Survey for "Milsim" event in mid-late summer

[Decoy]

From the same idiots (:D ) who brought you OP: Slash and Burn

6MM is thinking of co-organizing a game and wanted to get a feel for the level of interest for a game of this style. We’re looking to do “milsim” is a slightly different light. This game would simulate and Air Borne operation (think of We We’re Soldiers) into a foreign land.

This event, if it is conceived would be at Springfield. Cost shouldn’t be any higher than $30 (most likely less). Full one day event. Schedule will not conflict with John Lu games. Age: 16+

Some differences from other games that are out there now include:
Rehashed “Respawn” rules along with medic rules (down time is more variable)
Possibly adding “semi fire only” to the game (exceptions made for support weapons)
Objectives that are critical to overall mission success
Objectives that may influence ease of completion of other objectives
Intel “Fog of war” concerning opponents objectives and objective scoring
Possibly have bbs provided (more than 1 or 2 small bags)
Forces enter field at variable times/rates
Plus much, much more.

Nothing is set in stone yet. If you’re interested please let us know. The more interest we have, the more likely this event will occur.

[Dutton]

I'm sure the 86th would be interested.

[BLACK SE7EN]

Sounds good so far.

[sniper5990]

I would definately go.

[Violator]

You're going to have to justify the $30 dollar cost for a Springfield game. Changing the rules around a little bit won't be enough to get me dropping that kinda cash for admission.

[Decoy]

If you think about what is above, we're looking at providing bbs. If we provided 1 standard bag per player, that covers the price difference from a Springfield "pick-up" game to this one.


The $30 (odds are would be less) is to cover props used, bbs (assuming we provide them for all players) and radio rental (at least for organizers / COs, more depending on level of interest). Out of the props, some that we're looking at are 1 time use only. The field fee would be set to recover invested funds, with a potential for a small "profit". But that is entirely dependent on how many people attend.

[Violator]

I have no problem with somebody making a small profit on a game. After all, games are work to put together. But I take issue with the other items.

BB's - I don't think giving a bag of bb's away to everyone is bad idea for a paintsoft game. Those types of games tend to attract all levels of airsoft players, including the low end. But when you host a milsim event, you typically get higher level players, especially those that swear by certain equipment. This includes BBs. I know some guys who think Stealth bb's are amazing and that Excels stink. The point is, I'd rather pay the $15 on my own and get the BBs I want then pay $15 for someone else to give me BB's I may not necessarily be able to use (in the case of Systema PTWs, some BBs have actual noticeably decreased performance). I like that you're trying to come up with new ideas for events, but I'm just adding some constructive criticism here.

Radio Rental - Again, you can apply the same guidelines with radio rental. Most paintsoft players may not have or need a radio...but theres a high likelihood that regular milsim players own and use radios. If you plan this to be a milsim event, there is probably no need to do some of the things you mention.

Just some thoughts.

edit: spelling.

[Decoy]

Your constructive critisism is noted. But let me count with why we have these add ons.

BBs - Providing the bbs is not as much of a courtesy as it sounds. This is to regulate the amount or bbs accessable on the field. For example, a typical soldier (in real life) may carry X amount of ammo per mission/deployment. He doesn't have access to X plus whatever amount without re-supply missions. So in an airsoft equivalent, by providing bbs we can leave each player with Y amount (airsoft equivalent of X) and then provide additional bbs once certain things on the field happen (i.e. a request from the command). This should also help push for the 'semi-auto only' gameplay, should we choose to use it. Reloading would only occur where the spare bbs are located. Whether it be an ammo depot, "respawn" location or by ammo drops.

Radios - Originally for Organizers and COs. Additionals may be available for platoon leaders/squad leaders to maintain communication on the hilly terrain. The purpose is this, you're cut off from your CO, and your team is running low on bbs. Without your CO having direct reliable communication with the organizers or with you, your CO will have a difficult time trying to get a re-supply mission near your location.

[Snake Eyes]

Decoy,
Your event sounds great and well thought out! I'm very glad when people take the burden upon themselves to have milsim events, as we all know it takes a lot of hard work. I will support your event and I appreciate what you are doing for the airsoft community! As soon as I get a date I can confirm whether or not I can attend. Keep up the good work!

-Snake Eyes

EDIT:

The radio thing is a great idea. Anyone that has ever been at Springfield with a normal $50-$75 radio knows that they are SEVERELY underpowered for that field. That is one of the reasons our team upgraded our radios is to ensure proper communication at that field and others like it.

[Iceman]

Violator, believe us when we say that we would not do stuff just for poops and giggles. I understand what you are saying about high-end bb's, but there is a method to the madness. All we are doing right now is just gauging interest in the event. Even with the entrance fee, I have a feeling that we are going to be eating alot of the cost for the event. I have no problem doing that, the event is going to be fun. Plus, I really don't think $30 is all that much. Lets face it, we don't play a cheap sport, and you are carrying a more expensive gun onto the field than some cars a person may drive to the field........ Just a thought.

[CAR15A2]

I would consider coming to this game, depending on my schedule. I am always in favor people organizing more "milsim" games and I will support you if I can.

[stewb_10]

as far as bbs, are you planning on just giving out .2s? because i know that when i go to OPs i run .25s exclusively (KSC, marui, or AE if i can, but if i have to use stealths so be it, either way i run .25s).

[Decoy]

We haven't "shopped around" yet for our needs. But the plan to date is to have both .2s and .25s available. "Sniper" bbs would have to be provided by the players themselves.

[ilvfly]

i would attend an event like this.... sounds like fun and 30 bucks isnt all that much money for a full day of milsim airsoft...


HOOT

[HardLock]

Decoy,

I am SO glad someone else is stepping up to organize high end games. I am almost burned out from prepping for BF3. People just don't realize the cost and amount of time it takes to pull such a game off. I WILL be there to support your effort. :)

BTW: I like the idea of semi-auto only.

[ilvfly]

I dont know why people critsize so much when someone is attempting to put something together like this? it sounds like fun and should be fairly organized.... i dont think the strikers would let just anyone rag tag person put together an event on their field... just think about what someone is taking on when telling them its not going to work... ill support this event to the fullest extent

HOOT

[AlphaSix]

Originally posted by Decoy
Nothing is set in stone yet. If you’re interested please let us know. The more interest we have, the more likely this event will occur. [/B]

TF216 would attend. It sounds like a good time.

PS: It's okay with us if you guys make some $$ in the process hehehehe..

[colossus]

this sounds like alot of fun i'll be there(if you host it)

[strikers_blade]

Let's face it, $30 for an event is about the price that you will pay for an event in Ohio right now; DH was 20$+, Red Dragon are 25$ I think, SS2 was $45, BF3 is $40-45 (for 2 days), etc.

For an event just thrown together, perhaps $30 is a bit steep but most of organizers in OH provide high quality events and usually requiring days and weeks of preparation. Such events can't be considered lightly and the price attached to it is just a good way for the players to recognize the efforts and energy spent on the event. $30 is too expensive? let's go back to basic events like Fran Bar, Red Dragon or the monthly Springfield events (generally)....

[TheBanker]

I really like the idea of semi-auto only. I'd go to that.

About the ammo, I agree with your rationale about having a hard cap on ammo (which is why you're providing the BBs), but make sure the cap is low enough to matter. If the cap is 50,000 (I'm exhaggerating of course), it's trivial. Make the cap low/realistic enough that I really feel the pinch if I pull Rambo. That also opens the door for resupply missions. Just imagine your motivation if you know that your failure means your men don't get resupplied.

I'm a big fan of logistics, so I'm always happy to see more emphasis on things besides just hitting someone with BBs.

[Decoy]

As of now, which all resides in our heads at this point, the "standard" loadout will be in the ballpark of 600 bbs. Or 3 times the typical real steel loadout. Without getting too much into the details of the game, logistics will be a factor.

Fair warning, respawn will take more time than previous milsim games.

Honestly, I am surprised that this many people are willing to go to semi-only. We hope that it'll add something more to the game...at no additional cost ;).

To put to rest any possible concerns with the scenarios, we've been toying/planning these scenarios for over a year. We've been waiting for the right field, access to the right props, and for the community to be more accepting of the game.

[solution_zero]

You can count all the I.M.C.O. guys in.

[Violator]

Decoy -

If you're talking about providing high-powered radios (like the Strikers have), thats a totally different ballpark. I was under the impression you were going to hand out FRS radios - which I think most would agree is pointless, especially at Springfield.

I still don't see the logic in planning to give out BB's. There are too many people with different needs. Regulating BB's is like forcing everyone to use the same gun. Even though I see what you are trying to accomplish, I oppose the idea based on the reasons I've already given.

Based on the posts in this thread, it appears I'm simply wrong to say that other people will have a problem with the BB issue.

Have fun at the game.

[Fresh]

I am sure a few of us would be interested in the event.

[Decoy]

Violator,
Yes, we are talking about High Powered Radios.

As for the bbs, depending on your concerns (and we want to know all you concerns now, so we can decide on a solution if needed) which I assume are performance related, we're going to be talking to specific people in our "shopping around". These people have a history to providing top quality, as well as being familiar with high end guns. So in other words, if they work with us to fill our needs there should be no performance issues with the bbs, even in PTWs. Once we find our "supplier", we'll know what brand / weight bbs we'll be getting, and post that BEFORE a closing of registration for this event. That way you can decide if what we have is good enough for you expensive gun ;) . This also is assuming that we'll provide the bbs. In fact, if those of you have particular brands that you WILL NOT use in your guns, let us know so we can avoid those.

[Hillslam]

Host it, and they will come....

I am in! Bring it on, and thanks in advance for the effort.

Also, love the ammo idea for all the reasons you've stated Decoy.

[Link]

The ideas of this game intrigue me.

Reading all the discussion about supplying bb's, though, has led me to a thought. Would it be possible and as effective to, first of all, limit the mags each person has (limited to 300 rds via low/standard/mid cap mags), and, secondly, prohibit reloading of said magazines (with each person's OWN bb's they brought for themselves, I might add) until those resupply missions/ orders from command come through.

Keep the limits, just use your own ammo. Is that missing something? Just too simple?

At any rate, I think the price is fair enough and the missions sound cool.

[TVCasualty]

schedule pending, you have our support!

[Shogun]

Sounds like a good idea so far, I hope to be there.

[King]

I'm like TVCasualty. If most of the 91st can come, then count us in. We need more milsim events.
-King

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Decoy
That way you can decide if what we have is good enough for you expensive gun ;)

I justed wanted to point out that Violator is not being a BB snob because he has an expensive gun, for some reason the PTW does NOT work well with certain BBs. They seem to work the best with Systema BBs (imagine that), but Stealth/AE BBs do not work well AT ALL.

I do know there are about 10 players in the Ohio area that use a PTW, so it is a valid concern.

Maybe you could hit up Wallace for a Systema BB sponsorship ;) (never hurts to ask!)

[THX]

Id like to see how the limited ammo idea pans out. Id be up for it. I like the idea of using "field" ammo as long as its of the highest quality because it isnt just about managing ammo quantities, its also about managing ammo distribution at that point. Hell Id even be OK with standard mags only. I dont like semi-only if the ammo and mags are managed "realistically". If someone wants to burn their ammo then let them. You may want to make sure that there are other activities that people who have run out of ammo can do.

[shortman_aug]

Age Limit?

[Decoy]

Originally posted by Locutus
I justed wanted to point out that Violator is not being a BB snob because he has an expensive gun, for some reason the PTW does NOT work well with certain BBs. They seem to work the best with Systema BBs (imagine that), but Stealth/AE BBs do not work well AT ALL.

I do know there are about 10 players in the Ohio area that use a PTW, so it is a valid concern.

Maybe you could hit up Wallace for a Systema BB sponsorship ;) (never hurts to ask!)

I have NO experience with PTWs, so I don't/didn't think Violator is a bb snob. I want to provide what will work so that we can get as many people together who may enjoy this event.

As for hitting up Wallace, I've been trying to get in contact with him about the bbs...not so much for "sponsorship", but info on where do get those nice "rice bags" of bbs he has brought to past event. But sposorship does sound like a good idea :D.

Age Limit?

On the first post of the thread, 16.

[Link]

For how much work it sounds like you're putting into this 'field bb's' idea, it doesn't sound worth it.

Honestly, when people show up, have them put their own bb's into bottles or baggies (like sandwich bags), write their name on each one (so those who use better, heavier, or specific bb's get their own back), and take control of their ammo. Supplying the ammo isn't going to keep people from bringing their own (my ammo is stashed with my gear anyway).

I really don't see what you're trying to do by supplying the ammo that you couldn't do with the ammo people bring themselves.

Keep costs down and leave that bit out.

[Decoy]

Originally posted by Link
For how much work it sounds like you're putting into this 'field bb's' idea, it doesn't sound worth it.

Honestly, when people show up, have them put their own bb's into bottles or baggies (like sandwich bags), write their name on each one (so those who use better, heavier, or specific bb's get their own back), and take control of their ammo. Supplying the ammo isn't going to keep people from bringing their own (my ammo is stashed with my gear anyway).

I really don't see what you're trying to do by supplying the ammo that you couldn't do with the ammo people bring themselves.

Keep costs down and leave that bit out.

People bringing their own bbs would cause a problem with the concept of the game...especially if they carry their spares on their person. If someone is carrying spare bbs, then they wouldn't be dependent on re-supply missions, wouldn't have to worry about how many bbs they have left in their mags, etc. By providing bbs, and in turn limiting them, we'll in effect be enforcing the semi-auto only rule, as with a limited amount, make using full-auto all that more wasteful.

We could run this game for $15-$20. But you know what? If we cut out things to keep the costs down, then our event would drop out of the "milsim" category. And we don't run those types ;) .

[Link]

Supplying bb's won't keep anyone who wants to carry more ammo on their person from doing so. Back to the Honor system, here: If you tell them they can't carry more on their person, the good MilSim player won't. If you don't trust people to follow your rules, don't expect them to leave their own ammo at home.

Have players put your set amount of their own ammo into your labeled containers, and them make them leave all their extra locked in the car. Then you have control of the ammo, but you don't have to worry about anyone complaining about the wrong type of ammo.

Then, you could use the money you're saving on ammo to get more props, etc. I'm just trying to say there are other options, so you can effectively weigh out what will work best. I'm suggesting Ziplock-like sandwich bags and a sharpie marker. Cheap, effective, and you maintain control.

[Spook]

Decoy, this sounds like a WW 2 type event. Is it? There are number of elements that lead me to that conclusion, the two most obvious being an airborne drop and semi auto.

In any case, it sounds most interesting.

I look forward to hearing more.

[Decoy]

Originally posted by Link
Supplying bb's won't keep anyone who wants to carry more ammo on their person from doing so. Back to the Honor system, here: If you tell them they can't carry more on their person, the good MilSim player won't. If you don't trust people to follow your rules, don't expect them to leave their own ammo at home.

Have players put your set amount of their own ammo into your labeled containers, and them make them leave all their extra locked in the car. Then you have control of the ammo, but you don't have to worry about anyone complaining about the wrong type of ammo.

Then, you could use the money you're saving on ammo to get more props, etc. I'm just trying to say there are other options, so you can effectively weigh out what will work best. I'm suggesting Ziplock-like sandwich bags and a sharpie marker. Cheap, effective, and you maintain control.

Let me approach this from another angle that shows me that what I am talking about is less of a hassle. Supply drop for either side, bbs will be dropped at a specified location. EITHER side can grab the supply drop, depending on how the sides operate. So rather than have people essentially providing their opponents with their OWN bbs, we are looking to provide all of the bbs...that way if side 1's supply drop falls into the hands of side 2, they aren't stealing bbs from another player's personal stash...just the bbs provided.

I cannot see a away to effective regulate control the bbs, in a realistic manner, by allowing each player to have their own bbs being suuplied to them. Either people use the bbs we provide and complain that they may not be their favorite brand....or people complain that their "special" bbs we're effectively stolen by someone else, possibly on the other team. The first option appears to be a lot less prone to my getting a headache.

Originally posted by Spook
Decoy, this sounds like a WW 2 type event. Is it? There are number of elements that lead me to that conclusion, the two most obvious being an airborne drop and semi auto.

In any case, it sounds most interesting.

I look forward to hearing more.

Actually this is not a WW2 scenario. This is a vietnam/modern scenario. The airborne drop will consist of helocopters, providing flow of items on and off the field. As many of you know, the airborne units (paratroopers) still train/war game massive drops. But there is also the element of air cav, or simply infantry on helocopters.

The semi-auto serves 2 purposes. With the higher accountability that our soldier's have with their ammo is significantly higher than that of Vietnam. Even today the full-auto function on some real-steel infantry rifles have been removed/replaced. The other factor is that due to the high possibility of "spray and pray" even in limited ammo/magazine environment in airsoft. We've always wanted to run/push for more fire control within the events. We figured, what the hell?, and decided to give it a try this time.

While we have our overall theme "airborne/air cav assault". we are still putting together several smaller objectives to try to take this away from a total run and gun game. Strategy and tactics, assuming this works as we envisioned, will determine the outcome. Not how many guys can my team kill. Once we have a date set in stone (looking in late August) we'll provide much more infomation.

[Tanker671]

im interested and the supply drop sounds cool:)

[Spook]

I like the Marine Corps' name for large heliborne insertions: Vertical envelopment. Because of the LIC*s that have been occurring, rather than all out conflicts where massive parachute drops might be required, those big drops seem to have become a thing of the recent past.

Low Intensity Conflicts

[Snake Eyes]

Decoy,
I like the idea of everything so far. I say do whatever the heck you want, and those that want to complain simply don't come:D . I understand your reasoning, and I'm glad you are all taking the time to organize a game with different rules to make it interesting.

Any idea of a date?

Thanks!

* I personally like Airsoft Ellite BB's, but my $300 TM gun will shoot anything, so go ahead and get what you want;) .

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Snake Eyes
* I personally like Airsoft Ellite BB's, but my $300 TM gun will shoot anything, so go ahead and get what you want;) .

What does the price of your gun have to do with anything?

I see no reason to be a smart ***.

He asked for opinions and people are giving them.

[strikers_blade]

Come on guys, let's stay calm here. ecoy asked for opinions and suggestions. Nothing is set in ston e has he said.

Now, I think you guys argued enough about bbs. What about everything else?

[ilvfly]

i like the idea of a resupply... it makes things more realistic since we are going for a milsim event and for a "we were soldiers" type thing the resupply would be great.... as for the bb's once again i think it goes from person to person on preference of bb's... just like what each person adds to his gun its a personal preference.... i really couldnt care less but the bb's would be a nice touch... once again i support this event and will help out in any way necessary


HOOT

[Decoy]

Originally posted by Snake Eyes
Any idea of a date?


We're not set on any date yet. We should have a date chosen after we talk to a few people at BF3. One target date that we are considering is August 26th.

Locutus, Blade or anyone else, is there a better way to get ahold of Wallace other than PM on here? I don't have an e-mail address for him.


Thanks for the support guys.

[Snake Eyes]

Locutus,
I was just playing dude:) . Sorry I offended anyone:D. It had seemed like people were complaining about Decoy's decisions when they weren't even planning to go, but I could be totally misreading them too:) . That is one of the flaws of forums;) . Again, I'm sorry.:D

[Link]

I'm really not trying to complain so much as offer suggestions with the whole ammo thing. The ammo drop explanation really helped me see the whole picture of why supplying the ammo is necessary for the full realistic effect. To create a similar, though less realistic effect, the ammo drop could simply allow the team to reload at their base. I know it's not the same, so I won't take offense if you want to pass on that idea. Honestly, I'm not picky about my bb's, either, I just like to include everyone as much as possible.

Onto another topic, and not to glaze over it, the semi-auto only rule gives me mixed feelings. For the full effect you're creating, and to promote taking better shots, I really see how it would be a good idea and I'd sure give it a try to see how it floats. The other side is that whenever I've got targets at the edge of my range, I always throw a burst of 5 or 6 shots just to make sure one hits. The bb's will hit foliage, drop too soon, or simply veer with the wind, and the burst pretty much covers it all.

So if the idea is to not enforce a semi-auto rule, but rather to limit ammo in such a way that semi-auto is the player's own choice, I would feel much better. For instance, if I could let loose a few quick rounds into an unsuspecting enemy, I would score a hit right off. On semi-auto, I might miss the first and only surprise shot I've got, leading to a shoot-out that may very well lose me more ammo than the initial burst.

Again, I'm not trying to complain or even argue against any idea, I'm trying to give my view (with support) in an attempt to discuss the variety of available options.

And just to be clear, if the final decisions include field ammo, semi-only, and $30 a person, I'd still sign up to come because this really does sound like a thoroughly planned and interesting event.

[Decoy]

This is a survey, we want to hear people's opinions.

For everything we're planning on doing, there is more than one reason as to why we're doing it.

I cannot go too much more into the ammo drops without giving away much more of the event than we want to at this stage. Depending on what side you end up on will determine you're locations for reloading. The respawn locations will be reload points, would you expect "new" soldiers on the battlefied to not have a full loadout?

The semi-auto is something that several of us on the team wanted to try for a long time. The ammo limits should keep us from having to enforce the rule. When you think about it, removing full-auto doesnt take too much away from the game (at least for milsim). A Marine Gunnery Sgt once showed me that you can fire a weapon on semi nearly as fast as firing full auto. So if you want to put 5 or 6 rounds down range quickly, why do you need full-auto? Removing full auto also add/allow more tactics to be used as well as raising the bar skill wise across the field.


Ok, so I am not done with the battle over the bbs :D . Now is the time to voice your opinion for what brands of bbs are NOT acceptable. I think we'll be looking at TM, Airsoft Elite, Guarder (maybe, I havent used these myself) or Excel brands. So sound off!

[stewb_10]

a lot of people have problems with excel and AE.. i think TMs should be great..

[Fish Head]

Decoy,
This event has potential, I like much of what you guys are talking about, from loadout limits to resupply drops. I am new to airsoft, but I have been WWII reenacting for 5 plus years (and paintball for 15 yrs, but don't hold that against me) and we do simulated "Airborne" Drops at least once a year. If you would like any feedback, ideas, or assistance in general, you can use us as a sounding board.
We just did a night time "drop" 2 weeks ago and even though most of the guys have been doing this for 20 plus years, we still learned some new stuff that we will be applying to our next event. One of the main things we tried was dropping the troops with one magazine of ammo, that makes finding the resupply bundle a crucial mission. That might not work for your event, but the tension caused by a limited supply of ammo is real and it adds a whole new aspect to the game. It forces you to choose targets wisely and perhaps even avoid certain engagements, if possible, until you manage to resupply.
I look forward to reading further posts, to see how things progress. Airsoft is touted as so much better than paintball due to its realism, but if the ammo is inexhaustible, what is the difference except not worrying about getting paint on your expensive gear? (I do not mean to start anything, I too prefer airsoft over paintball)...

[Lt. Sexpanther]

sounds good to me.

[Specter357(2nd)]

i will go for sure, i have one more who will go, i love the idea of running low on ammo, but i am not to thrilled about the semi only rule. but hey i will try almost anything once.

[Snake Eyes]

I am unfortunately out of town the weekend of August 26th. Is that for sure or did you possibly decide on a different date? Thanks!

[Decoy]

Unfortunately we're pretty settled on the 26th of August. We've got several team members we need to have there at the event, and that is one of the few weekends they have off of work.

I am awaiting final word on one potential bb sponsor who'd provide Systema bbs, so no more *****ing from you PTW users :D . We'll also look into another sponsor/donor/retailer to get 0.25g bbs as well.

A listing for this event should be posted within the next week or two. This event will be a Tan Camo vs a Green Camo event. No more woodland marpat with the Tan side. We're still debating which side ACU should end up on.

[Snake Eyes]

I understand. Please take some pics of the event:D

[strikers_blade]

What do you mean no more MARPAT on TAN side????
:D

But Yes, MARPAT is definately not with TAN anymore...finally.

[Decoy]

"Official" Posting and Storyline

http://www.airsoftohio.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10867