOT of work for oil companies, including surveying. (Using side scan sonar and other methods to detect pockets of oil below the ocean floor.) Every one of the surveyors we talked to told us we have enough oil to last us around 50 years. That was 5 years ago and since then I've heard that scientists are saying there's plenty of oil to last hundreds of years. Who do you believe? The guy in the field that is actually taking the data and processing it, or the guy who sits in a lab somewhere and interprets the data?
Seems to me the oil companies are putting their faith in the surveyors since the prices keep going up. And they are saying it's because of increasing demand. Has the demand really went up that much? Unless there was a huge population explosion in the last few months, I doubt it. So back to the original question... what DO we do when gas is a thing of the past?
I know there are all kinds of possibilities for an alternative fuel. I also know there are pros and cons to each one. But think about this... I can take a 9 volt battery and split water back to it's hydrogen and oxygen state. Anyone can. The more current you run through the water channel, the more water molucules get split. Simple science. And we already have the technology to seperate oxygen from hydrogen. We already have the tech. to compress gasses which would need to be done to push the hydrogen through a combustion system. And..oh yeah, we have already proven we can contain an explosion and harness it's energy to make it work for us. The cars we drive prove that. Granted hydrogen is highly explosive, but so what? Noone is saying you would have to jam 50 lbs of compressed hydrogen into a combustion tube and detonate it. It can be regulated just like the amount of fuel being dumped into the cylinders of a combustion motor is regulated in your vehicles. Now, I'm not a genius or even close to being one, and I can figure that out. Do you really believe that those people who ARE geniuses and working on the problem of alternative fuels DON'T?
The technology already exists to ween us off oil products. So why aren't we switching over to alternatives? For many many years world economy has been dependent on oil. Simply put, to stop using oil right now would destroy world economy. And I know there will be some who disagree with that. Well, talk to an economist. Hydrogen motors have existed for several years. But until oil supplies hit a critical level, noone is going to worry about switching to hydrogen engines. " They're too dangerous!" or "we are still in the testing phase." will be likely responses to why there isn't a push for more hydrogen vehicles. And as far as those "hybrid" vehicles... they are still using gasoline. Hmm... now we went from trying to find an alternative to just cutting down on the amount used. Prolongs oil supplies right? Yep, it also keeps the oil companies alive longer. It keeps world economy alive a while longer. But that is it, just delaying the inevitable.
So what do we do? Really and truely what CAN we do?

Ok, hydrogen engines, are simply a converted gasoline engine, this is where i was going with the whole "what about my beautiful Pontiac Trans Am?" the same hydrogen other vehicles would be using to power electric motors, you could put in your gas tank and use in your internal combustion engine, thus saving the beautiful muscle cars, (like Miyagi's chevelle) and every other vehicle you or anyone else may have a personal attachment too.

The majority of the development with hydrogen is using it to power an electric motor. When you put the hydrogen into your vehicle, the electrolics (again spelling?) begins powering the electric motor, or better yet motors. Having one motor per wheel would be such a benifit in so many ways im litterly getting excited just thinking about it. Power, handeling, acceleration, just to name a few. Ever heard of the traction control system? Its complete junk. I dont care what brand of car you have. VW, BMW, General Motors, all of them had countless problems with the system. If you had one power source for each wheel you would have darn near complete control over the stability of the vehicle. Ever get stuck in the mud or snow or something because only one of your wheels will turn? Thats because of a differential that is needed to go around a corner. If there is no differential, there is no reason that both wheels, or all wheels, cant be moving the car. This wont eliminate the problem of getting stuck completely but you know what im saying.

Back to the modern hydrogen fuel cell. What it is basicly, is a battery that you constantly put acid in. They used to make batteries that you replaced the acid in and they would last forever. My family farm uses a 1955 Chevy 6500 box truck (beautiful truck btw, and i dont even like trucks) and it has the origional battery, because we replace the acid so often.

Hybrids. Not a new technology by far. Trains have been hybrids ever since they did away with steam engines. Not for the effiency mind you, but for the sheer power it takes to move something that big. Hybrids are a big step, wether anyone likes it or not. Not to mention the cost of maintenince goes down on the gasoline enigne in the vehicle. An electric motor, may need new brushes, maybe even a new coil, but not for many many miles. A. because they're quite efficent so theres less unneeded stress on it. B. because they aren't used as often, since the engine takes over after certain speeds.

Dont get me wrong guys, im somewhat well versed in this area. Not as much as BP and Fox, but i do know possibly more than the average person, i just like to discuss it, and keep it fresh in peoples minds. Who knows, maybe someone here will come up with the next great thing in autmobiles. (hydrogen airsoft tank;) )

OH BTW The "air car" is a lie. perpetual motion? I think not, if the guy is lying about that he could also be lying about running on air. Its probably more of a gas like C02, or another gas with such properties. Hes been very secritive about the design (aka he wont tell anyone anything about it) and refuses to let anyone near the cars. What you saw on camera was as close as anyone has ever gotten to them, i believe the guy is just looking to make money off investors.

Thats just my little pepeev about this whole situation. Not to put anyone down.

Keep discussing, If for no other reason than to inform the people who read this.

[gmaximus]

Back to the modern hydrogen fuel cell. What it is basicly, is a battery that you constantly put acid in. They used to make batteries that you replaced the acid in and they would last forever. My family farm uses a 1955 Chevy 6500 box truck (beautiful truck btw, and i dont even like trucks) and it has the origional battery, because we replace the acid so often.

Maybe you're confusing fuel cells with batteries? They're totally different things. A fuel cell isn't something that is 'charged' or 'filed' or whatever, it's just a mechanism that makes an electric current by combining hydrogen and oxygen.


OH BTW The "air car" is a lie. perpetual motion? I think not, if the guy is lying about that he could also be lying about running on air. Its probably more of a gas like C02, or another gas with such properties. Hes been very secritive about the design (aka he wont tell anyone anything about it) and refuses to let anyone near the cars. What you saw on camera was as close as anyone has ever gotten to them, i believe the guy is just looking to make money off investors.


The air car is real, however the 'perpetual motion' statement is a big f-up by Future Car's producers. I yelled at the TV when I heard them say that. Google 'air car perpetual motion' and you will get more info about it.

--

As far as hybrids go, I think it's alright as a stepping stone but it isn't a good long term solution. As stated above, there is potentially going to be a lot of battery waste to deal with. I really doubt most hybrid buyers realize they will have to replace all the batteries in a few years.. let alone weigh the cost-benefit of spending $3-4k more on a car when that money could just as easily go toward fueling a larger, more powerful, but 'less efficient' car for a few years.

[Athiel0]

Acid in a battery creates a charge, because of a chemical reaction. (acid) Hydrogen fuel cells create a charge because of a chemical reaction. (hydrogen). Um..... sounds the same to me. In fact in my intro to alt fuels class thats how it was explained to me.

The air car. Well, i have heard from some people who have talked with the guy personaly. (advantage of going to the harvard of automotive schools) This was before the discovery channel show. I shouldnt have said anything, because what i heard was hearsay.

Hybrid batteries are made to be servicable, as well as recycleable. I dont remember the specific type they are but my school has been servicing and building hybrids for like 11 years now (it used to be part of they High performance devision, now its its own Alt. Fuels classes) and hasent had to despose of any batteries as of yet. (my automatics teacher also teaches alt. fuels, and i asked him today)

Hybrids also help the environment. Dont get me wrong, im a hotrodder to the core, but if i can do anything to keep the world safe for my kids, im going to do it.

[Mavrick]

unless you can get me a motor that can power my tranny and differential up to its 157mph, get me 300ish HP, oh, and make that affordable to everyone, then i'm not into it, I'll stick with my Premium Only ZX. And current hydrogen cars are around the 100k range. How many years will it cost you to take your Cavalier and spend 80k worth of gas to justify the cost of hydrogen.

I read recently that there was a big deposit in the atlantic ocean, however due to treaties with various countries that i cant remember right now, one being with china we cant touch it.

Fox i agree with you. Although oil takes many many many years to create, if the scientists are accurate in the age of the earth, i believe there is alot more out there than what we have discovered. Ppl thought the discovery in Pennsylvania was the best they'd ever seen until the not so "crazy" guy finally struck it rich in Texas that made Pennsylvania look like a baby pool.

Your points are great, i like the amount of detail and research that went into it, however it comes down to the fact that someone is pocketing the money. Where its going? who knows, maybe its paying off the aliens in earth dollars so they wont attack us(i'm kidding). But delemas causing prices to soar, i dont believe it, excuses excuses. We've all done it in our line of work at one point or another. "Im sorry your food was late, the cooks took to long cuz they were busy" In reality it was the server who wasnt paying attention or talking to a friend instead.

Where is our money going? Its unfortunate, most market affairs have a balance, an equilibrium, however with fuel; prices have gone up but I havent observed a dramatic wage increase nor a price decrease in anything other than a dollar raise to minimum wage, which does nothing for the salary earners. Where o where has my gas money gone, where o where could it beee? You know those "missing person" cards you get in the mail q9345times a day? I wonder what the reaction would be if "Gas money" was put on one of those distributions?

If you find my gas money, please ask it if it knows where my cigarette money has gone. Another unjustified expense. A certain friend of mine smokes cigars that are packaged almost identically to that of a cigarette, he pays 8 bucks for his carton. So who's brother in law gets that extra tax money?

[M&N]

What if there was a way we could use Salt Water to power cars?
Then what look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo

This may seem like a movie on cancer but watch all the way through.

Now imagin that running a car moter