Things that shouldn't be found on this site...

[Yasuragi]

It appears that I'm in a minority, but I would like to put this out there to see what everyone has to say.

In another thread, entitled "videos," I postulated that clips of unsafe and/or unintelligent airsofting should only appear accompanied by a disclaimer stating, "This is what NOT to do." It seems to me that posting a video of kids playing in their front yard is a huge liability for both the website and the airsoft community in general.

I have recently experienced the twisting words of the media in regards to my place of work. In short, the (former) owner of a local business claimed that my store, which is part of a corporation, put him out of business. The feelings of the community seem to be that he did himself in, due to high prices, low stock, and poor customer service. However, the local paper jumped at the chance to do a smear job on the story, misquoting local residents, incorrectly reporting statistics and facts, and generally trying to cause a stir. It failed, but then again, this wasn't a major concern for many people.

However, any journalist wanting to drag airsofting through the mud could use "stupid" videos and the comments made about them to cause a much greater stir. Not to mention what would happen if a child (or adult even) who was injured or, Kevin forbid, shot by officers, were to state that he saw something similar to his actions on this site. The media would have a field day!

In conclusion, I just want to know how those of you here on the site feel about the liability issues of having questionable material on the site. I put this in the Suggestions sub-forum because I want to draw the attention of the moderators, while also hearing from the other users. This subject is also a quasi-suggestion, as I feel that the mods could step in when they see material adversely portraying airsofters.

[D_Man]

I totally agree with you and admire your concern for the community. And in fact, there are already rules in place to prevent what you have refered to:

First, I site the following from the Off-Topic forum rules, updated 5-28-06:

Keep it OFF TOPIC. In other words, don't post about airsoft in here. That's what the rest of the forum is for.

Thusly, the videos, being about airsoft, are unfit for off-topic consumption, and the posts involving them shall be removed.

Now, for any future sharing of such videos, or even pictures of airsofters doing questionable/illegal/dangerous act(s) shall first be preceeded by a warning in the post detailing that the video is not condoned by Airsoft Ohio and has no connection to the community.

Sound Better? ;)

[TheBanker]

I share your concern, but I wonder what benefit a disclaimer brings. If someone's stupid enough to mimic stupid videos, then they're not going to care about our disclaimer. Furthermore, a journalist looking for a story is not going to care about our disclaimers, nor will they include a mention of its existance in their story. The only benefit is that it makes us feel better about allowing stupid videos.

In an op, otherwise irresponsible children might rise to the occassion in the presence of us old folks, but in their backyard, there's nothing stopping them from doing stupid things after seeing an idiot do it on Airsoft Ohio.

I would support first first publicly defining what a stupid movie is, then banning stupid videos.

[Miyagi]

Well said yas!!!!!
We as airsofters need to monitor our sport and hobby. You know the antigun activists are!!!!
Kids(under 18) running around shooting themselves and acting like fools is something we cant control. But parents who buy these guns for them can. Dont get me wrong, not all underaged people are irresponsible and wreckless like the ones in the video. But here's a thought: In public, we have underaged people who are using airsoft guns that should be legally owned by someone who is 18 or older!!!!!!!! Are the parents around when they are using them at events? NO. Most of the time they dont even know what their children are doing while playing airsoft. Perfect example: During Blind Fury 3, I saw numerous underaged people with their goggles off at their regen area. If one of those underaged people would have got their eye shot out.......guess what happens, their parents would have called every newspaper and TV station giving them a sob story that their son or daughter got their eye shot out in a dangerous sport. Are you a A**H*** for yelling at them for doing it? I say not!!!!! I think their parents would thank you and they would too!!!!!!!

[smokeythebear]

Originally posted by TheBanker
I share your concern, but I wonder what benefit a disclaimer brings. If someone's stupid enough to mimic stupid videos, then they're not going to care about our disclaimer. Furthermore, a journalist looking for a story is not going to care about our disclaimers, nor will they include a mention of its existance in their story. The only benefit is that it makes us feel better about allowing stupid videos.

In an op, otherwise irresponsible children might rise to the occassion in the presence of us old folks, but in their backyard, there's nothing stopping them from doing stupid things after seeing an idiot do it on Airsoft Ohio.

I would support first first publicly defining what a stupid movie is, then banning stupid videos. I agree bank about the mimicing studid videos ( cyma kills a mans family jewels which was recently posted not actual topic name but more obvieis

[Texx]

Originally posted by TAC Miyagi
Perfect example: During Blind Fury 3, I saw numerous underaged people with their goggles off at their regen area. If one of those underaged people would have got their eye shot out.......guess what happens, their parents would have called every newspaper and TV station giving them a sob story that their son or daughter got their eye shot out in a dangerous sport.

I hope you griped them out royally and I would hope other airsofters would do the same. If it makes you an A--hole to be concerned for someone else's safety, then its better be thought an ******* for trying to be safe than remain quietly apathetic and have kids get hurt. Put the fear of god into them, they can follow the rules and participate, or try playing with your boot in their ***. Or to use a little more tact, say "Hey morons, put your goggles back on so I can shoot you."

[Miyagi]

We're on the same page texx..........

[Yasuragi]

The importance of the disclaimer is that it provides concrete evidence that the community is not condoning, but condemning the action. I'm not a computer whiz, so I don't know if there is a way to prove when something was edited (say by a mod, since that doesn't show in the post), but having it their gives airsofters a leg to stand on when called into question. If the accompanying posts say, "Hey, look at these complete idiots. To all those new to airsoft (and veterans also), this is what not to do," then that shows to anyone who cares to do an accurate study that those actions are not condoned or tolerated. Without the disclaimer, any legal/media issues that might arise will come down to, "Well, yeah, we did laugh at it and make fun of it, and no, we didn't say we disapproved, but we really DO disapprove, honest!" It all comes down to you can't be too careful...

As for defining a "stupid video," that would be anything prominently featuring irresponsible/unsafe airsoft practices, such as the late Daemon's "pain games," playing in public places, and playing without proper eyewear/safety precautions. However, I think that these videos do serve a purpose, akin to the propaganda videos shown to schoolchildren in the 50's and 60's about sex and drugs. Using these as teaching tools can work well, provided that they are not laughingly dismissed. And who knows, perhaps seeing the community here condemning and criticizing these actions MIGHT just save some poor schub's eyesight, or even his/her life.

P.S. Sorry if some of the grammar is off, I just got back from a party...

[output01x]

Originally posted by Yasuragi
The importance of the disclaimer is that it provides concrete evidence that the community is not condoning, but condemning the action. I'm not a computer whiz, so I don't know if there is a way to prove when something was edited (say by a mod, since that doesn't show in the post), but having it their gives airsofters a leg to stand on when called into question. If the accompanying posts say, "Hey, look at these complete idiots. To all those new to airsoft (and veterans also), this is what not to do," then that shows to anyone who cares to do an accurate study that those actions are not condoned or tolerated. Without the disclaimer, any legal/media issues that might arise will come down to, "Well, yeah, we did laugh at it and make fun of it, and no, we didn't say we disapproved, but we really DO disapprove, honest!" It all comes down to you can't be too careful...
The thing is, by simply having such videos on this website, reguardless of whether a disclaimer is used, it still appears as though the community is condoning it. Personally, I vote to make all questionable/illegal/dangerous airsoft videos and pictures inappropriate to be put on this forum (as D_Man already suggested). Airsoft Ohio should be about the proper play of airsoft as a serious hobby/sport.

[Yasuragi]

Are you telling me that disclaimers mean nothing? They could make a world of difference in a court of law, which is why our beloved retailers, such as Airsoft Arms, put one on every page that contains a gun. This clearly shows to anyone who wishes to look that the guns are NOT sold as toys, and should not be treated as such. This protects the retailer in the long run from liability issues and also shows that they are responsible adults who know right from wrong. Yes, banning the videos would work fine, but by (semi)publicly showing that the airsoft community does not approve of unsafe/irresponsible play, it increases our credibility and legitimacy. And as I said before, it could have a positive impact on someone's life to see what not to do. I wasn't going to admit this, but when I got my first cheap springer, I had it outdoors in front of my apartment building, showing it to my neighbor, in full view of the road twenty feet away. I live in a neighborhood that has problems with guns and drugs every once in a while, and I could have easily been arrested for my actions. As soon as I began researching airsoft, I realized how stupid that was, and immediately began to keep it under cover whenever I was outside, usually in a bag. So yeah, I believe that these videos can go a long way towards educating people, if utilized in the right manner.

[TheBanker]

Originally posted by Yasuragi
Are you telling me that disclaimers mean nothing? They could make a world of difference in a court of law...

In a court of law, yes. In a court of public opinion, no. Do you think any upset parent is going to care that we had a disclaimer? Will Channel 10 News decide *not* to run their story because we had a disclaimer? Of course not. The legal system is a concern, sure, but public opinion will be the real killer.

[Miyagi]

YAS AND TEXX, check out the post "axe bomb" in the general discussion section. Here's another example of things that ruin our sport/hobby.

[Miyagi]

Thank you to whoever deleted that "axe bomb" posting!!!!!! Banker?

[Yasuragi]

Banker, there are always people out to stir trouble up, yes. But wouldn't the ability to stand up to the media and say, "We clearly stated that we are trying to prevent these type of actions, in order to educate the masses," be an ace in the hole? The media, even more than scandal I think, loves a good argument/conflict. If something were to happen and airsoftohio.com ended up in the news due to misuse of weapons and/or safety practices, there would be others willing to back us up just to create an argument. However, if all we as a community had to say was, "We didn't mean for this," it puts us at a moral disadvantage.

Yes, banning the videos would be the most protective measure the site could take, but I think that the stupidity of some players has merit when used to educate others. I brought up the disclaimers as an alternative to what I have seen, which is most users posting how funny these videos are. If the moderators of the site decide to ban them, then that is a giant step in the right direction. I just believe that there is potential for a section of the site showcasing practices, attitudes, and behaviors that are unsafe and that will not be tolerated by the people who run events and stores. I PMed Locutus about this in regards to Daemon's degenerate pain thread. The Hall of Infamy seems to say to me that the population finds this funny, not dangerous. A Hall of, I don't know, Degenerate Stupidity is the concept that I am promoting.

Tac, I'm not sure if the axe bomb thread ended up degenerating, but it's gone, so I'm not sure if there was something other than the original idea that you are referring to. EDIT: Although I personally thought that the author, while not using the best materials, had a good idea in principle. An aerosol can spraying a nontoxic, nonirritant substance would have potential.

[TheBanker]

I understand what you're saying. What I disagree with you about is the videos' impact on stupid people. You seem to be saying that stupid people can be shown the error of their ways by showcasing stupid airsofters. However, I think stupid people KNOW they're stupid, choose to be that way, and enjoy it. Attention, fun, and an adrenalin rush are more important to them than self-respect (for example, the TV show Jackass). If you keep stupid videos, then stupid people will just watch them and laugh. They won't be enlightened, they won't change their behavior, and they might even feel emboldened to try to one-up what they saw on the video, because they know they'll get lots of attention if they do.

Thoreau said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." We should be showcasing good behavior, not bad.

[gertrude]

Originally posted by TheBanker
You seem to be saying that stupid people can be shown the error of their ways by showcasing stupid airsofters.

The idea isn't to show stupid people a video as an object, but rather to have our views on the object, ie, the ridicule, contempt and condemnation be the main focus of the thread, and by proxy the main focus of posting the video. If the person posting a video link says, "Hey look at this video," it's not only vague in the sense that we don't know what we're looking at, but it's also not very attractive to click, either. I think if we make sure that there is clarity concerning people doing stupid stuff, ie, "Hey you guys, you're not going to believe what some jerk put on the internet for us to ridicule him about," I think it will help. It seems to me that the young kids on the dueling-ghetto video were doing that to be "cool". As long as it is made clear that the person/people represented within the video is/are NotCool, I think we'll be alright in the eyes of the media.

Also, it helps, liability-wise, that we do not specifically have the videos on airsoftohio.com. As long as it's hosted elsewhere, we can feel pretty safe about discussing things. However, if there are pictures and other forms of media that we do host that do not present an honorable and proper image of how airsoft should be, then they should be taken off the server.

Having a disclaimer helps, but stupid people are stupid, and nothing we post on a web site is going to change that. The general idea is that if someone stupid comes to an airsoft website, it probably means that they are going to do something stupid with an airsoft gun at one time or another, no matter what we do or do not put on this site. If they're not in the community and do not wish to join it, we have no leverage/peer pressure over them- meaning, anything we say concerning those videos doesn't mean ****. It also means they're not going to be affiliated with us in any way and we have little to worry about except them doing something stupid on their own time. If they do want to join the community, trial and error combined with peer pressure will make them 'fit in,' ie, the 'bad apples' will be weeded out. Hopefully, with good enough community moderation and mods to doing their job, the trial and error period will be less painful not only for the person, but more importantly for the community (ie, not having them err and post something stupid that gets us negative media attention).

[Motis]

Amen I agree with Yasuragi completly

only problem is stupid people give the safe ones a bad rep even tho they didnt do anything wrong.

stupid airsoft videos could easily be used against all of us if someone is trying to do away with airsoft, so it would be best to make sure any content linked with this site is good stuff and try to keep our hands clean as possible.

after all airsoftohio is about good clean airsoft fun, and its also about keeping is safe at the same time so lets try to show that, because thats what were all about.

gertrude you do have a point, and I hope that the good of the community will be able to weed out the "bad apples" seems like we havent been to bad so far.

[BattlePriest]

I have not allowed the posting of videos of people doing stupid things with airsoft, for.... over a year now, over at ASF. Not long after "google videos" and youtube and other video hosting services came to be, it seemed we were getting more and more of these dangerous videos being posted everywhere.

I in as simple words as this:

From this day forward, the posting of vidoes from free video hosts, that include images of stupid people doing stupid things with airsoft replicas, is forbidden. And such videos posted will be deleted without explanation.

The problem is, that even with a disclaimer, by posting such videos, we are giving the ideas to those who do not read or understand the disclaimers. Not to mention, especially with younger airsofters... many seem to get entertainments from such videos. Why do you think shows like jackass get so popular? The majority of the unsafe videos that got posted at Airsoft Forum, were posted in the "Funny Stuff" forum, because the kiddies laughed thier butts off at them.

Google videos, (and the like) in addition to finally giving serious airsoft videographers a place to host thier wares for free, (as well as tons of other hobbyists) it unfortunately also gave to keys to every ignorant, stupid, darwin award winning brat who has the money to own a video camera.

Now I have seen several very serious and well donw event videos at google vids, but the amount of idiocy that comes with them, keeps me away. I personaly refuse to host my videos there, just so that they wont be affilliated with the crap that fills the servers.

I pay for my own video hosting, and I urge other airsoft videographers to do the same, lest you get grouped in with all the morongs who post dangerous videos of idiots doing idiotic things, that you see so often on free video hosts.

[TheBanker]

What he said. :)

It's possible to condemn poor behavior without demonstrating it. Regardless, someone who chooses to behave poorly doesn't care whether you approve or not. If you give them a bad video on one hand, and a reasoned argument against it on the other hand, which hand do you think they're going to care about?

To make sure I'm reading all of this right, it looks to me like we're all in agreement that we should textually/verbally condemn poor airsoft behavior. The question remaining is whether to allow videos of bad airsoft behavior or not, and we seem pretty split on that. Of course, this is all academic because none of us have the power to make that decision.

[Miyagi]

Great closing banker!! We could go on and on but I think we wont.
If everyone would do what's right for the sport, we ALL would be happy!!!!!!

Airsoft police? If it comes down to it, everyone needs to be!!!!!!!!!

Hope to see you all at NW3!!!!!!

[slicknickpro]

I was the one that posted a link to my teammates youtube account. Not to be confused with the kid hitting himslef in the nads link which is the kids playing in the front yard. I didnt know that it would cause such a disturbance. I am not sure if I am being considered as a stupid airsofter or not because I got a strike and a post deleted. It could be because of the "I need a clip" remark in one of the more movie like things that my friend has. I am hoping that there is a rule somewhere that I cant find that tells you you arent aloud to post "homemade" airsoft videos or that it is because they were airsoft videos in the off topic forum. I am looking for an explanation and if somone could give it to me it would really help. I am sorry and I never thought that the link to our videos would be tought of as negative view of airsoft... Ummm not the right time to say dublin is it?

P.S. Motis was in that link as well as me.

[Texx]

I feel the "stupid airsoft videos" are just as much a liability as the bi-monthly "stupid airsofter in the news" threads we get.

It doesn't really matter what we portray as being right or wrong on the forums. A person who has little or no reason to give us the benefit of the doubt will find damaging material no matter what we do.

Airsoft is played as a combat game which simulates violence, death, and destruction. I'm sorry but how exactly can that be spun to be a good thing? When you discuss that hobby, you are immediately giving the anti-airsoft crowd fodder to use however they like.

These Airsoft videos are out there whether we want to discuss them or not. No amount of disclaimer is going to free this community from scrutiny from a crowd that is already out to demonize this hobby and its participants.

Personally, I'd rather see these videos come up and have the community condemn them rather than being left out of the loop. These videos gives the community the chance to see where we are failing and try to address the issues so that our other "idiots" will know where the community stands.

Maybe it does encourage stupid behavior, but telling an idiot not to rob a convenience store can also encourage them. These aren't exactly rational responsible people, here. And I think we should take the opportunity to point them out whenever possible.

These vidoes and pictures are out on the web. We need to do damage control when they come out, rather than ignore them and hope they go away.

We need to be looking at these videos as mature and responsible airsofters and not immediately jump on about stupidity or such. Give the video a mature and responsible critique and discuss what we believe is wrong about the subject. And then promote proper mature and responsible behavior.

[Yasuragi]

Thank you, Texx, at least someone agrees with me. Although I think you put my points better than I have yet done.